Lets talk Sample rates.

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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
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    Hmm, so I've come to an epiphany.

    If cables (conductors) don't affect sound, then how on earth do capacitors affect sound (which I've personally heard the massive differences they do make)?

    They're both just conductors, yet ClarityCap PX, CSA, PUR all have a different sound to them. Perhaps some testing is in order. I wonder if some local audiophiles would have some gear I can use to measure sound signatures with. Would be a very cool experiment.
    My gear:
    • TCL 75QM7K TV
    • Onyko TX-NR656 AVR
    • RT3000p Fronts
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
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    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Measure ? Why not use the best measuring device made, your ears?

    Because ears aren't reliable due to the brain. The brain is a very cool meat computer but it can get pretty messed up. Was it Monster who made people think their cables were better simply by turning the volume up a few decibels?

    Either way, the ears alone are reliable, but the brain isn't, and it can be subtly subconsciously tricked too easily for me to consider my subjective testing good enough to be fact.
    My gear:
    • TCL 75QM7K TV
    • Onyko TX-NR656 AVR
    • RT3000p Fronts
    • CS1000p Center
    • RT35 Side Surrounds
    • RT35 Rear Surrounds
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 2,687
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    You’re contradicting yourself, aren’t you? How can you be sure you heard differences in the various caps, then?

    Brian

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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
    edited October 2023
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    You’re contradicting yourself, aren’t you? How can you be sure you heard differences in the various caps, then?

    Good point. I suppose the only real argument I could give is that with cables I'm testing frequency response, the capacitors actually gave entirely new detail and let me hear parts of the song I genuinely couldn't before (I did do a comparison side by side with the old board).

    I can't necessarily say I genuinely did though, it really could be placebo. I do know that the parts needed replacing anyways because they were like 35 years old and would be drifting out of tolerance anyways. So even if it were placebo I can still justify the new high quality components.
    My gear:
    • TCL 75QM7K TV
    • Onyko TX-NR656 AVR
    • RT3000p Fronts
    • CS1000p Center
    • RT35 Side Surrounds
    • RT35 Rear Surrounds
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 2,687
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    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Hmm, so I've come to an epiphany.

    If cables (conductors) don't affect sound, then how on earth do capacitors affect sound (which I've personally heard the massive differences they do make)?

    …
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Good point. I suppose the only real argument I could give is that with cables I'm testing frequency response, the capacitors actually gave entirely new detail and let me hear parts of the song I genuinely couldn't before (I did do a comparison side by side with the old board).

    I can't necessarily say I genuinely did though, it really could be placebo.

    …

    Now you’re talking in circles.

    Carry on …

    Brian

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,406
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    More like talking out his a$$.
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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Hmm, so I've come to an epiphany.

    If cables (conductors) don't affect sound, then how on earth do capacitors affect sound (which I've personally heard the massive differences they do make)?

    …
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Good point. I suppose the only real argument I could give is that with cables I'm testing frequency response, the capacitors actually gave entirely new detail and let me hear parts of the song I genuinely couldn't before (I did do a comparison side by side with the old board).

    I can't necessarily say I genuinely did though, it really could be placebo.

    …

    Now you’re talking in circles.

    Carry on …

    Yeah it's entirely contradictory, I've acknowledged that. I'm just saying that I'm open to the fact that it's placebo. I mean, hey, wouldn't it be funny if I was wrong?

    I hear a difference, yet it might be my brain playing tricks on me. Seems to make sense to me. My perception might be different than the objective truth. So what? I could have worded it better but you know what I meant.
    My gear:
    • TCL 75QM7K TV
    • Onyko TX-NR656 AVR
    • RT3000p Fronts
    • CS1000p Center
    • RT35 Side Surrounds
    • RT35 Rear Surrounds
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 2,687
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    No, I massively, entirely, genuinely don’t know what you meant.

    You either heard with your own two ears (and, yes, brain) differences you described with those adjectives/adverbs, or it was placebo.

    Which one?

    Brian

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  • ChrisD06
    ChrisD06 Posts: 929
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    bcwsrt wrote: »
    No, I massively, entirely, genuinely don’t know what you meant.

    You either heard with your own two ears (and, yes, brain) differences you described with those adjectives/adverbs, or it was placebo.

    Which one?

    Having a little trouble are we? I believe I heard with my ears, but it also could have been placebo.

    If you need an analogy Id be happy to provide one
    My gear:
    • TCL 75QM7K TV
    • Onyko TX-NR656 AVR
    • RT3000p Fronts
    • CS1000p Center
    • RT35 Side Surrounds
    • RT35 Rear Surrounds
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  • bcwsrt
    bcwsrt Posts: 2,687
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    No trouble here. I definitely got it. 👍

    Brian

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  • tophatjohnny
    tophatjohnny Posts: 4,189
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    I’ve seen some piss threads here but this one has gots to be the yellowist mine eyes have laid their balls upon! 😳
    "if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
    *****************************
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,559
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    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Hmm, so I've come to an epiphany.

    If cables (conductors) don't affect sound, then how on earth do capacitors affect sound (which I've personally heard the massive differences they do make)?

    …
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Good point. I suppose the only real argument I could give is that with cables I'm testing frequency response, the capacitors actually gave entirely new detail and let me hear parts of the song I genuinely couldn't before (I did do a comparison side by side with the old board).

    I can't necessarily say I genuinely did though, it really could be placebo.

    …

    Now you’re talking in circles.

    Carry on …

    Yeah it's entirely contradictory, I've acknowledged that. I'm just saying that I'm open to the fact that it's placebo. I mean, hey, wouldn't it be funny if I was wrong?

    I hear a difference, yet it might be my brain playing tricks on me. Seems to make sense to me. My perception might be different than the objective truth. So what? I could have worded it better but you know what I meant.

    Just buy a cheap system and tell yourself it sounds better than anything you've ever heard.
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  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 7,811
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    61zii2z95hiz.jpg
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,359
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    jkluq64vtcas.jpg

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 29,746
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    All gear actually sounds the same, it's just the sampling that makes the difference

    Ymmv
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,650
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    Yeah, but you can't hear the difference between 44.1kHz and AM radio.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • HzTweaker
    HzTweaker Posts: 1,135
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    "All gear actually sounds the same, it's just the sampling that makes the difference

    Ymmv"


    So on that note, I was looking for identical albums on HDtracks that I could get in different SRs. I got distracted when looking for music that I'm Familiar with and found this: https://www.hdtracks.com/#/album/5debab08f73cc8ae84d3332e . I'm a huge fan of Radiohead and lately cover tunes. It comes in two different SRs and bit depths.


    2ch rig: Speakers: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods Preamplifier: Parasound P5 DAC: Fiio K13 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)

    Standby: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,650
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    Interesting. I like a couple of those Radiohead tracks. A bit pleasantly-melancholy/haunting. Is that that singer's vocal style?

    When you buy music on HDTracks, if you buy higher resolution, do you also have access to lower resolution, or are those separate purchases?
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  • HzTweaker
    HzTweaker Posts: 1,135
    edited October 2023
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    msg wrote: »
    Interesting. I like a couple of those Radiohead tracks. A bit pleasantly-melancholy/haunting. Is that that singer's vocal style?

    When you buy music on HDTracks, if you buy higher resolution, do you also have access to lower resolution, or are those separate purchases?

    You know your question has got me thinking. Couldn't I Take an album in 192Khz and down sample it step by step? I'm thinking I could save some $$ by not having to buy the same album over and over, just make the devices do all the work?
    2ch rig: Speakers: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods Preamplifier: Parasound P5 DAC: Fiio K13 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)

    Standby: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands
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  • HzTweaker
    HzTweaker Posts: 1,135
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    My experience With downloaded hi-res is that it's only in the SR/BD that is downloaded in.
    2ch rig: Speakers: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods Preamplifier: Parasound P5 DAC: Fiio K13 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)

    Standby: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,650
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    HzTweaker wrote: »
    msg wrote: »
    Interesting. I like a couple of those Radiohead tracks. A bit pleasantly-melancholy/haunting. Is that that singer's vocal style?

    When you buy music on HDTracks, if you buy higher resolution, do you also have access to lower resolution, or are those separate purchases?

    You know your question has got me thinking. Couldn't I Take an album in 192Khz and down sample it step by step? I'm thinking I could save some $$ by not having to buy the same album over and over, just make the devices do all the work?

    Yeah, you can. I wonder what they use to create lower resolution versions, and whether it matters. I'm sure somewhere there's an argument about this on both sides.

    I'm not familiar enough with this process. Are there music processing engines that are better than others?

    Would you be able to tell the difference if you just downsampled in Audacity or CoolEditPro? (is that even around anymore?)

    I suppose you could convert a track and then compare the waveform to a downloaded one for a visual sense as well as what you hear? Not sure any of those tools would be definitive.

    Reminds me of a discussion about cables some time ago. I came across a vendor or manufacturer a while back who proposed using a "difference" wave or file or something. I forget what it was called, but it involved taking a recording of playback output from a particular set of parameters, and overlaying that recording on another one, capturing the diffence data to a new track. In theory, this would give you an audio recording of what is different between a control and test track.

    I did this, and it actually, works, however there's a glaring question of timing, and how sensitive the ear is to offset.

    See, the tracks have to be overlaid at the exact same point of start. Audacity, I think, was only accurate to hundredths or thousandths of a second, so while there was difference data between recordings from two tracks, I couldn't be sure whether it was "missing" information, or simply delay offset data, or maybe both.

    It was interesting, though. I'll try to find that thread.

    (*written on stupid mobile. any typos are my fault, but I don't effing care anymore)
    I disabled signatures.
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,559
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    According to a study conducted by Aalto University and genelac, the human ear can detect timing anomalies to a half a millisecond.
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  • jbreezy5
    jbreezy5 Posts: 1,141
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    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    bcwsrt wrote: »
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Hmm, so I've come to an epiphany.

    If cables (conductors) don't affect sound, then how on earth do capacitors affect sound (which I've personally heard the massive differences they do make)?

    …
    ChrisD06 wrote: »
    Good point. I suppose the only real argument I could give is that with cables I'm testing frequency response, the capacitors actually gave entirely new detail and let me hear parts of the song I genuinely couldn't before (I did do a comparison side by side with the old board).

    I can't necessarily say I genuinely did though, it really could be placebo.

    …

    Now you’re talking in circles.

    Carry on …

    Yeah it's entirely contradictory, I've acknowledged that. I'm just saying that I'm open to the fact that it's placebo. I mean, hey, wouldn't it be funny if I was wrong?

    I hear a difference, yet it might be my brain playing tricks on me. Seems to make sense to me. My perception might be different than the objective truth. So what? I could have worded it better but you know what I meant.

    Have you heard of the law of non-contradiction?

    Or… that “a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways?” (James 1:7,8)

    At this point, you’re on your own kid.
    CD Players: Sony CDP-211; Sony DVP-S9000ES; Sony UDP-X800M2 (x2); Cambridge Audio CXC

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,650
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    Good info. I suspected as much - not necessarily those specifics, exactly, but that a fine degree of offset would be detectable.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 7,811
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    Can we get back to goats?
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,359
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    invalid wrote: »
    According to a study conducted by Aalto University and genelac, the human ear can detect timing anomalies to a half a millisecond.

    This should be why very minute speaker movement (assuming proper setup) can be so drastic in the changes.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 10,650
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    z8yhtc6xbpdg.gif
    I disabled signatures.
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,559
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    invalid wrote: »
    According to a study conducted by Aalto University and genelac, the human ear can detect timing anomalies to a half a millisecond.

    This should be why very minute speaker movement (assuming proper setup) can be so drastic in the changes.

    Tom

    That is true, I never thought of that.
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  • HzTweaker
    HzTweaker Posts: 1,135
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    treitz3 wrote: »
    invalid wrote: »
    According to a study conducted by Aalto University and genelac, the human ear can detect timing anomalies to a half a millisecond.

    This should be why very minute speaker movement (assuming proper setup) can be so drastic in the changes.

    Tom

    Not to mention the design of time alignment in some speakers.
    2ch rig: Speakers: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods Preamplifier: Parasound P5 DAC: Fiio K13 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)

    Standby: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands
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