Expensive !!$$$$$$
Comments
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"Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow
“Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn -
mhardy6647 wrote: »joecoulson wrote: »I’m grateful for two things:
Free market
Used market
... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.
What about REBEL roadsides?
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mhardy6647 wrote: »joecoulson wrote: »I’m grateful for two things:
Free market
Used market
... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.
I've experienced that option just a few weeks ago. An audio rack and AR4x's. Just two houses apart and around the corner from me. Now to find a roadside receiver.
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
It's still about synergy. If you hear an amp that cost $100,000 on speakers that cost $100,000 and aren't impressed, then, maybe they weren't meant for each other.
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joecoulson wrote: »I’m grateful for two things:
Free market
Used market
You forgot the third Joe....
Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
joecoulson wrote: »I’m grateful for two things:
Free market
Used market
You forgot the third Joe....
Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.
Yeah, yeah -- but without the coffee, you'd be chokin' folks to death without much enthusiasm.
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joecoulson wrote: »I’m grateful for two things:
Free market
Used market
You forgot the third Joe....
Coffee....always be thankful for coffee because without it guys like me would be in jail for choking people to death.
Preach it brother Tony -
My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?
Raw silver is not expensive. Purifying the silver, then milling/drawing/polishing the wire a certain way ads cost. Then there is the cost of low noise wire insulation. Then there is R&D. Then there is a chain of people between the manufacturer and the consumer who have to make a living, plus the economies of small market size. It adds up.
We could ask the same question of a 400 series Lexus...after all, its just some steel, copper wiring, wood trim, plastic, leather, and glass. Do these materials really cost so much?Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.
If Wilson is just making ordinary cabinets with modified off the shelf cabinets, then yes they are way overpriced. However, if this were the case, it would be easy to make significantly lower cost duplicates of Wilson speakers. I have yet to see that done, or even attempted.
The same goes for your AudioQuest WEL silver cables. If all AQ is doing is taking silver wire and putting them in fancy jackets with jewelry quality terminations, it should be a simple matter for a DIY'er, or another wire manufacturer, to duplicate their look and performance for significantly less money. Asian counterfeiters of AQ cables can't even accurately duplicate the look of AQ's product packaging, let alone the cables themselves.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?
Raw silver is not expensive. Purifying the silver, then milling/drawing/polishing the wire a certain way ads cost. Then there is the cost of low noise wire insulation. Then there is R&D. Then there is a chain of people between the manufacturer and the consumer who have to make a living, plus the economies of small market size. It adds up.
We could ask the same question of a 400 series Lexus...after all, its just some steel, copper wiring, wood trim, plastic, leather, and glass. Do these materials really cost so much?Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.
If Wilson is just making ordinary cabinets with modified off the shelf cabinets, then yes they are way overpriced. However, if this were the case, it would be easy to make significantly lower cost duplicates of Wilson speakers. I have yet to see that done, or even attempted.
The same goes for your AudioQuest WEL silver cables. If all AQ is doing is taking silver wire and putting them in fancy jackets with jewelry quality terminations, it should be a simple matter for a DIY'er, or another wire manufacturer, to duplicate their look and performance for significantly less money. Asian counterfeiters of AQ cables can't even accurately duplicate the look of AQ's product packaging, let alone the cables themselves.
Yet the wel is basically an oak in all silver conductors. The jacket and insulation are the same.Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R -
Yet the wel is basically an oak in all silver conductors. The jacket and insulation are the same.
I consulted AQ's 2016 catalog. The specs for the following four speaker cable models show the only differences as conductor material and jacket color. There are wide variations in prices for an 8 foot pair:
Oak $3,040, all copper conductors.
Redwood, $8,800, 10 copper conductors and 6 silver conductors
Wild Wood, $18,400, 4 copper conductors and 12 copper conductors
WEL Signature, $31,200, all silver conductors.
I sent an email to AQ asking the reasons for the price differences.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I'm pretty sure there were some serious differences in insulator material. That was one of the things that separated the WEL's in that they had to have a different geometry due to the sizing and type of sandwiching of insulator material. Not sure if there was a difference in the NDR they use.
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If you want the best, in anything, you have to pay for it. Know why the Wels cost what they do ? Because people like you will pay the price.
Same with 100k speakers, 30k preamps and amps, cars, appliances, clothes, etc. Sometimes it's worth the extra coin, sometimes not. I'd opine that in the world of audio, the super high end isn't going to give you that much more in sound quality than their prices would dictate they should.
That's not just a personal observation either, we've all been to shows and heard a 50k system you wouldn't give 2 nickels for sound wise.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Here is the response from AudioQuest:
"The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Well of course they are going to tow the line and say the new cables are VASTLY superior to the older design. No company is going to say well these are great BUT no difference than the older cables but we'd like you to pay for our R+D for trying to better ourselves.
One thing I wish audioquest would bring back is their cable archive page to be able to tell exactly what the older cables they've had in the past are made of to be able to compare newer cable to their older lines. Sometime in the last two years they completely remove any and all references to these older lines of cables. That page went back 25 yrs. Even their recent cables like Diamondback and King Cobra cables are gone for reference.
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I agree completely Ivan, I like AQ stuff, but there is definitely some fluff in their products for the name - I have only once paid retail for their stuff, that was the type 4 cables i got from BB, if you can find good deals, there stuff is worth it, but not at their retail prices
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If you've got a link*, there's always the Wayback MachineWell of course they are going to tow the line and say the new cables are VASTLY superior to the older design. No company is going to say well these are great BUT no difference than the older cables but we'd like you to pay for our R+D for trying to better ourselves.
One thing I wish audioquest would bring back is their cable archive page to be able to tell exactly what the older cables they've had in the past are made of to be able to compare newer cable to their older lines. Sometime in the last two years they completely remove any and all references to these older lines of cables. That page went back 25 yrs. Even their recent cables like Diamondback and King Cobra cables are gone for reference.
https://archive.org/web/
EDIT: Question: @pitdogg2 was the cable archive page you mention an earlier version of this?
https://www.aqarchive.com/
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* If you don't, Googling the topic might well turn, e.g., a forum post that contains one or more of the links for the cable archive of which you speak!
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mmm... looks like maybe they did a pretty good job of bleaching their past pages(?)
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mhardy6647 wrote: »mmm... looks like maybe they did a pretty good job of bleaching their past pages(?)
See I told you so
mhardy6647 wrote: »
EDIT: Question: @pitdogg2 was the cable archive page you mention an earlier version of this?
https://www.aqarchive.com/
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* If you don't, Googling the topic might well turn, e.g., a forum post that contains one or more of the links for the cable archive of which you speak!
You da MAN Doc !! yes that is it. it is a great reference.. well IMHO yours may differ
I'm not near smart enough to find that which you dug up.
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If you go back you'll see for an example Python became Viper then Viper became King Cobra and now it is Yukon in the newest series.The only thing that changed is the name and colors of braiding used. Unlike the previous series the step below that uses (PSC) like the Diamondback was to the King Cobra( PSC+) which used air tubes as well the Mackenzie now uses Hard Cell Foam insulation which was two steps down in previous cables. Now Mackenzie still used triple balanced geometry where two steps down in previous lines was only double balanced
I do believe Audioquest intentionally does this to combat counterfeiters. Of course price does increase along the way either because of material cost or other unknown reasons. -
If you go back you'll see for an example Python became Viper then Viper became King Cobra and now it is Yukon in the newest series.The only thing that changed is the name and colors of braiding used.
Those... those... churlish rascals!Unlike the previous series the step below that uses (PSC) like the Diamondback was to the King Cobra( PSC+) which used air tubes as well the Mackenzie now uses Hard Cell Foam insulation which was two steps down in previous cables. Now Mackenzie still used triple balanced geometry where two steps down in previous lines was only double balanced
I do believe Audioquest intentionally does this to combat counterfeiters. Of course price does increase along the way either because of material cost or other unknown reasons.
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Ivan, do you own (and like) Audioquest stuff?
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Here we go again.
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joecoulson wrote: »Ivan, do you own (and like) Audioquest stuff?
Yes it is all King Cobra except in the case of my 3 meter amp to pre IC's Black Mamba. I've used many of their IC's. I like both the diamondback and King Cobra's. I've also used the evergreen and Topaz series.
You might be onto something Skip. That was just my logical guess is all. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Here is the response from AudioQuest:
"The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."
That's interesting...I read this article a few days ago and was referencing it when I made my post. Curious which one is true, or, how much of each is true:
https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/component/content/article?id=218:audioquest-wel-signature-interconnects
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DarqueKnight wrote: »Here is the response from AudioQuest:
"The difference was conductor quality. It's unfortunate that, as good as good quality silver is, it's expensive. But it's so obviously better than even very high quality copper. However, the new cables are vastly superior to the old models, even comparing new cables at a much lower price to one in the previous line. This is thanks to their design. While conductor quality is obviously a very important element of cable design, it's only part of the story, as the new ZERO cables prove."
That's interesting...I read this article a few days ago and was referencing it when I made my post. Curious which one is true, or, how much of each is true:
https://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/component/content/article?id=218:audioquest-wel-signature-interconnects
Nice read Kerry -
I believe the new AQ line has zero characteristic impedance but they want you to basically buy 2 full looms for each speaker’s mid/hi and bass.
No thank you.
Is it better? Maybe. But I can think of many more things I would rather benefit from for the money.Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R -
zero characteristic impedance.
all righty then.
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I believe the new AQ line has zero characteristic impedance but they want you to basically buy 2 full looms for each speaker’s mid/hi and bass.
No thank you.
It costs a lot to live well in southern California.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
