Improvements To Modified SDA SRS 1.2TL Crossover

Toolfan66

The people at parts connexion are a bunch of idiots!!! both times I have ordered from there have not been very positive.. I ended up paying the extra and ordering my inductors from Solen.

Ray,
The lady's email you gave me, she was out so she past on my email to some other guy who had no clue as to what I wanted even though I gave him all the info. I had to call twice to see what was going on and he finally sent me a quote as to what they would cost and he said they would cost like $38ea. I emailed him back saying something is wrong as they should be around $190ea. and if that price was right I would order 6 right now but I don't want to end up with something I did not need. he emailed me back and asked why I thought they should cost that much, thats when I didn't respond back and called Solen!!!

Time before that I had ordered some Dueland resistors and it was a struggle to get them to understand what I wanted, I asked to speak to someone else to get my order going..

thejck

thank you. i found them.

DarqueKnight

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

The people at parts connexion are a bunch of idiots!!! both times I have ordered from there have not been very positive.. I ended up paying the extra and ordering my inductors from Solen.

Sorry to learn of your trouble, especially since Parts Connexion's discounts on the merchandise and shipping were substantial.

I have always dealt with either Stephanie or Tania when ordering the Solen inductors and their service was excellent.

nspindel

Yeah, I got my Solens from Tania and she was great. Very helpful. Bought some Cardas binding posts from her as well, she discounted those without my even asking.

Toolfan66

Well thats good to know maybe it will be different next time...

Ray,

I don't know about you but my 1.2tl's sound soooooo good I am afraid to mess with them anymore, and I have some things already here to start building a cabinet to take my crossovers out of my speakers!!

DarqueKnight

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I don't know about you but my 1.2tl's sound soooooo good I am afraid to mess with them anymore, and I have some things already here to start building a cabinet to take my crossovers out of my speakers!!

Don't be afraid to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

drumminman

Man, I'm experiencing the same thing! The sound is soooo outstanding I'm starting to really think about whether or not to try out different tweaks as I don't want to take away what I have now!

drumminman

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Sorry to learn of your trouble, especially since Parts Connexion's discounts on the merchandise and shipping were substantial.

I have always dealt with either Stephanie or Tania when ordering the Solen inductors and their service was excellent.

I dealt with Tania as well and received very good service. I bought mine during the 20% off sale, and even though they were special order they gave me the discount. which saved something like $40 each.

inspiredsports

I'm re-reading these inductor posts before replacing the inductors in my TL'd 2B's.

One thought came to mind based upon information in one of the earliest posts describing a measured rise in inductance from 16.25 to 17mh based soley upon the presence of the 1/4" ferrous bolt used by Polk to mount the inductor/crossover assembly to the cabinet.

It's splitting hairs when considering design tolerences, but I'm guessing Polk took the presence of the bolt into account when specifying. If the ferrous bolt added almost 1mh to the circuit, I'm guessing the value shown on the schematics for the entire line are about 1mh less than what the design required at the electrical level.

Any thoughts?

DarqueKnight

The stock electolytic caps, mylar caps and ceramic metallic resistors had tolerances of 10%. I don't know the tolerance of the inductors, but it wouldn't be a stretch to assume they were 10% parts. Accordingly, in a 10% tolerance environment, the 0.75mH added by the bolt is not significant.

inspiredsports

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The stock electolytic caps, mylar caps and ceramic metallic resistors had tolerances of 10%. I don't know the tolerance of the inductors, but it wouldn't be a stretch to assume they were 10% parts. Accordingly, in a 10% tolerance environment, the 0.75mH added by the bolt is not significant.

Thanks DK! That's what I figured, but wanted a second opinion.

I know you stayed with air core, but I'm also noticing some are going to the Erse Super Q steel core inductor. The question there becomes slightly more important because the SDA 2B was designed with a 16mh 18 gauge inductor, but Erse offers a 15mh maximum in 14 gauge and either a 15 or 17mh in 16 gauge so I have to go +1 or -1 if I use their product.

My thought process here was that the Erse 17mh (attached with non-ferrous connectors) might be a more exact match to the stock 16mh + steel bolt which is effectively 17mh.

If 15mh is OK, I'd rather use the Erse 15mh 14 gauge product.

In reality, I'll probably pony up for the exact 16mh 10 gauge air core; I'm arm-wrestling with my wallet right now

I'd love to see some comparisons by CP members of air core versus these new Erse self-titled "audiophile" ferrous cores.

drumminman

inspiredsports wrote: »

Thanks DK! That's what I figured, but wanted a second opinion.

I know you stayed with air core, but I'm also noticing some are going to the Erse Super Q steel core inductor. The question there becomes slightly more important because the SDA 2B was designed with a 16mh 18 gauge inductor, but Erse offers a 15mh maximum in 14 gauge and either a 15 or 17mh in 16 gauge so I have to go +1 or -1 if I use their product.

My thought process here was that the Erse 17mh (attached with non-ferrous connectors) might be a better match to the stock 16mh with steel bolt which is effectively 17mh.

If 15mh is OK, I'd rather use the Erse 15mh 14 gauge product.

In reality, I'll probably pony up for the exact 16mh 10 gauge air core, but I'm arm-wrestling with my wallet right now

I'd love to see some comparisons by CP members of air core versus these new Erse self-titled "audiophile" ferrous cores.

That comparison's gonna be hard to come by.

You'd have to install each, burn them in, listen and compare. Not saying someone hasn't done it, just sayin'. . . .

inspiredsports

oliverbubbles wrote: »

Hey I have an idea! . . . (contact Polk)

I will if necessary, but I'll spend hours getting opinions and educating myself with volunteered forum info first.

I respect that Polk engineers have stuff to do to pay the bills, and want to take as up as little of their time as possible. I want to understand all of the subtlties beforehand.

inspiredsports

drumminman wrote: »

That comparison's gonna be hard to come by.

You'd have to install each, burn them in, listen and compare. Not saying someone hasn't done it, just sayin'. . . .

True, but some here have vastly more experience than I and may know where the Erse falls down.

We are talking delivered prices of $250+ each air-core versus $40 each Erse Super Q.

drumminman

inspiredsports wrote: »

True, but some here have vastly more experience than I and may know where the Erse falls down.

We are talking delivered prices of $250+ each air-core versus $40 each Erse Super Q.

It is a big $ difference. I struggled with that.

My goal when I bought my SDA's was to make them as good as I could, so once I got over the sticker shock (and parts connexion had their 20% off sale :cheesygrin:), I went ahead.

FYI, if you buy from PC it's around $195 each. I think I paid $155 each. It's a lot more $ from Solen.

Mr. Bubbles

inspiredsports wrote: »

I will if necessary, but I'll spend hours getting opinions and educating myself with volunteered forum info first.

I respect that Polk engineers have stuff to do to pay the bills, and want to take as up as little of their time as possible. I want to understand all of the subtlties beforehand.

Since I got a respectable reply from you I will gladly not be a smart-alack.
I agree with you completely here and feel that is pretty much what I have been doing myself. I was simply ragging you.

Toolfan66

Solens killed the Northcreeks IMO!! So I am having a hard time thinking the Erse SQ will even compete but the steel core could be a sleeper and if they are only $40 each I have no problems giving them a spin, should or could be better then the stock inductors, but I still have my doubts they will trump the Solens..

inspiredsports

drumminman wrote: »

It is a big $ difference. I struggled with that.

My goal when I bought my SDA's was to make them as good as I could, so once I got over the sticker shock (and parts connexion had their 20% off sale :cheesygrin:), I went ahead.

FYI, if you buy from PC it's around $195 each. I think I paid $155 each. It's a lot more $ from Solen.

Thanks.

My problem is that I'm developing both of my pairs in tandem (SDA 2B TL's and SDA SRS II TL's) with very good to premium parts and it gets expensive (I say very good as I have not moved beyond Sonicaps in the high-pass sections, but that is next :twisted:).

The SDA SRS II's use a 9.6uf so the cost for open core is a bit more favorable, but my other major concern is the nominal 4 ohm impedence which will drop even more at low frequencies with new, lower DCR inductors. That's why I decided to mod the nominal 6-ohm 2B's first.

Also, now that I have invested in measurement hardware/software and properly voiced the SDA SRS II's, they have become my go-to speaker that will get the highest dollar parts if I don't go all the way with both. I want to climb the learning curve with my 2B's.

At any rate, I think I'm going to flip a coin and try the 15mh 14ga or 17mh 16ga Erse Super Q's. I'm sure they are excellent even if they are not quite as good as air cores and I can easily resell if/when I trade up.

inspiredsports

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Solens killed the Northcreeks IMO!! So I am having a hard time thinking the Erse SQ will even compete but the steel core could be a sleeper and if they are only $40 each I have no problems giving them a spin, should or could be better then the stock inductors, but I still have my doubts they will trump the Solens..

Someone's gotta find out so it might as well be me

I have no doubt air-cores are better top to bottom, but what I've read is that the Super Q's are exceptional from the bottom up to about 3,000Hz, and that may be all that's needed.

I'd feel even better about it if the Super Q was available in a perfect match 16mh 14ga.

inspiredsports

oliverbubbles wrote: »

Since I got a respectable reply from you I will gladly not be a smart-alack.
I agree with you completely here and feel that is pretty much what I have been doing myself. I was simply ragging you.

No worries. I like that version of you and me both pulling the same direction for (as DK would write), "Such Good Sound".

DarqueKnight

oliverbubbles wrote: »

I just happened to notice where one of the guys that had been ragging me wasn't practicing what he was preaching at me and pointed that out.

You must consider the context of who I was talking to and what we were talking about. When this is done, your allegations of hypocrisy do not make sense. If I am going to do a major crossover redesign or make a major change to a crossover component, that is something I would consult Polk about. You were discussing a major crossover circuit change and IS was discussing component tolerance. I know that IS has some solid knowledge of speaker modification as evidenced by these statements:

inspiredsports wrote: »

I place a huge value upon listening and listen for the pure artistic enjoyment of it most of the time, but when you start making massive changes to the fundemental components of a speaker design you simply can't do it with ears alone.

If you would take the time to learn how Polk designed/designs speakers (or any speaker designer designs speakers), you'll realize you have no chance of doing it properly with your ears alone.

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'd be glad to bring my calibrated Behringer's, Alesis io2 Express, boom tripods and analysis software laden laptop over to show you all of the massive hills and valleys you've created.

The question of inductor tolerance has been covered many times on the forum and IS was already intuitively aware of the possible answer as evidenced by this statement:

inspiredsports wrote: »

Thanks DK! That's what I figured, but wanted a second opinion.

In the future, when you see two grown men talking and you really don't have a good grasp of the concepts pertaining to the subject matter, it would be best to just quietly observe. Otherwise, you run the risk of making yourself appear ignorant and foolish. However, appearing ignorant and foolish may be your goal as evidenced by this statement:

oliverbubbles wrote: »

Yes I am an ****. Again I have never claimed any different. That has never bothered me except when my mother told me that one time. So believe it or not, I used to be worse.

I can believe it.

oliverbubbles wrote: »

You've got to admit it is kind of funny how easy it is to get them going.

Really Mr. Bubbles, you seem to forget that it was you who initiated the vulgar name calling and insulting:

oliverbubbles wrote: »

Man the guy i bought these from was right; there are some fu@$in idiots around this forum.

oliverbubbles wrote: »

The rest of you dumba$$es please treat me like you are treating Audio and ignore me.

DarqueKnight

inspiredsports wrote: »

I have no doubt air-cores are better top to bottom, but what I've read is that the Super Q's are exceptional from the bottom up to about 3,000Hz, and that may be all that's needed.

I am attaching some comments from Matthew Polk and Stu Lumsden (Polk's engineering VP) on air core vs. steel core inductors and on the recommended low DCR inductor modification.

Also, for reference, the measured values of the Solen 16mH inductors used in my 1.2TL's was 15.4mH each. The measured values of the Northcreek 16mH inductors was 14.92mH and 14.84mH.

Mr. Bubbles

DarqueKnight wrote: »

You must consider the context of who I was talking to and what we were talking about. When this is done, your allegations of hypocrisy do not make sense. If I am going to do a major crossover redesign or make a major change to a crossover component, that is something I would consult Polk about. You were discussing a major crossover circuit change and IS was discussing component tolerance. I know that IS has some solid knowledge of speaker modification as evidenced by these statements:





The question of inductor tolerance has been covered many times on the forum and IS was already intuitively aware of the possible answer as evidenced by this statement:



In the future, when you see two grown men talking and you really don't have a good grasp of the concepts pertaining to the subject matter, it would be best to just quietly observe. Otherwise, you run the risk of making yourself appear ignorant and foolish. However, appearing ignorant and foolish may be your goal as evidenced by this statement:



I can believe it.



Really Mr. Bubbles, you seem to forget that it was you who initiated the vulgar name calling and insulting:

here we go again........

First of all I must not do anything but piss you off. Ok good, I have succeeded at something in my pitiful life. No way I can compare to the great DarqueKnight so let me take what I can get.

You tell me that I must consider the context. I believe I did:

but I'm guessing Polk took the presence of the bolt into account when specifying. If the ferrous bolt added almost 1mh to the circuit, I'm guessing the value shown on the schematics for the entire line are about 1mh less than what the design required at the electrical level.

If you want to know what Polk's thoughts were, or think you do know but want to verify, then as you pointed out to me Polk would be invaluable to answer that question for you. Because I doubt even you, with all your insight and supreme knowledge even know what they were thinking when they did certain specific things.

My point was to practice what you preach ( not just you specifically but all others here with the same issue.) or get off my **** about it. Hypocrisy reigns.You simply can't see it through your pride and arrogance.

Read my posts and replies. I'm man enough to admit I'm an **** (good or bad I am what I am). If I tried to act like something different, I would be just like you. I have admitted where I may have been wrong. I am putting on no masks here for false illusion. Come down from your throne , oh mighty king, and look in a paupers mirror. You may be surprised what you find.

Yes really, Mr. DARQUE%$$.

audiocr381ve

Wow, if this is what I sound like when I argue with other members, then I'm sorry for ever wasting my breath. From the outside looking in it's just pathetic, on both ends.

You learn something new everyday I tell ya!

nspindel

Hang on, I need to go make some popcorn. I haven't watched a good old fashioned cyber slaughter in a long time, and I think I sense one coming.

Can anyone recommend a good wine pairing to go with a troll roast?

nooshinjohn

nspindel wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a good wine pairing to go with a troll roast?

Roasted Favra beans and a nice chiante get the job done for me, but I think that would be overkill for a bubble party. I am thinking of hiring a clown for this one.

Mr. Bubbles

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Roasted Favra beans and a nice chiante get the job done for me, but I think that would be overkill for a bubble party. I am thinking of hiring a clown for this one.

Better get the one from "It". If he's not a bad **** he doesn't stand a chance.

Mr. Bubbles

Trolls, wine, popcorn, Favra beans. Damn, where are the tough guys? Maybe I am in the wrong crowd, here. WHAT TIME IS IT? Have any of you guys ever listened to Kid Rock, seen a wrestling match, or at least beat a girl at arm wrestling?

Joe08867

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Wow, if this is what I sound like when I argue with other members, then I'm sorry for ever wasting my breath. From the outside looking in it's just pathetic, on both ends.

You learn something new everyday I tell ya!

Yeah, that's what you sounded like. Still do sometimes. :cheesygrin:

DK, you really got that boy upset. Now you go an apologize won't ya?

Oliver, your sounding like a child, back away from the keyboard. You are having your buttons pushed by some of the best in the business. You can't win, you will only look the fool.

audiocr381ve

Joe08867 wrote: »

Yeah, that's what you sounded like. Still do sometimes. :cheesygrin:

DK, you really got that boy upset. Now you go an apologize won't ya?

Oliver, your sounding like a child, back away from the keyboard. You are having your buttons pushed by some of the best in the business. You can't win, you will only look the fool.

:biggrin: