Power cables

newbie308 · January 17

I didn't want to believe it either. A year or two ago, I would have agreed with you 100%. I didn't have the finances or the interest in dumping money into a power cable. Do I want to spend over $1k on a power cable now? Not really, but I will if that's what it takes to get to the sound that I enjoy. I realize now that the power cable is just another component in the system.

jbreezy5 · January 17

VR3 wrote: »

There's something about this hobby that is particularly interesting.

2 years ago, me and @treitz3 literally had different stereo systems. I would say by all accounts, we both had very very good systems.

There was a point though after a major speaker acquisition that we both caught the bug and the setups we have now are so vastly superior to those prior setups.

I don't know how measurements play into relaying how a speaker images and soundstage depth and how 3d an image is. In my experience though that is where most of the changes I hear come from. The way stereo can image is mind boggling. To experience full 360 degree imaging and 30 wide soundstages and 30 ft of depth is really addictive.

With that said, I have like a governor in this hobby that starts to kick in where it no longer becomes fun. When I am so invested monetarily, I start to lose enjoyment. That is part of the reason I quasi started over again. I don't like owning super expensive equipment, especially if not near fully devalued from time.

Money doesn't buy good sound, taking the time to find synergistic matches to your system is and maximizing placement and trying different cables and tubes etc etc

When people look at only specs and make decisions only on that, they might as well find a new hobby.

Gear with very similar specs and measurements can sound vastly different.

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

The sound perceived with cables is not necessarily commensurate with price.

DarqueKnight · January 17

tonyb wrote: »

Once you experience what a silent noise floor does for the reproduction of music, there is no going back....Audio is a journey, a collection of experiences, which means different things to different people. Trial and error....as best you can, with the wallet you have.

Experience? Experiences? Trial and error? That's WORK It is much easier to let someone else do all the thinking (and do all the work).

I have done some noise spectrum (Fast Fourier Transform) measurements of various power cords. The high performance cords measured better than the basic cords. I still had to listen though.

It seems that a lot of people are not aware that stereophonic sound is an aural illusion created in the brain of the listener. By what scientific means can an illusion be measured? What performance metrics correlate to things like sound stage dimensions and image solidity?

It also seems that a lot of people have an inordinate concern about merchandise they have no intention of buying. I (currently) have less than zero interest in tube audio gear, vinyl, and turntables. Therefore, I have less than zero need to be "educated" about $100,000 tube amplifiers, $400 rare vinyl pressings, $200,000 turntables, and $15,000 phono cartridges.

In the future, when I am more dedicated to consumer research than I am now, I will ask a group of women to educate me on the need for a $10,000 Louis Vuitton handbag or a $52,000 Gucci handbag. Of course, part of my education will be proof that the uber expensive handbags are objectively and measurable better than any other high quality leather handbag costing around $200.

Joey_V · January 17

All I know is that with this hobby, you can never know what will or won’t work. There’s a reason there’s been discussion about cables since decades ago… someone heard something, then someone else, then so on and so forth. Who am I to discount their opinion and experiences?

In the end, I tried it myself after being so resistant. And while I know they make a difference, I also know where their yield no longer makes sense for me - so I keep an eye on their ROI.

tratliff · January 17

If you do question what power cables can do why not jump on the trial. What a great way to see what they can offer. Also find a dealer that will let you give them a trail.

displayname · January 17

gyosa wrote: »

displayname wrote: »

gyosa wrote: »

Someone please educate me … I was perusing the Snake River power cable thread …

How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?

Bk

I'm curious, has this thread swayed your opinion in any way?

Honestly, not really….
I’m all for using “good” cabling - speaker cable , interconnects etc…
I’m just not buying into the benefits of an esoteric exotic $1,000 power cable .
Everything I’ve ever read just doesn’t support it.
I think “confirmation bias” may be a player here.

For example -

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/power-cables

Y’all trust blue jeans cables , right ?

The way something “sounds” is very subjective, but measurements don’t lie , and I haven’t seen any evidence that these exotic cables “measure” in such a way as to impact the “sound” for the better.

That’s just my opinion , to each their own .
Thanks for the insight though !
I was curious.

Bk

Honestly, just enjoy it then. Don’t spend your hobby money on something you don’t feel good about.

But if you get a chance to try it, then try it. Doesn’t hurt to reaffirm if you still don’t hear anything special or different.

jbreezy5 · January 17

DarqueKnight wrote: »

…Experience? Experiences? Trial and error? That's WORK It is much easier to let someone else do all the thinking (and do all the work).

I have done some noise spectrum (Fast Fourier Transform) measurements of various power cords. The high performance cords measured better than the basic cords. I still had to listen though.

…By what scientific means can an illusion be measured? What performance metrics correlate to things like sound stage dimensions and image solidity?

If swapping cables and listening is how Americans define work, our nation is in a kore terrifying state than I’ve ever imagined. Man that is lazy.

Cool that you did FFT experiments.

There are measurements that correlate to the human ability to perceive soundstaging and imaging characteristics.

For example, The Denafrips Ares II DAC has a slight roll-off in high frequencies (see Stereophile review). This may cause a decrease in one’s sense of upper frequency range detail, which is a major contributor to a sense of soundstaging expansiveness and/or airiness.

This same thing happens with speakers. Speakers that have superior off-axis responses tend to have perceptibly wider soundstages.

I can agree that not all things that can be measured directly correlate to what is heard; but some measurements do directly correlate to what we hear.

It makes sense to me that cables have sonic characteristics.

I almost think to convince someone of this, instead of having them compare silver and copper, they should compare copper to a less conductive metal. Sometimes discerning loss of fidelity is easier than hearing slight sonic changes/improvements.

gyosa · January 17

tratliff wrote: »

If you do question what power cables can do why not jump on the trial. What a great way to see what they can offer…..

Ok , good idea …who do I contact ?

Bk

bcwsrt · January 17

@treitz3 ^^^

treitz3 · January 17

Would you like to be put in the rotation? If so, I would be happy to add you to the list.

One caveat - there are rules to be in the demo. You must post your impressions (good, bad or indifferent) after your demo. Also, the demo program only offers you two weeks to evaluate said PC. [EDIT:] You must also ship said cables onto the next person (insured) on your own dime.

What it would offer you is a glimpse into the potential...

Just let me know what you would like to do. I am fine either way.

Tom

gyosa · January 17

treitz3 wrote: »

Would you like to be put in the rotation? If so, I would be happy to add you to the list.

One caveat - there are rules to be in the demo. You must post your impressions (good, bad or indifferent) after your demo. Also, the demo program only offers you two weeks to evaluate said PC. [EDIT:] You must also ship said cables onto the next person (insured) on your own dime.

What it would offer you is a glimpse into the potential...

Just let me know what you would like to do. I am fine either way.

Tom

That would be great Tom….

Let’s see for myself…
Otherwise I get the feeling y’all will ex-communicate me ..
😃😃

Someone gimme a heads-up first , I’m an airline pilot and have an erratic schedule.

✈️

Bk

treitz3 · January 17

Naw, we aren't that kind of crowd. There are many folks who would love for you to see hear what differences they can make. You have some nice gear. Let it play to it's (possible) potential.

Here's what I need from you...

Full legal name
Moniker
Valid and current email address
Phone number
Emergency contact (preferably someone that lives at your home)
Shipping address
Please include which PC you voted for/requested for demo in your PM

Please PM me with all of this information (None of it will be released to the public).

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask in your PM. I'm actually glad that you are willing to try. This is a rare opportunity to try a high end PC out at minimal cost.

Tom

gyosa · January 18

Tom

PM sent ..

Bk

DarqueKnight · January 18

jbreezy5 wrote: »

If swapping cables and listening is how Americans define work, our nation is in a kore terrifying state than I’ve ever imagined. Man that is lazy.

Critical listening of a stereophonic sound field is work. There are so many things to evaluate. I found that I need to take detailed notes.

jbreezy5 wrote: »

There are measurements that correlate to the human ability to perceive soundstaging and imaging characteristics.

For example, The Denafrips Ares II DAC has a slight roll-off in high frequencies (see Stereophile review). This may cause a decrease in one’s sense of upper frequency range detail, which is a major contributor to a sense of soundstaging expansiveness and/or airiness.

This same thing happens with speakers. Speakers that have superior off-axis responses tend to have perceptibly wider soundstages.

Bell Laboratories did some studies on enhancing the sound localization performance of home stereo systems. The problem is that laboratory results cannot always be replicated due to differences in room acoustics, and associated electronics.

displayname · January 18

gyosa wrote: »

treitz3 wrote: »

Would you like to be put in the rotation? If so, I would be happy to add you to the list.

One caveat - there are rules to be in the demo. You must post your impressions (good, bad or indifferent) after your demo. Also, the demo program only offers you two weeks to evaluate said PC. [EDIT:] You must also ship said cables onto the next person (insured) on your own dime.

What it would offer you is a glimpse into the potential...

Just let me know what you would like to do. I am fine either way.

Tom

That would be great Tom….

Let’s see for myself…
Otherwise I get the feeling y’all will ex-communicate me ..
😃😃

Someone gimme a heads-up first , I’m an airline pilot and have an erratic schedule.

✈️

Bk

That’s the right attitude. Have fun!

heiney9 · January 18

jbreezy5 wrote: »

DarqueKnight wrote: »

…Experience? Experiences? Trial and error? That's WORK It is much easier to let someone else do all the thinking (and do all the work).

I have done some noise spectrum (Fast Fourier Transform) measurements of various power cords. The high performance cords measured better than the basic cords. I still had to listen though.

…By what scientific means can an illusion be measured? What performance metrics correlate to things like sound stage dimensions and image solidity?

If swapping cables and listening is how Americans define work, our nation is in a kore terrifying state than I’ve ever imagined. Man that is lazy.

Cool that you did FFT experiments.

There are measurements that correlate to the human ability to perceive soundstaging and imaging characteristics.

For example, The Denafrips Ares II DAC has a slight roll-off in high frequencies (see Stereophile review). This may cause a decrease in one’s sense of upper frequency range detail, which is a major contributor to a sense of soundstaging expansiveness and/or airiness.

This same thing happens with speakers. Speakers that have superior off-axis responses tend to have perceptibly wider soundstages.

I can agree that not all things that can be measured directly correlate to what is heard; but some measurements do directly correlate to what we hear.

It makes sense to me that cables have sonic characteristics.

I almost think to convince someone of this, instead of having them compare silver and copper, they should compare copper to a less conductive metal. Sometimes discerning loss of fidelity is easier than hearing slight sonic changes/improvements.

Actually what you say is not true, a "bright" sounding piece of gear doesn't have more or less aural queues with regards to soundstage or airiness any more or less than a neutral or warm piece of gear. Now this may be YOUR perception, but as far as measurement go, that's simply not true.

Now, types of distortion present can have the affect you mention, 2nd or 3rd harmonics whether they are present, higher or lower, can give the illusion of a deeper, wider soundstage and that aural feeling of airiness. But you can;t say because it measures rolled off it's going to be this or that with regards to the soundstage height, width or depth or airiness.

The aural queues our brain perceives aren't easily correlated to specific measurements except the above seems to be general truth according to Nelson Pass. His SIT 3 amplifier has a knob on the front to vary distortion levels and one can perceive slight differences in presentation, set it where you like.

H9

Emlyn · January 18

DarqueKnight's point about room acoustics is exactly right. To me the room is just as important as the electronic gear and speakers for stereo presentation. Put the same audio system in a large room that has windows on three sides and a suspended wooden floor covered with ceramic tiles and it'll sound profoundly different than the same system put in a medium sized basement room with a slab floor with too many bass traps and other room treatments. And neither of those rooms will be ideal but some people may think the gear is to blame for bad sound. Tinkering with cables won't fix the location problems.

jbreezy5 · January 19

heiney9 wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

DarqueKnight wrote: »

…Experience? Experiences? Trial and error? That's WORK It is much easier to let someone else do all the thinking (and do all the work).

I have done some noise spectrum (Fast Fourier Transform) measurements of various power cords. The high performance cords measured better than the basic cords. I still had to listen though.

…By what scientific means can an illusion be measured? What performance metrics correlate to things like sound stage dimensions and image solidity?

If swapping cables and listening is how Americans define work, our nation is in a kore terrifying state than I’ve ever imagined. Man that is lazy.

Cool that you did FFT experiments.

There are measurements that correlate to the human ability to perceive soundstaging and imaging characteristics.

For example, The Denafrips Ares II DAC has a slight roll-off in high frequencies (see Stereophile review). This may cause a decrease in one’s sense of upper frequency range detail, which is a major contributor to a sense of soundstaging expansiveness and/or airiness.

This same thing happens with speakers. Speakers that have superior off-axis responses tend to have perceptibly wider soundstages.

I can agree that not all things that can be measured directly correlate to what is heard; but some measurements do directly correlate to what we hear.

It makes sense to me that cables have sonic characteristics.

I almost think to convince someone of this, instead of having them compare silver and copper, they should compare copper to a less conductive metal. Sometimes discerning loss of fidelity is easier than hearing slight sonic changes/improvements.

Actually what you say is not true, a "bright" sounding piece of gear doesn't have more or less aural queues with regards to soundstage or airiness any more or less than a neutral or warm piece of gear. Now this may be YOUR perception, but as far as measurement go, that's simply not true.

Now, types of distortion present can have the affect you mention, 2nd or 3rd harmonics whether they are present, higher or lower, can give the illusion of a deeper, wider soundstage and that aural feeling of airiness. But you can;t say because it measures rolled off it's going to be this or that with regards to the soundstage height, width or depth or airiness.

The aural queues our brain perceives aren't easily correlated to specific measurements except the above seems to be general truth according to Nelson Pass. His SIT 3 amplifier has a knob on the front to vary distortion levels and one can perceive slight differences in presentation, set it where you like.

H9

I actually never said anything about “bright” sounding pieces of gear. Yours was a straw man response.

jbreezy5 · January 19

DarqueKnight wrote: »

jbreezy5 wrote: »

If swapping cables and listening is how Americans define work, our nation is in a kore terrifying state than I’ve ever imagined. Man that is lazy.

Critical listening of a stereophonic sound field is work. There are so many things to evaluate. I found that I need to take detailed notes.

jbreezy5 wrote: »

There are measurements that correlate to the human ability to perceive soundstaging and imaging characteristics.

For example, The Denafrips Ares II DAC has a slight roll-off in high frequencies (see Stereophile review). This may cause a decrease in one’s sense of upper frequency range detail, which is a major contributor to a sense of soundstaging expansiveness and/or airiness.

This same thing happens with speakers. Speakers that have superior off-axis responses tend to have perceptibly wider soundstages.

Bell Laboratories did some studies on enhancing the sound localization performance of home stereo systems. The problem is that laboratory results cannot always be replicated due to differences in room acoustics, and associated electronics.

That’s why people get into room treatments.

Phrases used in my above post, such as “tend to”, leave room that there may be exceptional circumstances; however, the basic principles remain static.

Power cables

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