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Expensive !!$$$$$$

marvda1marvda1 Posts: 4,223
edited July 2019 in Electronics
Now I see why some of this stuff costs so much.
Amplifiers: MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800,Kinki Studio EX-M1
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Transport/Dac: L.K.S MH-DA004, Cayin Venus cd-100i, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkI,
Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2, Analysis Plus Black Mesh Oval 9,
Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme
Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2, Gabriel Gold Reckoning
Power Cables by: Cullen Cables, 6sons Audio, Swiss Cables
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Comments

  • verbverb Posts: 10,313
    Love the machining! Those chassis are built like tanks! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cables, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
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  • steveinazsteveinaz Posts: 19,503
    The Swiss are amazing craftsmen. Been there, twice.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amplifier: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: PSB Imagine T2 - Cables: Kimber Hero XLR; Kimber 8VS Bi-Wire; DH Labs D-75 dig coaxial
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  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 9,258
    Check out the CH Precision monoblocks in this room at Axpona with the realtime wattage display screens:

    v5kgwhzcian5.jpg

    ciwo56hyftoz.jpg
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • WillowWillow Posts: 10,381
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there
    TV room- B&W 703, SVS PB10 NSD, Marantz NR1607, Parasound 1500a, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Yellow) with Acrylic platter, Pro-Ject phono pre, MIT AVT 2 speaker cables, MIT AVT 1 and AVT 2 ICs, XLO Jumpers, Signal Dig Coax, Signal Cable Magic Power Cables x3, Samsung QN75Q7DR Qled 75" tv, Harmony 1100, Sony BDP-S6200, Marantz DV-4200 (as Transport), Cambridge Audio DAC Magic100, Monster 3600MKII, Family room Samsung 55JS7000 Android Mi Box3 and Apple TV, Polk Magnifi Max. - Pool /Gazebo Yamaha RX-A1010, Polk Patio 25x4, Rotel RDV 1045 (as CDP) MIT AVT3 ICs - Work - Spotify Premium or Neutron App to my FiiO Kunlun into my Grado SR125e

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  • VR3VR3 Posts: 24,100
    Way to many gizzy wizzies in that thing
    - Not Tom

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2019
    R & D costs a lot these days. As an example Nelson Pass will sit a tweak a design for months even a year by listening, testing, tweaking, listening, more listening and tweaking....that time has got to be worth something especially if it's a higher end piece that might only sell 1000 units or less over it's life span.

    Superb materials have become very expensive as well, cases, heat sinks, precision design and machining of products...…..all have a hefty price compared to run of the mill mass produced stuff.

    Perhaps not on the level of a handcrafted Ferrari, but somewhere in the middle.....

    H9

    P.S. As high end gear goes, his is pretty reasonably priced comparatively.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    edited July 2019
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    Cable prices
    Rack prices - an HRS MX is $20,000?
    What about high end amplifiers. Is there really a reason a D Agostino Relentless is $300,000?

    It’s well known that audio manufacturers cater their pricing to a perceived value from a certain crowd. They know pricing a product at $100,000 looks better to say their big customers in China for example.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • marvda1marvda1 Posts: 4,223
    besides r&d look at all the machinery and buildings they had to purchase and upfront cash to purchase inventory in bulk to get prices down. employee wages, utilities, duty fees, distributor markups. and least not forget economy of scale, they are not selling sony quantities.
    Amplifiers: MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800,Kinki Studio EX-M1
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Transport/Dac: L.K.S MH-DA004, Cayin Venus cd-100i, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkI,
    Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2, Analysis Plus Black Mesh Oval 9,
    Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2, Gabriel Gold Reckoning
    Power Cables by: Cullen Cables, 6sons Audio, Swiss Cables
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  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,613
    Why do you think it's called "The rabbit hole"

    Just like any other hobby is not cheap...ie golf, and cars

    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    Definitely a rabbit hole
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    Markup is there for high end speakers

    For example a Sonus Faber AIDA. 7 drivers I believe? Bigger cabinet but something that isn’t out of the realm for their craftsmen who are already accustomed to building tons of normal and slightly larger size enclosures, cost? $165,000.

    And how does a single level rack command a price of $2000?

    It’s all craziness

    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • PSOVLSKPSOVLSK Posts: 4,367
    edited July 2019
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,911
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)
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  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,463
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.
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  • audioluvraudioluvr Posts: 2,965
    kharp1 wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.

    Agreed?
    Cambridge Audio 851N Streamer/DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
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  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 23,099
    I can agree with Skip on this... the cost to develop new product is crazy.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Statement V2 cartridge and Origin Conqueror Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.” .

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    I will disagree with your agree to agree to disagree.

    :)
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • decaldecal Posts: 3,218
    So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
    There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
    There's only you and me and we just disagree
    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,911
    kharp1 wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.

    Well put.
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 14,112
    The market for this gear is so small that there is no way to reduce the price and make a profit. I have visited Magico’s factory, and it is clean and functional, not luxurious. The employees seemed content, but I doubt they make more than other manufacturing employees in the area. Also, Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.
    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • JayCeeJayCee Posts: 984
    edited July 2019
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.

    I've traveled extensively in Switzerland. Also, been all over the world and have to say Switzerland is uber expensive in comparison to even the neighboring countries.

    With respect to CH Precision, this has to significantly affect their production costs. Definitely a high end audio company but would be interesting to know what they'd be priced at if not based in Switzerland.

    USD to CHF is about even; $1.02 to 1.00 CHF ....

    "Average salary in Switzerland: The average salary in Switzerland is among the highest in the world, but so too is the cost of living..."
    https://www.expatica.com/ch/employment/employment-law/swiss-minimum-wage-and-average-salary-in-switzerland-995110/

    Median annual Swiss salary is 114,084 CHF
    http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=210&loctype=1

    In comparison, the US median annual income is $46,644 (includes seasonal adjustments).
    https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/average-income-in-us-14852178

    Move production to China????? :smiley: High end audio for the masses at an affordable cost. LOL.
    ➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streamer: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC & Uptone EtherREGEN⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
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  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,978
    A greed
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  • daddyjtdaddyjt Posts: 1,494
    BlueFox wrote: »
    ...Also, Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area...

    Wow - unless they’ve been there for decades, I can’t imagine why they would locate there. From a purely business standpoint, it would seem that production there would add significantly to both the cost of production, and the end price.
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  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 9,258
    As far as I know, Magico has always been located in Hayward, CA.
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    Reminds me of a lot of audiophile stuff

    I’m not saying all, there’s a lot out there that I’m sure is worth the money charges (RD, California facility, etc) but there’s a ton of ehh products out there.

    b4z9d1h15g8w.png
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,828
    Just to be clear, I'm not looking to argue with anybody.

    As with any hobby, there's always the outlier or point at which the returns have diminished significantly.

    I've just been blessed enough to be able to witness a lot of the higher end of audio, and I can say, a lot of the pricing seems like a lot of fluff... like someone just comes up with some number to make it seem like the product is worth more or sounds better than it really should/is/does.

    Some things that come to mind:
    $80,000 open baffle speakers... how is it that without a cabinet, the speaker can cost more than a Tesla?
    $300/3 pieces Shunyata Dark Field II cable elevators? Made of plastic and a rubber band.... really?
    My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?
    Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.

    Are there products out there with sensible pricing? Of course.
    And yes, the ratio is probably similar to those in midfi for a lot of hifi stuff. I bet a $10,000 amp has parts that cost a total of $1000. So a midfi $4000 amp probably has $400 of parts. I get that.

    But it still does not excuse the racket pricing of many hifi products.

    Just my opinion.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> Audio Research Reference 40th Anniversary -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ARC Ref 40th Anniversary
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
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  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,978
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 26,911
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    ... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.

    B)
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