McIntosh says no way to MQA.......BRAVO!!!

24

Comments

  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 4,077
    My lumin does full mqa. I can hear the difference between a regularl file on tidl and the MQA version kn tidal. The MQA version sounds better to my ears BUT, I'm not 100% convinced its because of MQA. I think a lot of it is a better mastering. On tidal, sometimes i see 3-4 icons of the same cd. You can usually hear the difference between the versions probably because they were mastered differently.

    So, while i can say on the Lumin MQA does sound better and streams at a better bit rate ( 24/96 24/129. 24/192) I just cant tell if its the MQA or not. Blue Fox, your test might be the better way to go.
    Lumin D1, KEF LS50 Wireless, Cayin scd-50T, LH Labs VI Dac, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9, HP I7 Laptop, Wireworld Eclipse 7, Wireworld Aurora, Wireworld Electra 7, Signal Magic Digital, Cardas Quadralink 5C, Velodyne SPL1200
    USB helpers: w4s Recovery

    HT: Elite SC27, Full Polk RTI setup.

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,018
    edited June 16
    I am still beating my way through the link that Ken kindly provided (I wonder if the author is like that in person?) -- but my sense at this point is that the aural features of MQA are sort of a modern, digital, ostensibly sophisticated reboot of tricks like the (in)famous Aphex Aural Exciter of the 1970s. :|

    Audiopiles aren't supposed to fall for cheap tricks* like smiley EQ curves, midbass humps, or loudness buttons. ;)

    _____________
    * Audiophiles are supposed to fall for expensive tricks like quantum purifiers and green pens for CDs and brilliant pebbles.
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,212
    True Mark, with sound being so subjective you can convince some people anywhere that cd's coated in Donkey dung sound better and they'd buy it, write rave reviews, maybe complain about the smell, but still fork out the cash.

    Just enjoy the music as you see fit, doesn't have to cost a years salary and you certainly don't have to fall for every "trick" that comes along.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1403 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,389
    I was just thinking back to the late 80's, early 90s, and the magic marker craze for CD's just a few days ago. You audiophile suckers will try anything.
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,018
    Like a lot of hifi hooey, the green pen thing has a bit of intuitive appeal. Lasers used for redbook CD players are red (well, infrared) and green is the complement (or, if one prefers, the opposite) of red, so one could kind of rationalize some kind of value in the tweak.

    I - ahem - did try it with a green Sharpie on a few burned discs. :p

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 6,747
    edited June 16
    Jim Collinson at Linn doesn't think it's good for music.

    https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,816
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Jim Collinson at Linn doesn't think it's good for music.

    https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

    Neither does Benchmark, Bryston, Ayre, Playback Designs or Schiit.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,581
    The supply chain monopoly was what I was talking about in my prior post, and they get paid MASSIVELY in each chain of that monopoly. I have no issues with a new file format that enables DRM protection, but I don't like a business model where EVERYONE involved in the product has to pay out the wazoo to use it.
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
    Amps: Shuguang S845MK, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks, Parasound A23
    Integrateds: Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: BoX, Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
    Sources: AURALiC Aries, Denon HEOS Link, North Star Design: Magnifico, Supremo, Incanto, Intenso, Venti
    Cabling: Wireworld
    TV: Sony XBR-75X940C
  • mpitogompitogo Posts: 259
    I canceled my Tidal sub. Not going to support MQA. I'm back to buying Vinyl and will look at going back to iTunes music.
    Music-2.0 Raidho D-3.1 | Audio Research Ref 40 | Jeff Roland 925 | Esoteric Grandioso K1 | Transparent Reference, IC, Speaker and Power | HRS SXR Rack
  • steveinazsteveinaz Posts: 18,224
    When recording engineers learn how to do their jobs correctly, I might look into another format. All the formats in the world won't help a sh_t recording with smashed dynamics.
    Transport: Oppo BDP-103/USB HDD | Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2L | Power Amp: Parasound Halo A21 | Speakers: PSB Imagine T2 | Cables: Signal Cable XLR; Kimber 8VS Bi-Wire; DH Labs D-75 | AC Power: Panamax M5300-PM
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,018
    edited June 19
    FWIW -- I think the damage is typically done in mastering not necessarily in recording -- but I don't do the stuff for a living so I'm certainly not certain of that. :)

    Plenty of gorgeously recorded and mastered music available right now today -- depends on genre in many cases, I think.

    This one sounds pretty good to me, e.g., redbook CD or vinyl (that's all that I can vouch for).

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,204
    edited June 20
    This is an article written by Peter Moncrieff who used to publish an audiophile magazine called IAR (International Audio Review) that was well respected. It takes a little patience to plow through his writing style but there is genuine knowledge to be gleaned. Here is his opinion on the subject:
    http://www.iar-80.com/page170.html

    When I cut and pasted the article into a Word document for offline reading, the resulting document was 54 pages long. Here is my summary.

    I do not agree with the author's assertion that most of the world's digital engineers haven't the slightest clue about how digital actually works:


    "Thus, this article will also shock thousands of digital engineers around the world, into realizing that most of the digital products they have designed for the past 34 years are fatally defective, actually butchering the signal, rather than correctly reconstructing the original signal in the time domain from the digital samples. This article will show them that, despite their noble intent and brilliant brains and PhD digital education, they actually have such utter lack of comprehension, about how the basics of digital actually work, that they commit 100 huge blunders in their designs of the digital products that millions of you have purchased.

    These 100-blunder digital product designs butcher the signal (rather than correctly reconstructing it), because they violate the way digital actually works. These 100 blunders, committed by digital engineers worldwide (and by publications that support their views) not only are high in number, but also are each severe in degree, with many being completely backwards, the very opposite of the truth about the way digital actually works. The high number and severity of these 100 blunders proves that, regrettably, digital engineers worldwide (and their supporting media) don't have the slightest clue in comprehending how digital actually works."


    Digital technology is a tool that is used for creating home entertainment equipment. That technology can be implemented many different ways to suit a variety of consumer tastes, designer goals, and manufacturer price points. Saying that a digital designer is incompetent solely because he/she did not adhere to a theoretical ideal of signal accuracy is as absurd as saying that all amplifier designers do not know how amplifiers work because the output signals stray far from the theoretical ideal.

    I do agree with the author's (and with McIntosh's) assertion that MQA is not an audiophile quality, high resolution format.

    The author asserts that MQA is "wrong" because it adds euphonic distortion to the original signal. According to the author, the MQA specification deletes the original last eight bits (bits 17-24) of a 24 bit sample and replaces the original high frequency information contained in those bits with noise. That noise imparts an increased sense of air and spaciousness to the recording, at the expense of diminished high frequency detail. The author essentially sums up MQA as:

    "...a digital playback system that effectively adds the distortion of a further artificial reverb chamber, with a heavy extra dose of bloated space and ambience added to what the mastering engineer chose to give you..."

    Therefore, MQA is essentially a 16 bit digital system with an additional 8 bits of artificial ambiance and artificial spatial information. In addition to MQA's technical shortcomings, its business model for deployment is troubling. According to the article linked below, it appears that MQA is designed to squeeze payments out of everyone in the music production chain: artists, studio producers, manufacturers, distributors, and consumers.

    https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music

    I wish we could go back to the days when record companies made money by producing good NEW music that people wanted to buy, rather than constantly repackaging OLD music in a never ending stream of "remasterings" and "new formats".
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • cfrizzcfrizz Posts: 12,933
    In order for record companies to produce good music, they first have to have real musicians that know how to read, play, and sing music.

    I can't tell one female singer from the last one I just listened to, they all sound the same.
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony Bravia KDL-40R510C TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, SVS NSD-12 SB12 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,842
    How is this related to MQA?
    cfrizz wrote: »
    In order for record companies to produce good music, they first have to have real musicians that know how to read, play, and sing music.

    I can't tell one female singer from the last one I just listened to, they all sound the same.

    Got Dayens?
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,680
    Clipdat wrote: »
    How is this related to MQA?

    Read the last two paragraphs of the previous post.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,842
    Ah, ok, I see that now. That wasn't there in Darque's initial post, he edited his post.
    Viking64 wrote: »
    Read the last two paragraphs of the previous post.

    Got Dayens?
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,204
    cfrizz wrote: »
    In order for record companies to produce good music, they first have to have real musicians that know how to read, play, and sing music.

    That requires dedication, study, and discipline that appears to be in desperate short supply among generations that came after the baby boomers.
    cfrizz wrote: »
    I can't tell one female singer from the last one I just listened to, they all sound the same.

    That is because how they sound is irrelevant. What's important is the sexual fantasy they are selling...just like a stripper. Do you think strip club patrons care about how the strippers "sound"?

    When you think of female music icons from the '50s to the '80s, they weren't buying fake body parts from plastic surgeons, getting on stage half naked, and doing sexually suggestive/provocative photo shoots.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mdaudioguymdaudioguy Posts: 4,415
    edited June 20
    When you think of female music icons from the '50s to the '80s, they weren't buying fake body parts from plastic surgeons, getting on stage half naked, and doing sexually suggestive/provocative photo shoots.
    Apparently, you forgot about one of the biggest 80s stars! Found a tame pic.
    md3vygxu0p9n.jpg


    7.1 - polk RTi10 x 3 (LCR) : FXi3 x 2 : RTi4 x 4 : Sunfire SDS-12 : Yamaha Aventage RX-A2040 : Adcom GFA-7500 : Squeezebox Touch : DIRECTV : Roku SE : Panasonic PT-AX200U PJ @ 120"
    5.1 - Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800 x 4 : ProCenter 1000 : Klipsch Sub-10 : Pioneer Elite SC-91: DIRECTV : LG OLED55B6P : Roku Premiere+
    Garage Duty - polk Monitor 10s : Pioneer A-717 Integrated Amp : Squeezebox Classic
  • UpstatemaxUpstatemax Posts: 2,217
    F1nut wrote: »
    No, I haven't heard any, but have read an awful lot about it. It is lossy, it is heavily copyright protected meaning you cannot make a copy, it is proprietary to Meridian (who have tried crap like this before), the licensing costs big bucks and you need new gear to decode it. It's a win for Meridian's wallet and the record companies. It's a loss for the consumers.

    Sorry Jesse, the irony in this post is killing me.

    You're slamming something that you HAVE NOT LISTENED TO. Isn't that the exact opposite of what many of the long term members on this forum (including you) have been preaching for YEARS?

    Just look back at that post through the lens of a cable debate thread.

    I have to say that you should probably not take such a strong stance till you have given it a fair chance and are able to formulate your own opinion.

    Living room:
    Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku 3 : Oppo BDP-103 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD

    2Ch:
    Sonus Faber Venere S : Parasound HCA 1500A : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Sony XBR 55X810C Monitor :
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,816
    Upstatemax wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    No, I haven't heard any, but have read an awful lot about it. It is lossy, it is heavily copyright protected meaning you cannot make a copy, it is proprietary to Meridian (who have tried crap like this before), the licensing costs big bucks and you need new gear to decode it. It's a win for Meridian's wallet and the record companies. It's a loss for the consumers.

    Sorry Jesse, the irony in this post is killing me.

    You're slamming something that you HAVE NOT LISTENED TO. Isn't that the exact opposite of what many of the long term members on this forum (including you) have been preaching for YEARS?

    Just look back at that post through the lens of a cable debate thread.

    I have to say that you should probably not take such a strong stance till you have given it a fair chance and are able to formulate your own opinion.

    Nope, sometimes diligent research is all one needs in a matter such as this. Now, if we were talking about different MQA playback devices, which I don’t know if there are such things, then I would concede your point.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • UpstatemaxUpstatemax Posts: 2,217
    F1nut wrote: »
    Nope, sometimes diligent research is all one needs in a matter such as this. Now, if we were talking about different MQA playback devices, which I don’t know if there are such things, then I would concede your point.

    That response sounds an awful lot like a cable denier.

    Talking about "research" rather than just listening to something.

    Living room:
    Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku 3 : Oppo BDP-103 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD

    2Ch:
    Sonus Faber Venere S : Parasound HCA 1500A : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Sony XBR 55X810C Monitor :
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,842
    Could this situation be equated to the whole DVD vs. DIVX thing from back in the day?

    Hypothetically say that DIVX supposedly had "richer" colors and "better" audio than DVD, one could still be completely against the format entirely on the grounds of it's container - a protected proprietary format that required a separate hardware player to be purchased - one that "phoned home" every so often to check in with the mothership.

    It's simply refusing to accept the content within that type of container, regardless of if the content itself might be "superior" in quality.
    Got Dayens?
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,816
    Upstatemax wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Nope, sometimes diligent research is all one needs in a matter such as this. Now, if we were talking about different MQA playback devices, which I don’t know if there are such things, then I would concede your point.

    That response sounds an awful lot like a cable denier.

    Talking about "research" rather than just listening to something.

    You are missing the point.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,389
    When I first read Jesse's statement that very sentiment crossed my mind, that it did sound a bit hypocritical, until I thought a bit more and realized that deep down I felt the same way. And, for reasons that made good sense to me.
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,816
    Does one really need to hear a format that removes the original musical information and replaces it with proprietary noise?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 3,842
    That sounds worse than mp3s!
    F1nut wrote: »
    Does one really need to hear a format that removes the original musical information and replaces it with proprietary noise?

    Got Dayens?
  • UpstatemaxUpstatemax Posts: 2,217
    Next time I listen to an MQA album, I'll have to keep an ear out for all of that noise...
    Living room:
    Samsung PN50B860 50" Plasma : XBOX One : Roku 3 : Oppo BDP-103 : Pioneer Elite SC-87 : APC H15 : Focal 806V mains : Focal 806V Surrounds : SVS SB2000 : SVS SB12-NSD

    2Ch:
    Sonus Faber Venere S : Parasound HCA 1500A : Oppo UDP-205 : Furman Elite 15 DM i : Sony XBR 55X810C Monitor :
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,816
    Kind of concerning that you haven't noticed already as it's no secret what they are doing.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,204
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    When you think of female music icons from the '50s to the '80s, they weren't buying fake body parts from plastic surgeons, getting on stage half naked, and doing sexually suggestive/provocative photo shoots.
    Apparently, you forgot about one of the biggest 80s stars! Found a tame pic.
    md3vygxu0p9n.jpg

    Yes, I did forget about her. Although she is a very successful entertainer, I don't consider her a "singer" or "music icon" any more than I consider a billionaire drug cartel leader a "successful businessman".

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,389
    edited June 21
    F1nut wrote: »
    Does one really need to hear a format that removes the original musical information and replaces it with proprietary noise?

    Which is one of the reasons I have no interest. I listen to digital, but, I accept what I get and enjoy the occasional great recording that comes along. If I had my wishes I'd have RTR with high quality, or master, tapes. That's not realistic. What I'm not going to do is jump on a proprietary format that hasn't proven to be substantially better than what's currently available. A few special interest people bloviating does not sway me. In todays social media society we would know if it was really great.

    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!