Improvements To Modified SDA SRS 1.2TL Crossover

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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    OldmanSRS wrote: »
    DK, you think the positive benefit is still there when you drive them hard?

    For me it is. I ran the volume up to 110 dB-C and the character of the sound remained the same, it was just louder. The bass never became boomy.

    At 98 dB-C I had to leave the room.

    At 100 dB-C the windows were rattling a little and the hardwood floor was vibrating. I could only be in the room with earplugs.

    At 110 dB-C, the music was still clear, but unbearably loud, even from an adjacent room with earplugs in.

    Stability of sound character will depend a lot on how stable your power amp is when driven hard. The Parasound Halo JC 1 I am using is rated for 800 watts continuous into 4 ohms and 1200 watts into 2 ohms for intermittent peaks.

    I listen at 80 dB-C for casual listening and 85 dB-C for critical listening.
    OldmanSRS wrote: »
    Driving the DA 42% more is adding more bass, like a loudness control.

    This was not my experience. As I said before, I felt rather than heard more bass. Loudness controls tend to muddy the sound. Rather than the sound being analogous to turning on a loudness control, what I experienced after the mod was like the effect of adding a clean, tight subwoofer.

    Recall that, if a subwoofer is properly blended in with other speakers, the character of the other speakers does not change, the sound just has more weight and more authority since the foundation of the sound has been reinforced.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited March 2011
    You have me totally intrigued with this idea. I would prefer to hear more "bass slam" for lack of a better term. I wonder how this would translate to other SDA's as I do not have 1.2TL's.
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited March 2011
    It helps. Big time. As I posted a bit earlier on, I've got the Erse inductors in my 1C's. And DK has also changed out his inductors in a pair of CRS+'s, correct? It's a great, cheap mod, at least for the Erse's it was only ~$50 for two of them.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,418
    edited March 2011
    What size inductor would be appropriate for a set of 2.3TL's?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    nspindel wrote: »
    ...DK has also changed out his inductors in a pair of CRS+'s, correct?

    I have modified two of my three CRS+ pairs and I am currently working on the 3rd pair. I also modded my SDA SRS's.

    Link: CRS+ Inductor Upgrade

    Link: SDA SRS Inductor Upgrade
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited March 2011
    I'm really enjoying listening from the gallery on this subject, and it's really spurred a great deal of study into electrical design. I just want to say thanks for these super informative discussions. They're truly an asset.

    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited March 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    I'm really enjoying listening from the gallery on this subject, and it's really spurred a great deal of study into electrical design. I just want to say thanks for these super informative discussions. They're truly an asset.

    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?
    Nearby inductors are coupled because the flux through one induces a current in the other. Note that when you stack two coils together they become a transformer. You can reduce the amount of coupling by (a) moving the inductors farther apart, (b) orienting the inductors so that the coupling is minimized (you can measure the mutual inductance if you buy an LCR meter).
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    newrival wrote: »
    As a side note, DK mentions testing placement of the inductors within the cabinet and the various effects they produced. Is there any potential for benefits of housing the crossover networks externally?

    Yes. Some speaker manufacturers place their crossover networks in an external enclosure or in a compartment built into the rear of the speaker that opens to the outside.

    I had some concern about the large Solen inductor inducing noise on the other much smaller inductors on my crossover board. Solen replied that, unless I was running several thousand volts through the inductor, crosstalk would be negligible.

    I also did some crosstalk measurements with two stock 16 mH SDA inductors here: Loudspeaker Inductor Crosstalk Measurements.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited March 2011
    DK you are still just experimenting with the single large 16mH inductor correct? no one here has any positive outcomes with the 1mH and 2mH inductor change correct?
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    thejck wrote: »
    DK you are still just experimenting with the single large 16mH inductor correct?

    Yes.
    thejck wrote: »
    ...no one here has any positive outcomes with the 1mH and 2mH inductor change correct?

    Not that I know of. I do know of cases where people replaced the smaller inductors with a different type, but the same DCR, and it didn't make a difference.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited March 2011
    Thanks DK,
    from reading your other very well documented threads these are the values I picked up for the different STOCK inductors
    1. 20GA, 2.0mH, 1.3ohms DCR
    2. 18GA, 1.0mH, 0.7ohms DCR
    3. 18GA, 16mH, 3.5ohms DCR
    Can anyone confirm these numbers? and finally number 3. is the only one recommended to go with a lower DCR (thicker gauge) inductor.
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited March 2011
    Also just as a reference I collected these values for the inductors in the tweeter network
    1.22GA,0.4mH, 0.9ohmDCR
    2.22GA,0.4mH, 0.8ohmDCR
    3.25GA,0.7mH,1.9ohmDCR
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited March 2011
    Ray,

    I am experiencing better detail, refinement (Detail),and the blacks are very black. Of course the lows are better with the new inductor. Ben upgraded my original boards about 18-20 months ago,and he used Dayton caps for the lows,and I used Sonicaps across the board.

    Not sure why this is, I will do an A/B test with both boards today but I'm definitely hearing sounds cleaner and blacker.

    Could it be because we don't have the caps stacked on top of each other to fit on the old boards??
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited March 2011
    It's because Sonicaps are a superior shunt cap.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    Ray,

    I am experiencing better detail, refinement (Detail),and the blacks are very black.

    Not sure why this is...

    I'm not sure either...and I don't know if it's due to one particular thing or the result of a combination of things: better caps and inductors, better parts arrangement, better PCB with wider, thicker copper traces.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited March 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    It's because Sonicaps are a superior shunt cap.

    I was wondering about it being a better cap, but these speakers just went up another level when I didn't think that was possible. I expected the deeper bass after Ray's findings but what I am hearing is unreal,the blacks are so rich with precise detail. These speakers have had one hell of a journey in the last two years,and when you think they can't take another step up the chain, you end up with another permagrin going WTH!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!:wink:
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    I'm not sure either...and I don't know if it's due to one particular thing or the result of a combination of things: better caps and inductors, better parts arrangement, better PCB with wider, thicker copper traces.

    I did do an A/B test today and the new boards with the new inductor is by far superior to the old set-up. and I agree, not sure where to pin point it can't really say what the smoking gun is but the sound that is coming out of them is beautiful!!!!

    Thanks again Ray!!!
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    I was wondering about it being a better cap, but these speakers just went up another level when I didn't think that was possible. I expected the deeper bass after Ray's findings but what I am hearing is unreal,the blacks are so rich with precise detail. These speakers have had one hell of a journey in the last two years,and when you think they can't take another step up the chain, you end up with another permagrin going WTH!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!:wink:

    Yeah, I thought I would have reached the "end of the road" with my 1.2TL's a long time ago, but they keep getting better:
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    With proper tweaking, the ages old SDA SRS 1.2TL compares favorably to any high quality audiophile grade loudspeaker.
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Long term, I will continue my years long quest to find a loudspeaker I like better than my tweaked SDA SRS 1.2TL's.:)
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited September 2011
    Holy Crap Ray,

    Pictures do not do these monster inductors justice!!

    09-22-11170.jpg

    09-22-11173.jpg

    10awg 16mh these bad boys are also heavy!!!:biggrin:

    Looking forward to install!!
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  • nspindel
    nspindel Posts: 5,343
    edited September 2011
    I thought you don't need 10awg? Pretty sure 14awg is plenty, no?
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited September 2011
    Glad you posted those pics TFLF. I don't have a working camera, and you really need to see those with something for scale to get how large they are.

    And then you need to pick up one - 17 lbs! :wink:

    I was concerned with their size and weight when I started thinking about where to put them. Didn't want them coming loose when I moved the cabinets. I soldered slightly longer wires to the Xover so I could mount mine on the floor, which turned out to be excellent placement for minimal/no interaction with the metal in the PR, MW magnets, smaller inductors.

    I have 300 hours on the caps/resistors of the new Xover, and 70 hours on the inductors. I'm thinking the BASI's (big a#* Solen inductors :tongue:) will probably need a few more hours to finish cooking.

    My wife and I had a glass of wine (or two) last night while we playing the system. I think the 2.3Tl's are getting better! I'm continually surprised at the richness of the sound, the depth and width of the soundstage, and the layer of details I've never noticed on recordings I'm very familiar with.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited September 2011
    Well I am installing now, I was worried about brace sagging as well posted above somewhere by Ray, and I did not want to drill into the front of the baffle as Ray did (call me anal) well I forgot that one of the added cross bracing I did when I was rebuilding these from the ground up was just under that brace. I had to add a little piece of wood between the two brace's with a little hot glue and I was good to go. I will post a picture later.

    Back to my morning coffee (Starbucks) and work..
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited September 2011
    Up and running!!! My first impression is positive thus far, the low end at lower volumes is bigger but I am also finding my sound stage a little wider, it also feels as if the music is wrapping around my room better then ever as well. the center stage is much more pronounced I am digging it so far!! I will report more later as I listen to some other music..

    Ray,

    I am not trying to thread jack your thread I just didn't see any reason to start a new thread and nobody here can cover these improvments better then yourself and it's on the same topic..

    Thanks!!
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited September 2011
    Larry,

    This is good info. Carry on.:smile:
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited September 2011
    If there is improvment with burn-in time with these inductors I don't think I have the strengh for a more permagrin!! It's almost as if they filled in the gaps of your soundstage..

    I never thought Tori Amos could sound any better, the only way I can see it being any better is if she herself was singing in my room. it's insane how good this is.. Yes I listen to Tori Amos the woman is beautiful...

    The Solens are superior to the Northcreeks in a big way..
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited September 2011
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    The Solens are superior to the Northcreeks in a big way..

    ...and half the cost!
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • audiocr381ve
    audiocr381ve Posts: 2,588
    edited September 2011
    Which inductors would I need for the 2B TL's?
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  • xoaphexox
    xoaphexox Posts: 246
    edited September 2011
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    Yes I listen to Tori Amos the woman is beautiful...

    Have you seen her do Mohammed my Friend with Maynard? Goosebumps...

    Burson HA-160D > Adcom GFA-5802 > Polk SDA-SRS 1.2tl w/ Mye Sound Spikes, Mills/Sonicap XO, Larry's Rings, Dynamat Extreme, Cardas CCGR Binding Posts and Jumpers, Custom 10ga interconnect, Custom Gaskets, RDO-198
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited September 2011
    You can see where I added a little piece of oak wood between the cross brace and the added cross brace I had installed.
    inductors045.jpg

    inductors044.jpg

    inductors046.jpg

    inductors047.jpg

    I used delrin to make center hubs for the inductors it is nice to work in a shop now and then.:cool:
    inductors049.jpg
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  • thejck
    thejck Posts: 849
    edited September 2011
    did you have to special order the 16mh 10awg inductor from solen? I dont see it on their website
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited September 2011
    audiocr381ve wrote: »
    Which inductors would I need for the 2B TL's?

    The SDA 2B uses the same 16mH, 18 Ga. SDA inductor as the CRS+. You could use a 16mH, 14 Ga. inductor from either Solen or Northcreek Audio or a 16 mH, 10 Ga. inductor from Solen. The Solens outperformed the Northcreeks in my 1.2TL's and CRS+'s. A report on the Solen and Northcreek inductor's performance in my CRS+'s can be found here.
    thejck wrote: »
    did you have to special order the 16mh 10awg inductor from solen? I dont see it on their website

    It is listed on the Solen website. The inductors are listed in order of the third and fourth numbers in the item code. This means that inductors are not consistently listed in ascending order based on inductance value. For example, the 2mH, 14 Ga. inductor has an item code of S142.0. The 18mH, 14 Ga. inductor has an item code of S1418.0. With this numbering scheme, the 18mH inductor is listed immediately before the 2mH inductor and they are the 33rd and 34th items on a list of 55 inductors:

    S1418.0
    S142.0

    Parts Connexion (www.partsconnexion.com) offers better prices than those on the Solen website. These are special order items.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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