Improvements To Modified SDA SRS 1.2TL Crossover

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  • evhudsons
    evhudsons Posts: 1,175
    edited October 2011
    Per excellent Polk Forum information by the founding SDA upgrade forefathers I ordered the Solen 16mH 14 ga from Tania at Partsconnexion. She said she would have a guy named Chris do the actual ordering. She was quite pleasant.

    I'm glad I ordered before I saw those last posts (with the exception of the side conversations). It would have delayed my ordering and given me too much pause for thought. I have the money now so might as well get what I can afford and is agreed upon to be a good upgrade from stock. Thanks again DarqueKnight on continuing the overall discussions of the inductors on your thread. Although I don’t understand most of it technically I did pick up the gist of it at least to make an informed decision.

    Being a psych major who changed careers I do have one bit of advice for behavior modification when needed. Pay attention to behavior you would like to see (reward), and ignore behavior you would not like to see (punishment. Paying attention even in "punishing" the traditional way gives way to reward).

    Of course behavior modification is not as fun and rewarding as speaker modification. Personally I don't have time for the behavior mods, possibly one reason I quit my job and moved to Key West.

    Excellent classic thread despite hijacking at Post #162
    Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    EV, I seem to recall TOOLFORLIFEFAN saying that Chris messed up his order and that's why he ordered directly from Solen. You might want to PM TFLF to verify this and take preemptive action if necessary.

    I have asked a mod to do a thread cleanup.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited October 2011
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    I am attaching some comments from Matthew Polk and Stu Lumsden (Polk's engineering VP) on air core vs. steel core inductors and on the recommended low DCR inductor modification.

    Also, for reference, the measured values of the Solen 16mH inductors used in my 1.2TL's was 15.4mH each. The measured values of the Northcreek 16mH inductors was 14.92mH and 14.84mH.

    Thanks for that article.

    It actually supports the case for trying the Erse Super Q's (at least in SDA 2B's which have lower power handling capabilities making them less likely to saturate the inductors before driver distortion than SRS's or SRS 1.2's/1.2TL's) if they actually live up to the words Erse has written about them.

    Your findings that the replacement 16mh air cores you tried measured a bit under labelled value also make me more comfortable with the 15mh 14 gauge as Erse (Erse claims) are very close tolerence to published rating. I really prefer 14 gauge over their 16 gauge version, so you've posted the tiebreaker I needed.
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited October 2011
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    First you say this: ....................................................................

    Then you come to another thread desperately seeking attention.

    You keep saying you are an **** like it is something to be proud of.

    I realize that your mother did not think very highly of you and as a result you suffer from low self esteem, deep feelings of inferiority and stunted emotional growth. I suspect this is why you need to turn everything into a contest that you need to win. However, I hope you will make some attempt to see through all the hurt and pain from your childhood and realize that an audio forum is not the appropriate venue to seek assistance or resolution for those issues. There are many competent mental health professionals that can help you heal.

    Yes Ray, I think you have pointed out one of the reasons "bubbles" feels the way he does. The reason he has pointed out that he's an "****" is he is actually asking for help; also the reason he's seeking attention in general. I do think his childhood was a nightmare and cannot yet get past the resentment he feels towards his mother. He does absolutely need to do this to get past feeling the way he does.

    "Bubbles", you need to sit quietly and concentrate without thinking for 10 minutes everyday. You will find (if done in an honest, serious way) that the resentment you feel towards your mother will "show" itself to you and you will be able to get past it. It's not you allowing yourself to get past it, but another source much more powerful. Give it a try.

    Greg
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • evhudsons
    evhudsons Posts: 1,175
    edited October 2011
    Thanks DK, I saw that posted and so gave them the Solen item number from Solen's site. I will contact them tomorrow just to verify that they got it right.

    I'm pretty sure we can all raise our hands in "aye" for removing excess bubbles from your thread. Please feel free to amend mine too of any reference to him. I posted carefully enough that key paragraphs can be deleted and still leave my post in good standing.

    I hope all of our mods turn out great!

    By the way, I love your artwork and the simplicity of your home.
    Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    Thanks for that article.

    It actually supports the case for trying the Erse Super Q's (at least in SDA 2B's which have lower power handling capabilities making them less likely to saturate the inductors before driver distortion than SRS's or SRS 1.2's/1.2TL's) if they actually live up to the words Erse has written about them.

    OldmanSRS liked the Erse Super Q inductor in his SRS's:

    SDA SRS1.2 with Erse SuperQ inductor modification
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2011
    I have the Erse Super Q's in my 1C's. Definitely an improvement over stock. I have a nice pair of Solen's ready to go for whenever I start doing the CRS+'s. I haven't done any comparing, but I am looking forward to putting the CRS+'s together, probably a winter project. I have the 14 ga. Solens.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited October 2011
    nspindel wrote: »
    I have the Erse Super Q's in my 1C's. Definitely an improvement over stock. I have a nice pair of Solen's ready to go for whenever I start doing the CRS+'s. I haven't done any comparing, but I am looking forward to putting the CRS+'s together, probably a winter project. I have the 14 ga. Solens.

    Stock SDA 1C's use the exact same 16mh/18 gauge inductor as SDA 2B's.

    Which Super Q did you select (15mh/14gauge, 15mh/16 gauge or 17mh/16 gauge) ??
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    Stock SDA 1C's use the exact same 16mh/18 gauge inductor as SDA 2B's.

    Which Super Q did you select (15mh/14gauge, 15mh/16 gauge or 17mh/16 gauge) ??

    I used the 15
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited October 2011
    nspindel wrote: »
    I used the 15

    Sorry. I guess I missed the "14ga" in your post as I know 15mH is the highest value Erse supplies in 14ga.

    Does anyone know what using a lower value than the stock 16mH does sonically?

    I know the inductor is used to supress/cancel the Dimensional Array for the lowest frequncies. Does a lower 15mH value cancel SDA at a higher or lower frequency than a 16mH?
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
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  • audiocr381ve
    audiocr381ve Posts: 2,588
    edited October 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    Sorry. I guess I missed the "14ga" in your post as I know 15mH is the highest value Erse supplies in 14ga.

    Does anyone know what using a lower value than the stock 16mH does sonically?

    I know the inductor is used to supress/cancel the Dimensional Array for the lowest frequncies. Does a lower 15mH value cancel SDA at a higher or lower frequency than a 16mH?

    Good question! I'm curious too.
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  • OldmanSRS
    OldmanSRS Posts: 419
    edited October 2011
    16ga Erse Super Q will work fine. It's rated to handle 500W. The DCR is about 1/2 Ohm.

    Higher mH values reduce bass frequencies above 100 Hz in the SDA resulting in a perception of less bass boom but tighter more controlled deep bass. The difference between 15 mH and 17 mH is audible, around 1 to 2 dB.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited October 2011
    OldmanSRS wrote: »
    16ga Erse Super Q will work fine. It's rated to handle 500W. The DCR is about 1/2 Ohm.

    Higher mH values reduce bass frequencies above 100 Hz in the SDA resulting in a perception of less bass boom but tighter more controlled deep bass. The difference between 15 mH and 17 mH is audible, around 1 to 2 dB.

    Thanks, I found your response in the other thread. I guess we are cross-pollenating the inductor threads :mrgreen:

    If the 16 gauge is OK in your SRS's, I guess it be fine in 2B's with fewer drivers and less power handling capacity.

    I'm leaning toward trying your unwinding process if Erse can't produce a 16mH 14 gauge for me.
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    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    Reading through some of the threads about the drop in impedance with the inductor upgrade and I was wondering if anyone could chime in about the amps they are using with the new inductors.

    My amp is a Parasound HCA-3500 from the manual
    Minimum Speaker Impedance Precautions
    Although the HCA-3500 is capable of driving speakers with occasional impedance dips well below
    2 W, it is primarily designed to drive loudspeakers with a 4 W or 8 W nominal impedance. This is because
    sustained high power operation into loads of less than 4 W may cause overheating and subsequent thermal
    shutdown.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    Ok,
    So i got a quote for a standard and a Hepta-Litz inductor from parts connexion for the
    10ga 16mH inductor. which one do I need?
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited October 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    Reading through some of the threads about the drop in impedance with the inductor upgrade and I was wondering if anyone could chime in about the amps they are using with the new inductors.

    My amp is a Parasound HCA-3500 from the manual
    Minimum Speaker Impedance Precautions
    Although the HCA-3500 is capable of driving speakers with occasional impedance dips well below
    2 W, it is primarily designed to drive loudspeakers with a 4 W or 8 W nominal impedance. This is because
    sustained high power operation into loads of less than 4 W may cause overheating and subsequent thermal
    shutdown.

    I think you'll be OK. Even with the big Solen Inductors, the impedance is still around 3.2 ohms or a little higher.

    I'm using an Odyssey Stereo Stratos Plus without issues. It runs slightly warmer, that's all.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,418
    edited October 2011
    Which one is recommended for use in the 2.3TL's?
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    drumminman wrote: »
    I think you'll be OK. Even with the big Solen Inductors, the impedance is still around 3.2 ohms or a little higher.

    Don't confuse DC resistance with impedance:
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    The 1.2TL's DC resistance (not impedance) went down to 3.8 and 3.9 ohms. The impedance varied with frequency and was:

    1. Less than 4 ohms below 35 Hz.
    2. Between 4 and 10.5 ohms from 35-90 Hz.
    3. Between 4.5 and 9 ohms from 90-4 kHz.
    4. Less than 4 ohms above 4 kHz.

    DCR measurements are discussed in post #57 of this thread. Impedance plots are shown in post #65 of this thread.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    wow you are very very detailed thanks DK.. I should have gone back and read your post again..
    From what I am reading I believe my amp should be able to handle the impedance decently enough. Might generate a lot more heat though.

    The 3dB limits of the SDA SRS 1.2TL are 27 Hz and 23 kHz. The measured impedance at 27 Hz was 3.4 ohms. It rose to 4 ohms at 35 Hz and stayed in the range of 4 ohms to 10.5 ohms from 35 Hz to 4.5 kHz. From 4.5 kHz to 11 kHz the impedance was between 3 and 4 ohms. The impedance remained above 4 ohms from 11 kHz to 20 kHz.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    From what I am reading I believe my amp should be able to handle the impedance decently enough. Might generate a lot more heat though.

    My Parasound JC 1's run 10 degrees hotter after the inductor mod when playing music at moderately loud (90 dB-C) levels.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    My Parasound JC 1's run 10 degrees hotter after the inductor mod when playing music at moderately loud (90 dB-C) levels.

    your amp has a rating for 2 ohms whereas mine only has a rating for 4 ohms.
    From your graphs the impedance stays around 4 ohms above 35hz.. how often would the amp be driving below this rating.. off course depending on the song.
    Can I mail off your graph to parasound and see what they say? I have talked to the president Richard before.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    Can I mail off your graph to parasound and see what they say?

    Sure. I think that's a good idea.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    From Richard @parasound
    I receive SDA 1.2 inquiries on a regular basis. I reviewed the curves on the link you suggested. This is not a problem for the 3500. It would only be an issue if you were listening in an enormous room at ear-bleeding volumes.

    The 3500 probably won't run a lot hotter than at idle.
    It doesn't require a lot of air flow to keep it happy-mostly just to avoid stagnating hot air.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited October 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    From Richard @parasound
    I receive SDA 1.2 inquiries on a regular basis.

    Regular basis?

    The 1.2 must not be as rare and obscure as I thought.:razz:
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited October 2011
    I've not had any problem running any SDA, modified or not, on a Parasound amplifier, including JC-1 monoblocks. Why is this even a question? This isn't a child's amplifier brand and the SDA isn't that hardcore.
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited October 2011
    dorokusai wrote: »
    I've not had any problem running any SDA, modified or not, on a Parasound amplifier, including JC-1 monoblocks. Why is this even a question? This isn't a child's amplifier brand and the SDA isn't that hardcore.

    thekjck is worried that after he installs new 16 mH Solen inductors that the drop in impedance may present a difficult load for his amp to drive.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    dorokusai wrote: »
    I've not had any problem running any SDA, modified or not, on a Parasound amplifier, including JC-1 monoblocks. Why is this even a question? This isn't a child's amplifier brand and the SDA isn't that hardcore.

    The HCA-3500 says it can handle loads below 2 ohms as long as its not continuous. The amp runs extremely hot even when idling. Just for peace of mind I sent DK's graph to parasound.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited October 2011
    Just ordered my 10 gauge 16mH standard inductors from parts connexion. Cant wait to get started.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited October 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    Just ordered my 10 gauge 16mH standard inductors from parts connexion. Cant wait to get started.

    You will be a happy man!!! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on the size and weight of them.. LOL!!!

    Congrats!
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited November 2011
    HOLY CRAP MAN... how are you supposed to install these?
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