McIntosh says no way to MQA.......BRAVO!!!

F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,227
"The C52’s DAC will accept PCM sample rates of 16, 24, and 32 bits, 32kHz–384kHz; DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256; and DXD 352.8kHz and DXD 384kHz. About the only standard digital format the C52 doesn’t support is Master Quality Authenticated (MQA, about which McIntosh’s engineers prefer to take a wait-and-see position, finding the format too lossy, with distortion that doesn’t meet the company’s high standards)."
Political Correctness'.........defined

"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


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Comments

  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,774
    I doubt that's the real reason. The real reason is the absurd buy in they require, unless things have changed.
    audiothesis.com/

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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,786
    edited June 14
    too lossy -- interesting. :)

    It will be interesting, I think, to read the epitaph for MQA in a couple of years when it finally expires with a whimper, not a bang -- to see how its somewhat tawdry trajectory is retro-rationalized.

    MQA (FWIW) reminds me of DIVX, a solution in search of a problem, that causes problems of its own :)
    Remember DIVX? (not to be confused with DivX, which is a different kettle of fish)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,569
    *groan* I wish I didn't remember DIVX.
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Remember DIVX?

    Got Dayens?
  • DaveHoDaveHo Posts: 1,939
    F1nut wrote: »
    "The C52’s DAC will accept PCM sample rates of 16, 24, and 32 bits, 32kHz–384kHz; DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256; and DXD 352.8kHz and DXD 384kHz. About the only standard digital format the C52 doesn’t support is Master Quality Authenticated (MQA, about which McIntosh’s engineers prefer to take a wait-and-see position, finding the format too lossy, with distortion that doesn’t meet the company’s high standards)."

    Just curious Jesse, have you heard many MQA tracks? Aside from the fact it's not "pure", what don't you like about it? Not meant to be argumentative
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,227
    No, I haven't heard any, but have read an awful lot about it. It is lossy, it is heavily copyright protected meaning you cannot make a copy, it is proprietary to Meridian (who have tried crap like this before), the licensing costs big bucks and you need new gear to decode it. It's a win for Meridian's wallet and the record companies. It's a loss for the consumers.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,569
    I haven't felt a desire to try it, and the more I read about it the less interested I am.
    Got Dayens?
  • GlennDogGlennDog Posts: 1,517
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I haven't felt a desire to try it, and the more I read about it the less interested I am.

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  • Jetmaker737Jetmaker737 Posts: 839
    I got a demo of MQA at a local hifi shop a few months ago. Went in to shop a specific integrated and instead they pointed me to Meridian and MQA. Gave some demos of MQA and non-MQA tracks. One that I recall was "Rider on the Storm" - Doors. They kept gushing about the MQA version like "isn't this so awesome?". I'm thinking to myself every time "I really like the original tracks better". But I let them prattle on and eventually left. The MQA tracks were - to me - uninvolving, lackluster, flat sounding. Can't put a real finger on it but I just didn't dig it.
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  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,774
    MQA might be fine as an actual format - I don't know. My personal idea is that it is nothing more than adding an EQ to each file so that it fits their desired tone. In the beginning MQA said the only way you could unfold MQA was for them to have input on the build stage and get their hands on the DAC. MANY companies balked at this. In fact, in the beginning AURALiC was MQA certified. The certification was pulled because MQA realized that the files were unfolded in the streamer and being sent to any DAC, meaning MQA didn't have their hands in whatever was converting it to analog.

    Fast forward a bit and after enough balking from big manufacturers, MQA announces that no, you don't have to have us touch your hardware, you can do it via software! How convenient for them! IIRC, this ONLY happened after some companies found a way to unfold the files with their own code.

    North Star contemplated this but when I learned the details I was hoping they wouldn't follow suit. The investment from a manufacturer standpoint is astounding. I imagine the greatness of this file format and the big push for the guys who run Meridian (IIRC its not a part of Meridian directly) was that they could literally grab money from anyone and everyone involved in the format.



    As a dealer, I've noticed a drop in clients who require MQA as a feature for their digital needs. I think McIntosh held off long enough to see what it was and finally made a statement that they wouldn't be jumping on board. If MQA had a nominal fee for the certification, you bet every Joe, Dick, and Harry would've been on board. They got greedy though and the industry fought back.

    I think at RMAF 2017, there was supposed to be a Q&A for the guys from MQA and questions were not going to be screened. I remember reading a thread about someone who was asked to be a part of it (can't remember which forum now) and the MQA guys got cold feet and cancelled it well before the event. What is interesting is that THEY were the ones who were setting it up. They must have realized how bad they were going to look if they went through and pulled the rug up just in time.



    For what its worth, I don't mind DRM or copy protection on my digital files. Its almost impossible to achieve, but if done, I wouldn't be moaning about it. I think the artists deserve to get more money for their work since album sales are declining.
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,786
    it's got a little of that good old fashioned black magic (ahem) folded into it -- proprietary algorithms to fold and unfold the data.

    Proprietary, in the long run, just never seems like a good idea for a platform.

    Just my opinion, albeit hardly a humble one.
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • KennethSwaugerKennethSwauger Moderator Posts: 6,582
    edited June 15
    This is an article written by Peter Moncrieff who used to publish an audiophile magazine called IAR (International Audio Review) that was well respected. It takes a little patience to plow through his writing style but there is genuine knowledge to be gleaned. Here is his opinion on the subject:
    http://www.iar-80.com/page170.html
    "And the house you live in will never fall down
    If you pity the stranger who stands at your gate" G.Lightfoot
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,786
    This is an article written by Peter Moncrieff who used to publish an audiophile magazine called IAR (International Audio Review) that was well respected. It takes a little patience to plow through his writing style but there is genuine knowledge to be gleaned. Here is his opinion on the subject:
    http://www.iar-80.com/page170.html

    Thanks for sharing that, Ken -- and I am gonna read it... but...


    I could not help but roll my eyes reading the first few paragraphs.
    The level of humility communicated by the author is -- well -- words fail me.

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,585
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    it's got a little of that good old fashioned black magic (ahem) folded into it -- proprietary algorithms to fold and unfold the data.

    Proprietary, in the long run, just never seems like a good idea for a platform.

    Just my opinion, albeit hardly a humble one.

    Even Apple somewhat recognizes that fact. ;)
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,786
    tonyb wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    it's got a little of that good old fashioned black magic (ahem) folded into it -- proprietary algorithms to fold and unfold the data.

    Proprietary, in the long run, just never seems like a good idea for a platform.

    Just my opinion, albeit hardly a humble one.

    Even Apple somewhat recognizes that fact. ;)

    Don't get me started...


    ;)
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,786
    edited June 15
    oops, too late :p


    Imagine if Henry Ford had called the Model T an ecosystem instead of insisting that the customer could have Any color you want, as long as it's black.

    We'd probably still be driving cars with two wheel brakes and gravity-feed fuel systems.

    B)
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • KennethSwaugerKennethSwauger Moderator Posts: 6,582
    "The level of humility communicated by the author is -- well -- words fail me."

    Yea, he raises hyperbole to a new limit, but I've always felt smarter after I've absorbed what he says. I still look at the old issues of IAR he's done in the past for clues as to classic gear. He was one of the first people to really investigate the changes in sound produced by different capacitors. Some of his articles on turntable design are very instructional, especially the effects of bearings. The same for cables and speaker wire. He along with Enid Lumley (she was the original tweaker) developed some speaker wire using multiple runs of Romex that were supposed to be good.
    "And the house you live in will never fall down
    If you pity the stranger who stands at your gate" G.Lightfoot
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,578
    Wait a minute! Caps all have different sound signatures????

    Mind Blown....
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,101
    I read about 80% of the first page of Peter Moncrieff's document. I've edited lots of lengthy legal and medical documents on a professional level, and even I was left feeling physically exhausted. :p

    To his credit, he did make some rather interesting statements and he has a knack for getting his point across. But once he builds a phrase that he likes, he's not afraid to use it repeatedly. HAHAHA
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,101
    Yea, he raises hyperbole to a new limit, but I've always felt smarter after I've absorbed what he says.

    ^^^^ Yes, this.
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,101
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Wait a minute! Caps all have different sound signatures????

    Mind Blown....

    Don't listen. People are just trying to sell you expensive stuff. :p
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 14,774
    All sorts of flavors, though I'm not sure the caps actually TASTE any differently...

    138802781.JlAz33PS.jpg
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Pienza, Certaldo, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S15, RTA 15tl, RTi12; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum, Legato Unum, Legato Semis, Legato Duo; Emerald Physics CS-2.8; Klipsch KLF-20
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
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    Integrateds: Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: BoX, Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
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  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,578
    DSkip wrote: »
    All sorts of flavors, though I'm not sure the caps actually TASTE any differently...

    138802781.JlAz33PS.jpg

    Go to your room!!!
    LOL Smart ankle ;)
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,227
    This is an article written by Peter Moncrieff who used to publish an audiophile magazine called IAR (International Audio Review) that was well respected. It takes a little patience to plow through his writing style but there is genuine knowledge to be gleaned. Here is his opinion on the subject:
    http://www.iar-80.com/page170.html

    Thanks Ken, quite an informative read.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • KennethSwaugerKennethSwauger Moderator Posts: 6,582
    You're welcome.
    "And the house you live in will never fall down
    If you pity the stranger who stands at your gate" G.Lightfoot
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 10,091
    I can’t comment on MQA since I haven’t evaluated it. When the Japanese MQA CDs are available on 6/20 I will get Exile On Main Street, and Wheels Of Fire. I have both as SHM SACDs, will rip the MQA CDs to the Lumin, and then do a comparison. At that point, I should have a starting point to be able to discuss MQA.

    I do agree proprietary and licensing have no place in audio formats.

    That article made me think the author is the Roger Russell of digital. :)

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  • JuanRJuanR Posts: 679
    This is an article written by Peter Moncrieff who used to publish an audiophile magazine called IAR (International Audio Review) that was well respected. It takes a little patience to plow through his writing style but there is genuine knowledge to be gleaned. Here is his opinion on the subject:
    http://www.iar-80.com/page170.html

    Great reading, while I agree with much said, in the end, your equipment translates all the data, MQA, PCM, etc...and IF what you hear sounds GREAT...then that's what its all about...

    I happen to enjoy Master Recordings on Tidal, but have also noted that vinyl has bested it...

    YMMV...

    Juan
  • halenhalen Posts: 346
    No idea what MQA was. Heard it tossed around lots. Now I know. Also why I don’t care.
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,464
    edited June 16
    halen wrote: »
    No idea what MQA was. Heard it tossed around lots. Now I know. Also why I don’t care.

    I've heard of it but never experienced it, and, I'm with you Halen, I don't care. It will have to be proven to me that it's nearly the second coming before I'll go down that path.
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  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 4,184
    My lumin does full mqa. I can hear the difference between a regularl file on tidl and the MQA version kn tidal. The MQA version sounds better to my ears BUT, I'm not 100% convinced its because of MQA. I think a lot of it is a better mastering. On tidal, sometimes i see 3-4 icons of the same cd. You can usually hear the difference between the versions probably because they were mastered differently.

    So, while i can say on the Lumin MQA does sound better and streams at a better bit rate ( 24/96 24/129. 24/192) I just cant tell if its the MQA or not. Blue Fox, your test might be the better way to go.
    Lumin D1, KEF LS50 Wireless, Cayin scd-50T, LH Labs VI Dac, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9, HP I7 Laptop, Wireworld Eclipse 7, Wireworld Aurora, Wireworld Electra 7, Signal Magic Digital, Cardas Quadralink 5C, Velodyne SPL1200
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