705's whether to amp?
Greetings. New to Polk and dove in on a holiday sale and might have bit off more than I can chew. I'm also new to high end audio so please bear with me. I've replaced my old AVR with a HDMI Denon AVR-X4400h. I picked up the 705 towers and 706c center. I'm starting to slowly build my HT.
I'm reading everyone recommending external amplification with these speakers. I've plugged the numbers into the Peak SPL calculator below. If the speakers are rated for 88dB with 20 watt min 250 watt max. The receiver seems to be able to achieve 105 dB at 13 feet with 3 speakers plugged into the calculator. So would it be overkill to run these on an external amp? I've considered adding a Emotiva XPA-3 to help drive the Left, Center and Right channels. I do plan to add a subwoofer and surrounds later. What sound characteristics if any would I be missing not using amplification?
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
I'm reading everyone recommending external amplification with these speakers. I've plugged the numbers into the Peak SPL calculator below. If the speakers are rated for 88dB with 20 watt min 250 watt max. The receiver seems to be able to achieve 105 dB at 13 feet with 3 speakers plugged into the calculator. So would it be overkill to run these on an external amp? I've considered adding a Emotiva XPA-3 to help drive the Left, Center and Right channels. I do plan to add a subwoofer and surrounds later. What sound characteristics if any would I be missing not using amplification?
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
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Comments
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/184685/lsim-center-channel-and-front-stage-advice-needed#latest
I can't really comment on the sound characteristics, but the difference between 3 speakers @ 125w (x4400h) and 3 speakers @ 275w (XPA3) on that calculator is 3.4dB so you're not gonna blow your windows out.
The main reason I am considering an external amp for my LCR speakers is that it will leave more power available to other speakers connected to the AVR and allow me to take full advantage of the processing power of the x4400h. The Denon x4400h only has a 710w power supply so connecting 7 or 9 speakers will cause the speakers to see FAR less than the 125w Denon claims. Not to mention, if you're using the AVRs bi-amping assignment for the 705s that only leaves you with the capability of 7.1 without an external amp.
So being "overkill" kinda depends really. Do you like the way the speakers sound now? What volume are you currently listening to movies and music at? And finally, do you see yourself wanting to expand past 7.1 in the future?
AVR: Denon X4400h
Mains: LSiM 705
Center: LSiM 706c
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
The speakers are still in the mail. Doing due diligence research before they arrive. Got in on the $999 deal from Adorama for the holidays. I already have the receiver and it is fantastic. I see what you are saying and before I add surrounds I want to get approval to move forward
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
Your moniker seems to be a good fit.
Your Denon does not put out 710w... It's transformer is too small to be able to back up what the manufacturer claims. A separate amp, even if it is of a similar power rating as the AVR into two channels, will sound vastly improved over what your Denon delivers.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a60c-denon-poa-1500-vu-meters-solid-state
To keep things in the Denon family, the amp above would have your ears believing you just bought new speakers. The performance of the 705's would be on an entirely other level from what you are getting out of the AVR.
The same would apply for this amp...
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99e3d-parasound-halo-a-23-stereo-power-amplifier-a23-15162-solid-state
Bottom line... It's not about watts, It is about the amplifiers ability to provide the CURRENT your speaker needs instantaneously on demand, and the ability to exert control over the speaker in such a way that the sound you hear is as close to what was recorded as possible. The small power supplies and the smaller power capacitors contained within an AVR will inherently fall short every single time.
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
In my setup, I have found the opposite to be true. Movie soundtracks, especially those with lots of music or orchestral scores tend to perform better with a separate amp. True that most of the film's dialog comes from the center channel, but your two main speakers up front could use the extra power as well. In films with heavy special effects as well as strong scores, your center and surrounds will be competing for what little you receiver can deliver. By freeing your AVR of the burden of providing power to a set of hungry towers, you will improve it's ability to take care of the rest.
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
That is what a powerful amp brings to the table, since all it has to do is power the speakers.
So take your time and when funds allow get at least a three channel amp of at least 200wpc.
Anyway, the LSiM speakers the OP will have are not a demanding load, so I suggest he try them with his AVR first before spending money he may not need to.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4400H
105wpc @8 ohms, two channels driven, As Jesse has stated, you may not need it, but with a power rating like that, I would not try to pretend I am in a movie theater any time soon. You will do more damage to an underpowered speaker that an over-powered one.
Get an amp.
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
Crossed over with a capable sub and he'll be fine until the upgrade itch hits. JMHO...
Office Rig- Marantz 2252B, Denon 2910, Kenwood KD2070 TT, Polk RTA 12B's/ RTA8t
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
It lists both 125 and 105, which is the one to look at?
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)105 W
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)125 W
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
I'm well aware of how manufacturers have a tendency to claim more than what their products are capable of. My point was that EVEN IF the x4400h had that much wattage, it still may not be what his setup needs. I only mentioned wattage rather than providing more detail because it's the most relatable to people who are new and as it is the most marketed specification and the OP stated their lack of experience.
AVR: Denon X4400h
Mains: LSiM 705
Center: LSiM 706c
When the time is right what is a sensible affordable solution to strive for? The two I had in mind Outlaw 2200 monoblocks for LCR or Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 3.
The only gear I have that was purchased new is my Oppo UDP-205. The rest I either built myself or bought used.
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
The Denon X4400 is a pretty capable receiver, especially if you're only running 3-5 channels. With the current 3-speaker load, I'd also start without an amp. It'll do 7-9 all right, too, if all the surrounds are fairly easy to drive. Don't expect to drive additional tower speakers for surrounds (which is never something I suggest anyhow, for HT).
Look at it this way - without an amp, you'll get standard performance, which will suit most people. Adding an amp will boost performance, but not everyone will notice or appreciate it.
Both companies make good products, for practicality and space I would get the XPA, that way you only need 1 outlet rather than 3.
I own a X4400H, I also own an XPA3-G3. Both are nice pieces of gear.
When I first got my X4400H I was listening to some music with the house to myself. I started to think of how it would sound without the amp (BasX-A300 at the time 150wX2). I plugged the speakers directly into the AVR ran Audyssey put the same CD on and ...... gross was my first thought. I ran audyssey again went through settings and still gross. It didn't sound bad but it was lacking openness and clarity. I even did 2ch with no sub in full range same thing. I hooked the amp back in ran Audyssey and yes back to good sound. It wasn't bad to the point of not wanting to listen. More like sounds good but... Everything sounds so much nicer with an amp even at lower volume. An amp will make a good recording sound great, a bad recording will sound worse.
Adding an amp depends on the budget for which amp to get. I have an Emotiva. nice amp with great clear warm sound.
Family Room:
Samsung UN60H,
Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, Sony DVP-NS3100ES, WD Live HUB.
Main: Polk Signature S60
Center: Polk CSi-A6
Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
Surrounds: Polk S15
Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room;
Sony KDF-E42A10,
Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
Main: Polk Signature S20
Center: Polk Signature S35
Rear: Polk R15
Sub: HSU STF-2
Working Warehouse;
Sony 2100ES
4 Polk RTi4 about 15' up the wall
Old sony 12" Sub
Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
Have you attempted to turn off Audyssey? I’ve ran it with mixed results it made my existing satellites sound overly bright along with differing crossover frequencies. I’ve turned the eq off but left the speaker distances in, set the crossover manually and pulled out a sound meter and tweaked the channels to 75db at 0 and it sounds fine again. I’ve read that I’m not the only one with such results for what it’s worth. I am new to this receiver but this has been my experience thus far.
IMO, Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO leave a lot to be desired compared to Pioneer's MCACC. Still all of them should only be used to set a base line with final tuning with an SPL meter and your ears.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
Yes hopefully dual purpose, including adding a turntable. I envision using a three channel amp for LCR in the future once I add more channels for surrounds. Likely budget around $1000 or less.
Family Room:
Samsung UN60H,
Denon AVR-X4400H, Emotiva XPA3 GEN3
Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM, Sony DVP-NS3100ES, WD Live HUB.
Main: Polk Signature S60
Center: Polk CSi-A6
Front High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT
Surrounds: Polk S15
Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room;
Sony KDF-E42A10,
Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270
Main: Polk Signature S20
Center: Polk Signature S35
Rear: Polk R15
Sub: HSU STF-2
Working Warehouse;
Sony 2100ES
4 Polk RTi4 about 15' up the wall
Old sony 12" Sub
Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
Good luck.
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
S15
Sony 790S
Denon DP 300f
- 200 watts per channel; all channels driven; into 8 Ohms
So not only did I get much more power to my mains, but the whole experience for home theater was increased.
I ran Audyssey and did not like the way it sounded. So I took the measurements and wrote down the distances and plugged those in manually to the receiver while keeping all other equalizer settings default.
POWER - PS AUDIO M700, LINN LK240, MARANTZ SR5013
PRE/DACS - PS AUDIO STELLAR GAIN, CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CXN V2
SOURCE - DENON 2910, SONY CDX355, JVC XM448, REGA P2 (MODDED) ANIA CART, REGA FONO MC, XBOX 1 S, TIVO BOLT
POWER/WIRES - AQ NIAGARA 5000, AQ HURRICANE HC (2M), AQ MONSOON HC (2M) , AQ COLORADO XLR (2M & 1M) AND RCAs(1M), AQ VICTORIA(1M), ACOUSTIC ZEN SATORI W JUMPERS(3M), ATLAS EOS PC, WW STRATUS X3/AURORA X1 PC, AQ CARBON HDMIs
MISC- OKKI NOKKI RCM, HARMONY ELITE, SONY 75XBR900E
For what it’s worth I had an amazing opportunity and picked up a pair of used Outlaw 2200’s monoblock amps. It does 200 watt RMS. I only connected the 706c center and immediately noticed a change to the range coming out of the 705s when using all 3 channels. I had a feeling like playing stereo provided a more impactful listening experience which had more headroom. Now after adding amplification to just the center I’m experiencing the same type of details from movies. It would appear that the receiver does fine driving two speakers but goes downhill after adding the center. I haven’t even run Audyssey yet. I am a believer now.