Expensive !!$$$$$$

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Comments

  • daddyjtdaddyjt Posts: 1,164
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Flea market
    Used market

    Fixed it

    Too much stuff to keep track of.

    Currently enjoying: Legacy Focus 20/20, McCormack DNA 225, Bill D C1, Oppo 105
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 4,795
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    ... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.

    B)

    What about REBEL roadsides?

    do654c20y2u3.jpg
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 8,638
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    ... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.

    B)

    I've experienced that option just a few weeks ago. An audio rack and AR4x's. Just two houses apart and around the corner from me. Now to find a roadside receiver. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,463
    edited July 2019
    It's still about synergy. If you hear an amp that cost $100,000 on speakers that cost $100,000 and aren't impressed, then, maybe they weren't meant for each other.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,780
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    You forgot the third Joe....


    Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,454
    tonyb wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    You forgot the third Joe....


    Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.

    Yeah, yeah -- but without the coffee, you'd be chokin' folks to death without much enthusiasm.

    B)
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,102
    tonyb wrote: »
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    You forgot the third Joe....


    Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.

    Preach it brother Tony
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,630
    Joey_V wrote: »
    My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?

    Raw silver is not expensive. Purifying the silver, then milling/drawing/polishing the wire a certain way ads cost. Then there is the cost of low noise wire insulation. Then there is R&D. Then there is a chain of people between the manufacturer and the consumer who have to make a living, plus the economies of small market size. It adds up.

    We could ask the same question of a 400 series Lexus...after all, its just some steel, copper wiring, wood trim, plastic, leather, and glass. Do these materials really cost so much?
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.

    If Wilson is just making ordinary cabinets with modified off the shelf cabinets, then yes they are way overpriced. However, if this were the case, it would be easy to make significantly lower cost duplicates of Wilson speakers. I have yet to see that done, or even attempted.

    The same goes for your AudioQuest WEL silver cables. If all AQ is doing is taking silver wire and putting them in fancy jackets with jewelry quality terminations, it should be a simple matter for a DIY'er, or another wire manufacturer, to duplicate their look and performance for significantly less money. Asian counterfeiters of AQ cables can't even accurately duplicate the look of AQ's product packaging, let alone the cables themselves.


    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,135
    Joey_V wrote: »
    My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?

    Raw silver is not expensive. Purifying the silver, then milling/drawing/polishing the wire a certain way ads cost. Then there is the cost of low noise wire insulation. Then there is R&D. Then there is a chain of people between the manufacturer and the consumer who have to make a living, plus the economies of small market size. It adds up.

    We could ask the same question of a 400 series Lexus...after all, its just some steel, copper wiring, wood trim, plastic, leather, and glass. Do these materials really cost so much?
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.

    If Wilson is just making ordinary cabinets with modified off the shelf cabinets, then yes they are way overpriced. However, if this were the case, it would be easy to make significantly lower cost duplicates of Wilson speakers. I have yet to see that done, or even attempted.

    The same goes for your AudioQuest WEL silver cables. If all AQ is doing is taking silver wire and putting them in fancy jackets with jewelry quality terminations, it should be a simple matter for a DIY'er, or another wire manufacturer, to duplicate their look and performance for significantly less money. Asian counterfeiters of AQ cables can't even accurately duplicate the look of AQ's product packaging, let alone the cables themselves.


    Yet the wel is basically an oak in all silver conductors. The jacket and insulation are the same.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> ??? -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2


    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ???
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,630
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Yet the wel is basically an oak in all silver conductors. The jacket and insulation are the same.

    I consulted AQ's 2016 catalog. The specs for the following four speaker cable models show the only differences as conductor material and jacket color. There are wide variations in prices for an 8 foot pair:

    Oak $3,040, all copper conductors.
    Redwood, $8,800, 10 copper conductors and 6 silver conductors
    Wild Wood, $18,400, 4 copper conductors and 12 copper conductors
    WEL Signature, $31,200, all silver conductors.

    I sent an email to AQ asking the reasons for the price differences.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,463
    I'm pretty sure there were some serious differences in insulator material. That was one of the things that separated the WEL's in that they had to have a different geometry due to the sizing and type of sandwiching of insulator material. Not sure if there was a difference in the NDR they use.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,780
    If you want the best, in anything, you have to pay for it. Know why the Wels cost what they do ? Because people like you will pay the price.

    Same with 100k speakers, 30k preamps and amps, cars, appliances, clothes, etc. Sometimes it's worth the extra coin, sometimes not. I'd opine that in the world of audio, the super high end isn't going to give you that much more in sound quality than their prices would dictate they should.

    That's not just a personal observation either, we've all been to shows and heard a 50k system you wouldn't give 2 nickels for sound wise.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,630
    Here is the response from AudioQuest:


    "The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,535
    edited July 2019
    Well of course they are going to tow the line and say the new cables are VASTLY superior to the older design. No company is going to say well these are great BUT no difference than the older cables but we'd like you to pay for our R+D for trying to better ourselves.

    One thing I wish audioquest would bring back is their cable archive page to be able to tell exactly what the older cables they've had in the past are made of to be able to compare newer cable to their older lines. Sometime in the last two years they completely remove any and all references to these older lines of cables. That page went back 25 yrs. Even their recent cables like Diamondback and King Cobra cables are gone for reference.

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,102
    I agree completely Ivan, I like AQ stuff, but there is definitely some fluff in their products for the name - I have only once paid retail for their stuff, that was the type 4 cables i got from BB, if you can find good deals, there stuff is worth it, but not at their retail prices
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,454
    edited July 2019
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Well of course they are going to tow the line and say the new cables are VASTLY superior to the older design. No company is going to say well these are great BUT no difference than the older cables but we'd like you to pay for our R+D for trying to better ourselves.

    One thing I wish audioquest would bring back is their cable archive page to be able to tell exactly what the older cables they've had in the past are made of to be able to compare newer cable to their older lines. Sometime in the last two years they completely remove any and all references to these older lines of cables. That page went back 25 yrs. Even their recent cables like Diamondback and King Cobra cables are gone for reference.
    If you've got a link*, there's always the Wayback Machine :)

    https://archive.org/web/

    EDIT: Question: @pitdogg2 was the cable archive page you mention an earlier version of this?
    https://www.aqarchive.com/

    _______________
    * If you don't, Googling the topic might well turn, e.g., a forum post that contains one or more of the links for the cable archive of which you speak! :)

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,454
    edited July 2019
    mmm... looks like maybe they did a pretty good job of bleaching their past pages(?)

    5zlj90soz2ir.png

    a8svdo5qsw1z.png


  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,535
    edited July 2019
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    mmm... looks like maybe they did a pretty good job of bleaching their past pages(?)

    5zlj90soz2ir.png

    a8svdo5qsw1z.png


    See I told you so :D:D:D

    mhardy6647 wrote: »

    EDIT: Question: @pitdogg2 was the cable archive page you mention an earlier version of this?
    https://www.aqarchive.com/

    _______________
    * If you don't, Googling the topic might well turn, e.g., a forum post that contains one or more of the links for the cable archive of which you speak! :)

    You da MAN Doc !! yes that is it. it is a great reference.. well IMHO yours may differ

    I'm not near smart enough to find that which you dug up.
    ;)
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,535
    If you go back you'll see for an example Python became Viper then Viper became King Cobra and now it is Yukon in the newest series.The only thing that changed is the name and colors of braiding used. Unlike the previous series the step below that uses (PSC) like the Diamondback was to the King Cobra( PSC+) which used air tubes as well the Mackenzie now uses Hard Cell Foam insulation which was two steps down in previous cables. Now Mackenzie still used triple balanced geometry where two steps down in previous lines was only double balanced



    I do believe Audioquest intentionally does this to combat counterfeiters. Of course price does increase along the way either because of material cost or other unknown reasons.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,454
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    If you go back you'll see for an example Python became Viper then Viper became King Cobra and now it is Yukon in the newest series.The only thing that changed is the name and colors of braiding used.

    Those... those... churlish rascals! :)
    Unlike the previous series the step below that uses (PSC) like the Diamondback was to the King Cobra( PSC+) which used air tubes as well the Mackenzie now uses Hard Cell Foam insulation which was two steps down in previous cables. Now Mackenzie still used triple balanced geometry where two steps down in previous lines was only double balanced



    I do believe Audioquest intentionally does this to combat counterfeiters. Of course price does increase along the way either because of material cost or other unknown reasons.

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,102
    Ivan, do you own (and like) Audioquest stuff?
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 4,102
    Here we go again.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61 - AQ Niagara 5000 - SVS SB16u
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,535
    edited July 2019
    joecoulson wrote: »
    Ivan, do you own (and like) Audioquest stuff?

    Yes it is all King Cobra except in the case of my 3 meter amp to pre IC's Black Mamba. I've used many of their IC's. I like both the diamondback and King Cobra's. I've also used the evergreen and Topaz series.

    You might be onto something Skip. That was just my logical guess is all.
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 3,463
    Here is the response from AudioQuest:


    "The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."

    That's interesting...I read this article a few days ago and was referencing it when I made my post. Curious which one is true, or, how much of each is true:

    https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/component/content/article?id=218:audioquest-wel-signature-interconnects
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 15,535
    kharp1 wrote: »
    Here is the response from AudioQuest:


    "The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."

    That's interesting...I read this article a few days ago and was referencing it when I made my post. Curious which one is true, or, how much of each is true:

    https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/component/content/article?id=218:audioquest-wel-signature-interconnects

    Nice read Kerry :)
  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 7,135
    I believe the new AQ line has zero characteristic impedance but they want you to basically buy 2 full looms for each speaker’s mid/hi and bass.

    No thank you.

    Is it better? Maybe. But I can think of many more things I would rather benefit from for the money.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs TSDx/Bluesound Node 2 -> Emm Labs DAC2x -> ??? -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers + JL Audio F113v2 x2
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Oppo 105D -> Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2


    Main speakers system evolution over the years:
    Klipsch Promedia 4.1 -> Axiom M22ti -> Sonus Faber Concertino -> Sonus Faber Concerto -> Polk LSi7 -> Polk LSi9 -> Martin Logan Mosaic -> AV123 Onix Ref 1 -> Martin Logan Vantage -> AV123 Strata Mini -> Martin Logan Summit -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor -> BW 802D2 -> Sonus Faber Stradivari -> Rockport Avior -> BW 802D3 -> BW 800D3 -> ???

    Old Gear:
    Speakers:
    BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source:
    Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification:
    Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased) -> ARC 5se -> ???
    Amplification:
    HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer:
    Infinity Entra2 -> SVS 25-31PCi -> SVS 25-31PC+ -> Dual JL Audio F113v2
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 24,454
    zero characteristic impedance.

    all righty then.

  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,630
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I believe the new AQ line has zero characteristic impedance but they want you to basically buy 2 full looms for each speaker’s mid/hi and bass.

    No thank you.

    It costs a lot to live well in southern California.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
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