Power cables
Comments
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How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?
William pointed out that your original question was never answered, so I thought I'd chime in an at least "attempt" to answer this.
First off, the electrical supply that feeds those hundreds of miles going down to your supplying transformer, to your meter and then through the walls to end up at your outlet. Not an ideal way to get clean electricity, but it's what we all equally have to deal with. One can only hope that everything was done to minimize electrical interference and noise but that's all one can do. Hope.
When wiring is inside walls, hopefully the electrician installing your runs didn't put 5 runs together down a long run that leads to your rig (or where you would want to test said PC). EMI (Electro-magnetic interference) would be off the charts high, if this were the case. But let's hope they didn't do this. Now, we must look at your wall. One side is Romex (permanently placed) with an outlet to connect PC's and the other are all consumer grade cords to use at will.
These cords are at the mercy of what's connected to and plugged into said outlet, along with being at the mercy of room to place them all in....correctly. Many of these cords end up being ran in parallel, and within close proximity to other PC's and other IC's. This is not a good combination, as it picks up noise.
This is where the construction of the PC comes into play.To include but not limited to -
The electrical properties of each PC. Current, voltage, resistance and impedance. If you have too thin wires that are too long, they add too much resistance, and flowing current will cause too much voltage drop. Longer wires add inductance. Inductance will make it to where current isn't delivered as quickly.
Then, one must consider the conductor material. This can also change the aforementioned in terms of impedance, voltage, current and resistance. Differing conductors also have differing speeds. Silver, for example, is known as a very fast metal.
Another equally important part of the equation. Dielectric materials are poor conductors of electricity because they do not have any loosely bound or free electrons that may drift through the material. Electrons are required to support the flow of an electric current. The current flows from the positive to the negative terminal and, in the opposite direction, as free electrons that flow from the negative to the positive terminal.
Dielectric materials support dielectric polarization, which enables them to act as dielectrics rather than conductors. This phenomenon occurs when a dielectric is placed in an electric field and positive charges are displaced in the direction of the electric field, while the negative charges are displaced in the opposite direction. Such polarization creates a strong internal field, which reduces the overall electric field within the material.
The shielding, dielectric, construction design (Like the "Eddie twist" the Snake River PC's utilize), sheathing, solder type, rating, current capacity and connector quality can all help to thwart EMI/RFI from entering into said cable or interfering with other cables that are in in close proximity.
Some cables use something called Ferrite (or a choke) to thwart EMI and other electrical frequency noises. They can also change the inductance of a PC.
So, to sum this all up. Before the wall and outlet, everything is fixed. After the outlet, a PC has the ability to change the electrical signal that the component sees, using the various types of materials and construction mentioned. All of the aforementioned can have a very audible effect on the end result as to what hits your ears. Or, at least, they have the ability too.
I hope this helps you understand at least why PC's have the ability to change what we hear. These are just the basics and it gets way more involved but without really getting deep into the math, engineering and stuff that gets really complicated quickly, it should offer at least some insight.
I guess one could think of them as the "final filter" before the electrical signals hit your components....
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
If one were to budget for only ONE high-end cable , where would it be better served , the power amp or streamer/preamp ?
As mentioned, you wouldn't even need to budget for one (other than the cost of shipping it off to the next member, insured) if you joined in on the Snake River Demo program.
I can't answer that question any more than anyone else could. All systems are different from each other and there are so many variables in play, that all we could do is "suggest" where (based upon our experience", the most effective placement would be.
When I got my first SR PC, I placed it in my DAC and was amazed at what it brought to the table. As it turns out, that was one of the least effective spot for a PC. In my system, it was much more effective when I utilized them in my pre and source. Equally impressive in my amp.
What I usually do is continually swap out PC's (listening to one or two songs in-between) to find out where the effect has changed the most. Fortunately, that is a pretty easy task to do in my rig. YMMV but it sounds like you have some rather impressive gear, so it may be the same for you. Anyhoo, once I have found the most impressive change, I keep the PC in that spot for at least a week before making any true observations/critical listening. Why? My experience is that they change over time and my first listening impressions never mimic the impressions I observe after some time (and use) has been factored in.And if you just used one , would the stock cable “choke” the “good” one , negating the benefits ?
No.I’m just trying to understand $1,200 for a power cable.
There is never any "need" for a $1,200.00 power cord. Any standard cord that comes with the component you originally bought would suffice. An upgraded PC is something that can completely change your system.....or has the ability to, shall I say. Again. not all PC's can and will introduce a change. Some can absolutely ruin the sound and others can transform your rig into playing back a reproductive effort that can make you wonder why you need to change anything else in your system and end the gear merry-go round once and for all.
PC's are something I started with about 20 or 25 years ago. I kept trying differing ones, experimented with others and tried some other heavy hitters in my rig and over the course of time, learned a few things along the way. When I heard the first Snake River PC in my rig? I knew this was the one for me. The synergy within my rig with these cables were second to none. Now, I even have a custom metallurgy blend that I will only buy from now on because it was specifically tailored to my rig and my rig only.
It all boils down to this - How much do you want to extract out of your rig and is it worth the investment to you to go through what others have done swapping out PC's to achieve your own personal audio bliss. If it isn't worth it to you? That's only for you to decide. It's your audio journey and we can't enjoy it for you.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Someone please educate me … I was perusing the Snake River power cable thread …
How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?
Bk
We used to have a saying around here..."everything matters". To the degree it matters is really system dependent, quality of the power cord dependent, and ones ability to hear.
Many will say cables don't matter, and they use various reasons why, but never actually try for themselves. Comparing cheap cables to one another is useless.
Different metallurgy in cables, quality of the wire, connectors/plugs, gauge, ability to conduct with out adding noise....and to me, noise is key or I should say the absence of it be it from a componant or cable. Once you experience what a silent noise floor does for the reproduction of music, there is no going back. Your hooked like a Grouper in Florida. Audio is a journey, a collection of experiences, which means different things to different people. Trial and error....as best you can, with the wallet you have. Rock on, and by all means, go to some audio shows, hook up with some members here who may live close to you, We are a friendly bunch, except on Mondays....lolHT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
And if you just used one , would the stock cable “choke” the “good” one , negating the benefits ?No.
Please allow me to expand on this me a tad bit further. Yes and no.
Referring to the chain analogy.....the weakest link will always exhibit itself as said weakest link. No matter if we are talking about gear, IC's or PC's. If you place the PC at or near an endpoint (pre or source), the effect of the other (let's say a stock cord) cord will be minimal. If one were to place the upgraded PC at the beginning of the chain, in this case, yes. The effects would be that you would choke out the effects of said PC to a more detrimental effect.
As I am currently finding out, with the addition of each SR PC I have added, the effect has been cumulative. I like the end result so much, eventually, I will probably end up with a full loom....as the wallet allows, of course. As you know, they are definitely not a low cost item.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The big argument with non- believer's is how can it make a difference when there is miles of wire before your service, but your components are drawing the current, so it technically starts at the component. When nothing is plugged into a dedicated circuit how much current is being drawn, not very much.
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Another telling observation regarding the miles of wire thing is why does having a fridge, microwave, and light dimmer switch on the same electrical circuit have a negative effect on a sound system. Or why does a noisy switch mode power supply in a component produce worse sound in a system. A power cord won't solve these problems by itself. It may or may not help. The idea is to do as much as one wants to do to lower the noise floor for an audio system. But most people don't care.
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Not a believer at one point we wellMagico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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An excellent low cost power cable is the supra lorad, very inexpensive and works as it should- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-try-supra-lorad-2-5-pcs
Link to the Supra Lorad (albeit the 2.5 but it discusses the lower models too). FWIW.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Never get high on your own supply
Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156 -
Speakers: Polk Lsim, ATC SCM19 v2, NHT SuperzeroSpeaker Cables: DH Labs, Transparent, Wireworld, Canare, Monster: Beer budget, Bose ears
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I thought it was Yoda speak.
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I had a dedicated 20amp line installed from the breaker box to my Den - 15 feet..
All my stereo gear is exclusively connected to that line.
Interesting topic….
BkPS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
Lol
I was not a believer “as” wellMagico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R -
Ah, that makes much more sense. 😉
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Someone please educate me … I was perusing the Snake River power cable thread …
How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?
BkIf one were to budget for only ONE high-end cable , where would it be better served , the power amp or streamer/preamp ?
And if you just used one , would the stock cable “choke” the “good” one , negating the benefits ?
I’m just trying to understand $1,200 for a power cable .
Someone , anyone , explain it to me .
Bk
I became a serious stereophonic audio hobbyist in 1985. I did not begin to pursue high performance, high end audio equipment until 18 years later, in 2003. After 20 years in this hobby, I bought my first aftermarket power cords, two 8-foot long Signal Cable MagicPower cords in 2005. They cost $79 each. Even with my modest Adcom gear of that time, I could hear a difference and improvement with the Signal Cable cords. As I moved up to better gear with lower electrical noise profiles and higher signal resolutions, I began to be able to discern more differences in power cables and interconnects.
A cable that is "competently designed" does not equate to optimally designed. All cars come with "competently designed" tires...but you can always buy better, higher performing tires. There are quality and performance levels in everything. I was quite satisfied with the "competently designed" power cords that came with my audio gear...for a long time. It was only when my interest moved to higher performance audio gear that I became interested in higher performance cables.
Better power cords have better noise rejection performance due to conductor geometry, shielding, conductor metallurgy, etc. If your gear is of sufficient resolution, and has had good electrical noise abatement, and if the power in your home is sufficiently clean, you may hear a benefit from a high performance power cord...or you MAY NOT.
As for the question about "understanding" a $1,200 power cable, it should be no more difficult to understand than a $3,000 set of tires or any other high end, high performance item. You wouldn't put a $3,000 set of tires on some old beater with a Bluebook value of $1,000. Likewise, you wouldn't use $1,200 power cords with a stereo system with an MSRP of $1,000. I do have some $1,200 power cords (PS Audio AC-12s), but they are used in a stereo system with a six-figure retail price. It's all relative to what your stereophonic performance goals are.
If you are interested in experimenting with better power cords, you may find that the most benefit comes with putting them on power amplifiers. However, this is system dependent and you should move the cord under evaluation around to source components, preamp, and power amp.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I'll avoid answering the "why" but can relay some of my own experience.
I purchased a few signal power cables early on in my audio journey to replace stock cords, more than 15 year ago? I really didn't hear any difference but it was relatively short money. Put me in the non-believer camp.
Many years and pieces of gear later I made a change to ICs and speaker cable and heard a small but noticeable difference, enough to warrant keeping them. I already had a dedicated line at this point but not sure I heard any appreciable difference from this change alone. Dimmer switches and certain times of day still add a bit of noise and sometimes mid-day sounds best compared to the evenings etc.
I continued to acquire higher quality gear and borrowed a power conditioner from my dealer. I was very, very impressed and bought it. It significantly reduced noise floor and created more black space. I subsequently purchased more expensive power cords which made a nice but not huge difference. More of the same quieter background. I took away that the noise and crosstalk in the system itself and across all the cables do make a real difference however they are designed to filter or carry the power.
Recently after acquiring the Perspective 2 speakers I placed a relatively expensive power cable from my amp to the wall and WOW! Very pronounced and distinct imaging, solid bottom end and even cleaner, blacker background.
I didn't purchase it due to the price, but I will certainly be looking to identify similar improvements from less expensive PCs in the future through demos, trials and return policy.
I think my point, as others have pointed out, are that you at least need reasonable quality gear to hear the difference and even then, not every power cord or every piece of equipment will yield similar results. You will need to take your own journey and decide for yourself.
Clean power and reducing noise is certainly a larger consideration at this point than it has been in the past.
Best of luck,
RichAnalog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin T2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC: Denafrips Pontus II Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Pass X150.8 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Morrow M4 ICs & Audio Art SC-5 ePlus, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels -
I often wonder if the cheaper cables negatively affect sound quality because they have some level of radioactive particles in the copper. I would think that the various oxygen free long grain crystal copper conductors are refined significantly more than the average Chinese power cord such that they have a lower background level of radioactive particles. I know that lab equipment has to be manufactured from "low background" metals because the levels of radioactive particles in the cheaper metals actually affect the readings on sensitive equipment.
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005AIPC..785..170A/abstractSources: Technics SL1200MKII | SME3009 Tonearm | Monster Alpha 1 MC cartridge | Oppo UDP203 disk player | Nikko NT-790 analog tuner | Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC | Preamp: Threshold SL-10 | Amplifier: Threshold Stasis 2 | Speakers: Snell Acoustics C/V | Kimber 12-TC bi wire speakers | Analysis plus Oval 1 preamp to amp | Wireworld Eclipse 7 DAC to Preamp | Wireworld eclipse digital IC Oppo to DAC | Audioquest Quartz tuner to preamp | -
I thought Chinese copper recycled soda cans and door knobs?- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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There is actually supposed to be some really good Chinese high end cables, but they are all knockoffs.
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Someone please educate me … I was perusing the Snake River power cable thread …
How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?
Bk
I'm curious, has this thread swayed your opinion in any way?Analog: MoFi MasterTracker > MoFi UltraDeck > Sutherland 20/20
Digital: Cambridge CXC / Streaming > Cambridge CXN v2
MastersounD Dueventi > Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo or Arcam rHead > Hifiman HE4XX
Discogs -
displayname wrote: »Someone please educate me … I was perusing the Snake River power cable thread …
How is it possible that a power cable can have an impact on a component’s sound vs any other competently designed cable - meaning the one that was supplied with said component ?
Bk
I'm curious, has this thread swayed your opinion in any way?
Honestly, not really….
I’m all for using “good” cabling - speaker cable , interconnects etc…
I’m just not buying into the benefits of an esoteric exotic $1,000 power cable .
Everything I’ve ever read just doesn’t support it.
I think “confirmation bias” may be a player here.
For example -
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/power-cables
Y’all trust blue jeans cables , right ?
The way something “sounds” is very subjective, but measurements don’t lie , and I haven’t seen any evidence that these exotic cables “measure” in such a way as to impact the “sound” for the better.
That’s just my opinion , to each their own .
Thanks for the insight though !
I was curious.
Bk
PS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
You have a case of conformational denial.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
There's something about this hobby that is particularly interesting.
2 years ago, me and @treitz3 literally had different stereo systems. I would say by all accounts, we both had very very good systems.
There was a point though after a major speaker acquisition that we both caught the bug and the setups we have now are so vastly superior to those prior setups.
I don't know how measurements play into relaying how a speaker images and soundstage depth and how 3d an image is. In my experience though that is where most of the changes I hear come from. The way stereo can image is mind boggling. To experience full 360 degree imaging and 30 wide soundstages and 30 ft of depth is really addictive.
With that said, I have like a governor in this hobby that starts to kick in where it no longer becomes fun. When I am so invested monetarily, I start to lose enjoyment. That is part of the reason I quasi started over again. I don't like owning super expensive equipment, especially if not near fully devalued from time.
Money doesn't buy good sound, taking the time to find synergistic matches to your system is and maximizing placement and trying different cables and tubes etc etc
When people look at only specs and make decisions only on that, they might as well find a new hobby.
Gear with very similar specs and measurements can sound vastly different.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
@gyosa Looking at your signature, why do you have so many different brands of equipment when measurements say they all sound the same
Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156 -
If it was confirmation bias then how do you explain when someone buys a more expensive cable and doesn't like the sound, which does happen.
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@gyosa Looking at your signature, why do you have so many different brands of equipment when measurements say they all sound the same
Cuz I’m a packrat and can’t get rid of stuff …
Let’s not put words in my mouth … don’t think that’s what I said…
I said I’m not buying into the power cable thing….
BkPS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
PS Audio S300 , WiiM Ultra , Yamaha wxc-50 , Salk SuperCharged Songtowers , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 48” - BEDROOM
B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Eversolo DMP-A6 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL
Parasound A21, Eversolo DMP-A8 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Ascend Acoustics ELX Ribbon Towers , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN system
Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sony 65” TV - PATIO -
I said I’m not buying into the power cable thing…
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. That's your choice. I happen to see things on the other side of the spectrum when it comes to cables. Nothing wrong with that either. Life is full of choices and it's the same with this hobby.
Trust me when I say that your wallet will be much happier.
I would venture to say that the cables (just the cables) that hook everything up in my rig took up an estimated 40% of my budget for the rig itself. Definitely overkill by many folks' standards but I would not trade it or ever go back. I will actually keep improving here and there, as I can afford it. The changes are simply too wonderful (to me).
TomI don't know how measurements play into relaying how a speaker images and soundstage depth and how 3d an image is. In my experience though that is where most of the changes I hear come from. The way stereo can image is mind boggling. To experience full 360 degree imaging and 30 wide soundstages and 30 ft of depth is really addictive.
Spot on brother. Spot on. You experience the music in a whole new light, if you will.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
