Expensive !!$$$$$$

marvda1
marvda1 Posts: 4,903
edited July 2019 in Electronics
Now I see why some of this stuff costs so much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsOv-NJgphk
Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
Puritan PSM156
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  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Love the machining! Those chassis are built like tanks! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    The Swiss are amazing craftsmen. Been there, twice.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,949
    Check out the CH Precision monoblocks in this room at Axpona with the realtime wattage display screens:

    v5kgwhzcian5.jpg

    ciwo56hyftoz.jpg
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,040
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,737
    Way to many gizzy wizzies in that thing
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,194
    edited July 2019
    R & D costs a lot these days. As an example Nelson Pass will sit a tweak a design for months even a year by listening, testing, tweaking, listening, more listening and tweaking....that time has got to be worth something especially if it's a higher end piece that might only sell 1000 units or less over it's life span.

    Superb materials have become very expensive as well, cases, heat sinks, precision design and machining of products...…..all have a hefty price compared to run of the mill mass produced stuff.

    Perhaps not on the level of a handcrafted Ferrari, but somewhere in the middle.....

    H9

    P.S. As high end gear goes, his is pretty reasonably priced comparatively.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    edited July 2019
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    Cable prices
    Rack prices - an HRS MX is $20,000?
    What about high end amplifiers. Is there really a reason a D Agostino Relentless is $300,000?

    It’s well known that audio manufacturers cater their pricing to a perceived value from a certain crowd. They know pricing a product at $100,000 looks better to say their big customers in China for example.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,903
    besides r&d look at all the machinery and buildings they had to purchase and upfront cash to purchase inventory in bulk to get prices down. employee wages, utilities, duty fees, distributor markups. and least not forget economy of scale, they are not selling sony quantities.
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,300
    Why do you think it's called "The rabbit hole"

    Just like any other hobby is not cheap...ie golf, and cars

    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    Definitely a rabbit hole
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    Markup is there for high end speakers

    For example a Sonus Faber AIDA. 7 drivers I believe? Bigger cabinet but something that isn’t out of the realm for their craftsmen who are already accustomed to building tons of normal and slightly larger size enclosures, cost? $165,000.

    And how does a single level rack command a price of $2000?

    It’s all craziness

    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • PSOVLSK
    PSOVLSK Posts: 5,208
    edited July 2019
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.
    Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,895
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.
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  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,601
    kharp1 wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.

    Agreed?
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
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    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    I can agree with Skip on this... the cost to develop new product is crazy.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    I will disagree with your agree to agree to disagree.

    :)
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • decal
    decal Posts: 3,205
    So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
    There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
    There's only you and me and we just disagree
    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,895
    kharp1 wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PSOVLSK wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Willow wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I still don’t see why they cost so much
    Much of it is mark up
    And a lot of it is priced to keep a certain “air” about them.

    Pretty much goes for almost everything out there

    To a point, but I believe audiophile products in particular are priced to meet expectation rather than the materials or engineering itself.

    I disagree.

    I agree with your disagree.

    hard to argue with that B)

    I agree with your hard to argue with his agreeing with his disagree of the original disagree.

    Well put.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    The market for this gear is so small that there is no way to reduce the price and make a profit. I have visited Magico’s factory, and it is clean and functional, not luxurious. The employees seemed content, but I doubt they make more than other manufacturing employees in the area. Also, Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
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    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • JayCee
    JayCee Posts: 1,500
    edited July 2019
    BlueFox wrote: »
    Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.

    I've traveled extensively in Switzerland. Also, been all over the world and have to say Switzerland is uber expensive in comparison to even the neighboring countries.

    With respect to CH Precision, this has to significantly affect their production costs. Definitely a high end audio company but would be interesting to know what they'd be priced at if not based in Switzerland.

    USD to CHF is about even; $1.02 to 1.00 CHF ....

    "Average salary in Switzerland: The average salary in Switzerland is among the highest in the world, but so too is the cost of living..."
    https://www.expatica.com/ch/employment/employment-law/swiss-minimum-wage-and-average-salary-in-switzerland-995110/

    Median annual Swiss salary is 114,084 CHF
    http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=210&loctype=1

    In comparison, the US median annual income is $46,644 (includes seasonal adjustments).
    https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/average-income-in-us-14852178

    Move production to China????? :smiley: High end audio for the masses at an affordable cost. LOL.
    ➀Speakers: Polk1.2tl's (Uber Mods) ➁Pre/Amp/DAC: PS Audio BHK Signature & 250, DirectStream ➂Cables/IC's: MIT S1Bi-Wire/S1 Balanced +Avel Lindberg 1000VA "Dreadnought" ➃Power Conditioner: PS Audio P15 Power Plant ➄Power Cords: Core Power Technologies Gold, DH Labs Power Plus DIY w/Neotech NC-P301 & P311ends ➅Streaming: Roon ROCK on wifi'd NUC, TP-Link WAP, & Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark, Emperor Double Crown Clock, Black Modernize LPS, PS Audio AirLens⟿Ω☯☥☮⟿🔊♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬♩♪♫♬
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  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    A greed
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  • daddyjt
    daddyjt Posts: 2,547
    BlueFox wrote: »
    ...Also, Magico is in the San Francisco Bay Area...

    Wow - unless they’ve been there for decades, I can’t imagine why they would locate there. From a purely business standpoint, it would seem that production there would add significantly to both the cost of production, and the end price.
    "Conservative Libertarians love the country, progressive leftists love the government." - Andrew Wilkow


    “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,949
    As far as I know, Magico has always been located in Hayward, CA.
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    Reminds me of a lot of audiophile stuff

    I’m not saying all, there’s a lot out there that I’m sure is worth the money charges (RD, California facility, etc) but there’s a ton of ehh products out there.

    b4z9d1h15g8w.png
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,566
    Just to be clear, I'm not looking to argue with anybody.

    As with any hobby, there's always the outlier or point at which the returns have diminished significantly.

    I've just been blessed enough to be able to witness a lot of the higher end of audio, and I can say, a lot of the pricing seems like a lot of fluff... like someone just comes up with some number to make it seem like the product is worth more or sounds better than it really should/is/does.

    Some things that come to mind:
    $80,000 open baffle speakers... how is it that without a cabinet, the speaker can cost more than a Tesla?
    $300/3 pieces Shunyata Dark Field II cable elevators? Made of plastic and a rubber band.... really?
    My $31,000 silver speaker wires by Audioquest called the WEL. Don't get me wrong, they sound great... but does silver really cost $27,000 more than the copper version aka Audioquest Oak?
    Wilson Sabrina - $18000 for a modified MDF with X Material speaker with off the shelf (though modified) drivers? Come on. And don't say economies of scale. The factory already has the ability to build speakers so it's not like they came out with a product requiring a new CNC machine.

    Are there products out there with sensible pricing? Of course.
    And yes, the ratio is probably similar to those in midfi for a lot of hifi stuff. I bet a $10,000 amp has parts that cost a total of $1000. So a midfi $4000 amp probably has $400 of parts. I get that.

    But it still does not excuse the racket pricing of many hifi products.

    Just my opinion.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,895
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I’m grateful for two things:
    Free market
    Used market

    ... and roadsides. Roadsides are a favorite form of high-value audiophile shopping.

    B)
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