This makes me sick!!!

munk

We disagree, Demiurge. There are very few moral imperatives various cultures share between themselves. What is considered moral today in the US is quite different than what was once agreed as absolute, that 'everyone knew deep down' and what will assume that tomorow. Quotes mine.

I think a round of starvation on the planet will realign many morals.
I bid you goodnight.

Demiurge

munk wrote: »

We disagree, Demiurge. There are very few moral imperatives various cultures share between themselves. What is considered moral today in the US is quite different than what was once agreed as absolute, that 'everyone knew deep down' and what will assume that tomorow. Quotes mine.

I think a round of starvation on the planet will realign many morals.
I bid you goodnight.

Yet you continue to beat around the bush, why don't you just come out and say you're cool with people throwing puppies in rivers to drown? If you're not going to do it, then yeah, I guess we're done. You're still hiding like a pouty child behind the skirt of moral relativism, which gets back to the original point -- you're making excuses for behavior that is wrong by any standard.

When the humane alternatives are suggested, you make even more excuses for why they weren't a possibility, without any evidence.

munk

With snow's permission- I'm not hiding, Demiurge, but I'd rather not engage in an angry discussion- or one that will allow someone to complain to the mods about either of our posts. I've read the rules here. I'm not saying you, but there are some posters who've threatened each other.

If you wish to write me privately, go ahead. Have you read my posts, or just skimmed them? Did you read post 92?

Honest debate is wonderful- getting at the truth, not 'winning' but finding. I hope you heard that. But some people will not see it like that. It will be antagonistic. And snow has weighed in, as have others, and I see that as a good place to stop. People asked me to. I think that means something on a good forum.

I'd like to stay here. I don't wish to tear the place up.

Demiurge

snow isn't a moderator (and I don't think he was trying to be other than giving his opinion).

As for the civility of the discussion, besides getting right to the point, I haven't been engaging in any angry discussion myself, so I'm going to keep going right here in this thread, thank you.

So, back to the question, are you cool with throwing puppies in rivers to drown?

dorokusai

shack wrote: »

Animal cruelty is one of the battles I choose to fight. I deplore the way some people treat animals. I'm not a PETA fanatic...but senseless cruelty is wrong whether to an animal or another human. I donate money to animal welfare and rescue groups.

I also deplore the way humans treat each other.

Interesting though...when I posted the artilcle about the doctors and members of the medical team that were murdered in Afghanistan (which enraged me), some actually laid blame on the victims. No point really...just interesting the perspective of some.

First, I don't recall reading your other thread but will do so. That region is a mess right now, there's no doubt.

Steve, I echo your sentiment and as an aside actually foster 2-4 guinea pigs from an organization called Small Angels. Rodent and other small animals are often considered throw away animals and neglected by children once the fascination and care of them wears off.

My wife helps run this group and while I'm not thrilled with having these crazy squeaking things, I support her and I applaud the organization for caring about the often forgotten pet store level creatures. Our pigs have actually been a lot of fun.

The fact that they're(animals) isn't meant to take away from 'the pick your battles' statement I posted but there are folks out there that identify more on a human scale. Who can possibly cover all the semantics involved in a discussion like this? I understand your position.

Demiurge

dorokusai wrote: »

The fact that they're(animals) isn't meant to take away from 'the pick your battles' statement I posted but there are folks out there that identify more on a human scale. Who can possibly cover all the semantics involved in a discussion like this? I understand your position.

People who value animals over the lives of the average human are, in a word, fools. YMMV.

Of course, the need to value one over the other isn't really at play here, because I can't imagine how these puppies were a threat to the lives of this girl or her family.

If these animals needed to die because there was nobody to take them and the family couldn't take care of them, there are humane ways to dispatch of the animal.

There's no lost perspective here and culture plays no role. The way in which we treat our animals, regardless if they're food, pets or a part of the environment, says a lot about a society. Even in the most destitute places on earth, the people hold their animals in high regard. Taking an animal for food or putting them down because of disease or starvation, is almost always done with the utmost care.

There are things far more outrageous than this, but I don't see how it lessens the topic at hand unless someone is making an argument that puppies drowning are more important than genocide....which so far as I can tell, nobody has done.

snow

munk wrote: »

With snow's permission- I'm not hiding, Demiurge, but I'd rather not engage in an angry discussion- or one that will allow someone to complain to the mods about either of our posts. I've read the rules here. I'm not saying you, but there are some posters who've threatened each other.

If you wish to write me privately, go ahead. Have you read my posts, or just skimmed them? Did you read post 92?

Honest debate is wonderful- getting at the truth, not 'winning' but finding. I hope you heard that. But some people will not see it like that. It will be antagonistic. And snow has weighed in, as have others, and I see that as a good place to stop. People asked me to. I think that means something on a good forum.

I'd like to stay here. I don't wish to tear the place up.

You dont need my permission to do anything im not a moderator here. It just seems that the discussion has gotten down to arguing about the best method of killing a puppy/most humane way which is really sad. The most humane way would most likely be whatever was quickest and involved the least amount of suffering at your disposal.

A gun shot to the back of the head is usally considered to be relatively quick and therfore painless and would most likely be the method I would choose if I had to choose between a weapon versus drowning but perhaps this girl didnt have a weapon who knows? but better than being set on fire I suppose or being beat to death with a club. The fact remains that whatever method you choose it still sucks for the animal and for those that love animals.

I can only hope that when I leave this earth that I get a choice if so I want to be under or on top of a beautiful woman



REGARDS SNOW

munk

I used to keep rats. (cats rats and dogs..)

Demiurge; 'am I 'cool' with drowning puppies?" Does 'coolness' change what is a humane method of death? You're deliberately personalizing this, but that has nothing to do with the real discussion. You're certain it is inhumane. Prove it. Define by some criteria which methods are and are not moral and why different nations should agree with you- nations with very different weath. You've written it's just verbose and I'm clouding the issue.

Yet I've stated it is less the death than the method of death that bothers us. I've asked you to define a moral death. I've pointed out leaping suicides are considered desirable by young canadians doing themselves in, and asked you if throwing puppies off a cliff is moral.
Bosnia has an unemployment rate of 40%. I looked it up on the CIA's own resource page online. "However, due in large part to the global economic crisis, GDP fell by about 3% in 2009, exports fell 24%, and unemployment - as officially reported - rose above 40%."

I don't think everyone in Bosnia has a lot of money for guns and bullets.

Have you ever considered that money provides levels of morality? In the US we euthanize animals.

BTW- after strong international pressure from animal rights groups, the village of the girl has been identified and the police there are doing an investigation. I wonder how many resources that will take away from human criminal investigations?

Bosnia wants the tourist trade back. Are they doing an investigation because of the puppies, or for financial reasons?

I actually dislike moral equivalency. I've never believed nations throwing missiles into suburban homes is the same as a nation defending itself when attacked. I don't believe animals are on an equal footing with humans. I don't believe Western nations should have banned most DDT use in third world nations. They cannot afford the expensive chemicals western nations can, and millions have died of malaria because the mosquitos are unchecked. What a luxury we in the West have with our Morality. "Everyone' knows DDT is bad and hurts Eagle shells...

Snow, of course you're not a moderator, but you are a peer, and not the only one who said it was getting time to wind down, back off.

WE attach ourselves to the little issues, because we believe we have no control over the big ones.

Blessings to all.

munk

headrott

munk wrote: »

Have you ever considered that money provides levels of morality?

If the amount of money you make is dictating your morals, you don't have any.

Greg

snow

munk wrote: »

Bosnia wants the tourist trade back. Are they doing an investigation because of the puppies, or for financial reasons?



munk

I think that out of all the places on my list of where I want to visit Bosnia might be tied with Somalia and Afghanistan. Not sure what kind of tourist would even want to visit there to be honest cant be many.


REGARDS SNOW

munk

How many cats and dogs running wild can Bosnia afford to euthanize without taking away resources that it's 40% unemployed need?

Of course, we can't think about that because, "if the amount of money you make is dictating your morals, you don't have any."

munk

Snow-
I was looking at that on the CIA page. The Olympics were hosted in that area several years or even decades ago, weren't they?

I always thought Bosnia was where our good start with the Moslem population ended; The good will we'd earned in the first Gulf war. But in Bosnia, we allowed those with weapons to slaughter those without, and those without just happened to be Moslems, the disenfranchised of the area.

I wouldn't envy the travel agent selling discounted vacations to Bosnia. Judging by the constant ads on TV, it's hard to sell an island vacation right now....

munk

Snow;
"I can only hope that when I leave this earth that I get a choice if so I want to be under or on top of a beautiful woman "

I just realized you'd actually said this!! That would be a good way, just not very fun for the woman.

snow

munk wrote: »

Snow;
"I can only hope that when I leave this earth that I get a choice if so I want to be under or on top of a beautiful woman "

I just realized you'd actually said this!! That would be a good way, just not very fun for the woman.

Oh it would be fun right up to the point I keeled over, then maybe not so much, especially if I was on top im a big boy

REGARDS SNOW

messiah

Why weren't the puppies just put up for adoption?

BIZILL

unless i don't understand the language, 23 seconds into the video posted the gal pretty much says, "whoooeeeehhhy". you know, sorta like she's thinking this **** is fun. for her, for the unknowing puppy, for munk. who knows.

maybe drowning isn't sooo bad nor inhumane. but let me assure you the puppy did not die with "one inhalation of water" there munkey. rather it/they had a high probability of "suffering" before the final death occured.

munkey, have you even watched the video or are you just spurting off about euthanizing animals by way of drowning them? i dunno, maybe it's my culture or my class, but to me that didn't look in any way "humane". wtf?

enlighten me. reading through your posts...you almost had me.

Willow

The reason I posted this here was, due to the fact that I consider CP as a "family" if you will. What do healthy families do? they talk when then experience good, bad, neutral things. The same goes for reading or witnessing.

I never wanted this to be about how to: or 101 better ways to do: or a blame it on the society the person is living in.

As other have said and as I have said, this hits close to home as I love my two pooches (even when they drive me mad) they are such innocent creatures who are just out to please and belong.

I also get others point of view as they could easily say, "Willow, you have uncles,aunts, mother, father.....etc; that you love and that could be one of them" to which I would reply "yes, you are right and had I just watched a video or read an article about a mother throwing her kids in a river I would be even more pissed and sick feeling".

Thanks to Hollywood as humans we come to be desensitized to human cruelty, we watch people killing others all the time on tv and in movies. Just my point of view and I respect all others as well.

Demiurge

munk wrote: »

Demiurge; 'am I 'cool' with drowning puppies?" Does 'coolness' change what is a humane method of death? You're deliberately personalizing this, but that has nothing to do with the real discussion. You're certain it is inhumane. Prove it. Define by some criteria which methods are and are not moral and why different nations should agree with you- nations with very different weath. You've written it's just verbose and I'm clouding the issue.

Why can't you just answer the question? Yes, no, or I don't know. Seems pretty simple.

In any event, drowning is not an instant death. A bullet to the brain is. I suppose now you're going to argue over my use of the word instant, right?

hearingimpared

HELLO!

Girl throws innocent, helpless puppies in a river to drown.

Horrible, reprehensible, deplorable, sickening, don't give a hoot, etc.

Where did all this other BS come from! #113 posts long!?!:eek:

For Goodness sakes this has turned into a cable or Emotiva debate thread.:rolleyes:

Does every thread posted need to be dissected!?!:mad:

cstmar01

munk wrote: »

Demiurge

One inhalation of water = humane death. Lots of people commit suicide by drowning- it's easy, it's cheap, it's FUN.
.

Do you really think that line is funny? Really? Have you ever been in a situation where there is someone drowning? Have you ever been pulled under when performing a save as a lifeguard to know the feeling that you possibly could die?

probably not and I don't think you should talk about something you have no idea about.

It is not FUN. it is not easy, and it is not quick. There is the moments in the struggle when you know you're dying....I'm pretty offended at the fact you think like this, how about for a summer you go be a lifeguard and save a few peoples lives..then come back and discuss the topic of drowning because it is not so.

oh wait, you would probably just think they are having FUN and wouldn't help them. :mad::rolleyes:

inspiredsports

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

For the record... I wouldn't in a million years even attempt to look at that video. Hell... I refuse to squash bugs or swat flies.

Even with that mindset (twisted as it may be), I still can't help but find it odd that so many would hammer away at their keyboards decrying ANYONE in freakin' Bosnia. Seriously? Try walking a MINUTE in any of their shoes. "Poor puppy"?

Trust me. Her mindset is on a whole different plane than any of our's. For better or worse.

I'm not sure this is true. In horrible, inhumane life situations people end up with a mouse in their pocket being the most important thing in their life. Even hardcore killers seem to universally value pets and "innocent" life. The chick in the video is just twisted.

inspiredsports

messiah wrote: »

Why weren't the puppies just put up for adoption?

Because it happened in Bosnia.

Demiurge

Wrong guy.

inspiredsports

Demiurge wrote: »

He knows that....

And how is it, as you speak for messiah, you know "he knows that" ????

Demiurge

Actually, my mistake, I thought that was Munk, the guy who thinks drowning is fun.

inspiredsports

Demiurge wrote: »

Actually, my mistake, I thought that was Munk, the guy who thinks drowning is fun.

I am thinking of a number between 1 and 10 . . . .

Demiurge

Hmm....34.

BIZILL

Demiurge wrote: »

Hmm....34.

"what's my age again? ...what's my age again?" blink 182

thanks for thinking of me, big guy.

Demiurge

BIZILL wrote: »

"what's my age again? ...what's my age again?" blink 182

thanks for thinking of me, big guy.

I think we should blow some schtuff up this weekend. What say you?

BIZILL

can't. another asian dude strikes again, giving my ethnicity a bad name. discovery channel dude. drats.

oh snap! you meant online gaming....lol. desensitized. label me as such.