Disc versus Computer

machone · August 2018

I bought a new CD the other day.

Usually I rip them and add them to my collection located on a microSD memory of my Quantum Byte computer. But this time I played them first on my Marantz SA8005. Then I ripped them and played them through the Marantz USB from the Quantum Byte. The computer is just not as good. There is loss of air around the instruments/voices and the bass is not as tight as the Marantz.

I double checked other albums and got similar results.

So, same DAC but different source plus the usb cable and the usb interface.
The Quantum Byte is fanless and SS with an excellent linear PS. Running Win10 with Jriver21. The cable is a WireWorld Starlight.

I wonder why there is such a difference?

Conradicles · August 2018

You may hurt some feelings...

machone · August 2018

Conradicles wrote: »

You may hurt some feelings...

It hurts my feelings!

mhardy6647 · August 2018

well, there are a few unit operations to get your data, umm, I mean, music from disc to server. Any or all can do damage, the way that I look at it.

nooshinjohn · August 2018

You need a better DAC

machone · August 2018

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You need a better DAC

I would like a better DAC but my beef is with the same DAC there is a difference.

Let's say I get a better DAC and use the Marantz as a transport versus Skips recommended Aries Mini.

Which one wins?

machone · August 2018

Oops, I thought the Aries Mini was a music server.
If it were then which one is better?

Hermitism · August 2018

Just to clarify, are you ripping them as flac, or another lossless format? Just wanted to make sure they weren't mp3.

machone · August 2018

Hermitism wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you ripping them as flac, or another lossless format? Just wanted to make sure they weren't mp3.

Wave with secure rip in Jriver

Hermitism · August 2018

Cool, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't lossy. I have a Marantz NA8005, and play flac from a thumbdrive, but I can't remember if you can play wave from a thumbdrive. That would give you something to compare it to.

machone · August 2018

I could go coax out from the Marantz to a better DAC but I like the convenience of a computer.

nooshinjohn · August 2018

I go from my computer to a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC II and it made all the difference.

F1nut · August 2018

DSkip wrote: »

A computer is a computer and is not good for audio.

BINGO!!!

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

You need to look at how JRiver is setup to output. If your DAC is only equipped to handle linear pcm then JRiver will convert the file for output even though it’s stored as wav. LPCM can introduce noise and clock issues.

Look for a DAC that installs a dedicated driver on your PC. There are also products that help remove usb generated noise.

billbillw · August 2018

machone wrote: »

Running Win10 with Jriver21. The cable is a WireWorld Starlight.

I wonder why there is such a difference?

Windows 10 is your reason. Get a linux setup that can do true bit-perfect playback with asysnchronous USB. Then you may hear the opposite effect>Better with USB than by disc. Something like Daphile would be easy to setup and should give you the best possible playback from that little PC.

billbillw · August 2018

DSkip wrote: »

A computer is a computer and is not good for audio. I regret building my computer as it cost me thousands and was outdone by a $500 Aries Mini.

Yep, no reason to spend 1000s on a PC for music playback. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with a PC as long as it is simple, has no moving parts, and has the correct software/OS running. I have found a sub-$50 thin client (something with a small SSD, and no fan) running Daphile can perform on par with something like an Aries Mini or other dedicated streaming device.

DarqueKnight · August 2018

machone wrote: »

The computer is just not as good.

I wonder why there is such a difference?

Electrical noise and mechanical noise.

A well designed audio component has a low noise...and noise filtering...power supply.
Thought is given to the electrical noise characteristics of the components that are selected, and the position of those components in relation to each other. If an audio component has a fan, some thought is given to selecting a fan that has very low electrical and mechanical noise.

General purpose computers are not designed for high fidelity, low noise music reproduction.

Clipdat · August 2018

This is the key. Even Windows 10 can be configured for bit perfect playback.

As far as components and layout, there are higher end components available when putting together a DIY gaming/audio PC. Certain power supplies for example use Japanese capacitors and other electronics, and boast a 10 year warranty.

So, there are certain build considerations that you can keep in mind, as well as case layout/component proximity. But, you can't custom manufacture a bespoke motherboard with the sole purpose of audio reproduction like AURALiC has with their G1 and G2 products. Take a look at the internals of them, they're gorgeous!

billbillw wrote: »

Yep, no reason to spend 1000s on a PC for music playback. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with a PC as long as it is simple, has no moving parts, and has the correct software/OS running. I have found a sub-$50 thin client (something with a small SSD, and no fan) running Daphile can perform on par with something like an Aries Mini or other dedicated streaming device.

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

DSkip wrote: »

billbillw wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

A computer is a computer and is not good for audio. I regret building my computer as it cost me thousands and was outdone by a $500 Aries Mini.

Yep, no reason to spend 1000s on a PC for music playback. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with a PC as long as it is simple, has no moving parts, and has the correct software/OS running. I have found a sub-$50 thin client (something with a small SSD, and no fan) running Daphile can perform on par with something like an Aries Mini or other dedicated streaming device.

Sorry but not the case. My computer also had no moving parts outside of the optical drive.

As DK said, these streaming devices are optimized for the job and the difference is evident. They are transports by definition and their quality has a direct impact on the sound. I'm not saying you can't get decent sound from a computer, but they simply don't compete with good streamers. I'm also not saying someone should spend thousands on a streamer as some systems may not expose the benefits fully. Heck, I still use a Denon HEOS link with a system and am fine with it.

I did get the AURALiC Aries G1 in yesterday and it replaced the HEOS since I had sold my Aries. Wow, what a difference right off the bat!

Sorry that is the case. My PC setup with an asynchronous USB DAC sounds “great” not “decent.” So...pffft.

Mechanical noise aside, as long bit perfect data arrives at the DAC and the DAC can process the bit perfect data then the source supplying the bit perfect data is irrelevant.

Skip, in your case you went from a dedicated pc supplying data to your DAC to an all in one solution which also used a different DAC, no?

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

A CD transport sure, pcm over a digital cable sure, the same file, bitrate, over usb to the same DAC, nope not a chance. Impossible.

Any difference you heard was likely some additional processing taking place, as you noted in the PC, or the streamer is manipulating the file via a dsp of sorts. A dsp that boosts the dB just a decibel or two can be perceived as greater sound quality.

Truth is you don’t know what the streamer is doing. You just know you prefer it to the PC you had.

The blanket statement pc based transports are inferior to streamers, specifically the ones in your product catalog, is misguided, based on a single example with too many variables and not enough facts.

Come on man keep it real.

Clipdat · August 2018

If you are saying that a CD transport can have an audible influence, why can't a streaming transport?

I've never personally compared a streamer to a PC head to head to see if I could hear a difference playing back the same source over WiFI, but is it really that hard to accept that there would be one?

The AURALiC G1 is just another type of transport. Based on the type of product it is, and who they are marketing it to, it would be foolish for them to build in a DSP that artificially alters the sound. If they did have some DSP/EQing options built in, surely they can be disabled in the software by the user. Accuracy is the name of the game, so why would AURALiC want to do something that takes away from that?

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

A CD transport sure, pcm over a digital cable sure, the same file, bitrate, over usb to the same DAC, nope not a chance. Impossible.

Any difference you heard was likely some additional processing taking place, as you noted in the PC, or the streamer is manipulating the file via a dsp of sorts. A dsp that boosts the dB just a decibel or two can be perceived as greater sound quality.

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

DSkip wrote: »

I am. If the files are streamed via wifi and the computer is not hard wired you won't have the same issues. At that point the file is being transmitted without the inherent noise floor of the computer following it. That is what I tried to avoid with my computer build and I thought it was great until I realized I maybe lost a layer of noise but had so much more on top of it.

I'm not sure why one digital signal is any more or less susceptible than the other? If it's digital then it's digital so I feel as though you are contradicting yourself.

This I can almost agree with, but clarifying the noise isn’t transferred with the digital file, but from the physical connection from the pc. However IF there is any noise present it would only be a slight static hiss that couldn’t be heard unless your ears were right next to the tweets. So the effect described in your post overstates the issue as this can’t be heard during playback and shouldn’t make the distinction from decent sound to great sound.
Also this type of noise is noticed with many other sources an individual may be using, so it isn’t specific to the pc. As you stated WiFi eliminates this physical connection so yes streamers can have that advantage. But I will tell you my dedicated laptop has no such issues transferring static over the USB and it’s a straight off the shelf upper tier VAIO from 5 years ago. My tweets are dead silent between tracks.

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

Skip please don’t feel like you need to defend yourself regarding your intent. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and my only point was that you were stating streamers in general are superior. But, It would seem your basis for that statement relates your experience with AURALiC in your system and a single PC experience.

Streamers can come in all levels and it’s possible some of them also may generate some level of static noise on their own. They are computers too after all. So for me it’s the execution of either product that is going make the difference between decent and great because they are in fact only delivering a bit perfect identical file to the asynchronous USB DAC; and again not to be confused with a CD Transport sending 2ch lpcm over a coax to a DAC.

billbillw · August 2018

DSkip wrote: »

Sorry but not the case. My computer also had no moving parts outside of the optical drive.

Yes, but what OS/software were you using? Also, did you have a big noise switching mode power supply inside the case? If so, that can be a difference. The thin clients have simple 19V external power supply like a laptop. Unless you were using a dedicated music playback OS/software like Daphile, you can't really compare.

Some other's have pointed out that Windows can be configured to do bit-perfect playback. This may be true, but Windows has far too many other things going on in the background to ever get the best playback. Its not just about bit-perfect, but also having a minimal OS that focuses on music playback.

Clipdat · August 2018

I'm pretty sure that the type of noise we are discussing here isn't the type that manifests itself into a "static hiss". It's not something that is audible during regular listening, but once it's removed, then you have the realization that it's no longer there.

@F1nut @DSkip @pitdogg2 @tonyb - did I just describe that correctly?

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

This I can almost agree with, but clarifying the noise isn’t transferred with the digital file, but from the physical connection from the pc. However IF there is any noise present it would only be a slight static hiss that couldn’t be heard unless your ears were right next to the tweets. So the effect described in your post overstates the issue as this can’t be heard during playback and shouldn’t make the distinction from decent sound to great sound.
Also this type of noise is noticed with many other sources an individual may be using, so it isn’t specific to the pc. As you stated WiFi eliminates this physical connection so yes streamers can have that advantage. But I will tell you my dedicated laptop has no such issues transferring static over the USB and it’s a straight off the shelf upper tier VAIO from 5 years ago. My tweets are dead silent between tracks.

F1nut · August 2018

Clipdat wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the type of noise we are discussing here isn't the type that manifests itself into a "static hiss". It's not something that is audible during regular listening, but once it's removed, then you have the realization that it's no longer there.

@F1nut @DSkip @pitdogg2 @tonyb - did I just describe that correctly?

Bingo! It's called the noise floor.

SCompRacer · August 2018

Prior to stripping mini-PC's of unnecessary components to provide Linux based audio only servers, SOtM manufactured a PCIe USB card. It was designed to be externally powered via battery or high quality DC power supply.

SOtM also made hard drive power filters. Sonore installed high quality power supplies for their fanless mini-PC's. Aluminum hard drive enclosures acted as heat sinks and were isolated with Sorbothane dots to prevent mechanical noise. All to provide the cleanest, lowest noise signal to the DAC.

The issue with the Signature Sonore with Deux Power Supplies music server, the price. Now with the stripped versions, expense is less without sacrificing performance.

These components, implemented properly with quality power supplies, made a huge improvement over standard PC's used as music servers.

jeremymarcinko · August 2018

The noise floor you’re referring is affected at the analog portion of the signal chain, we are talking prior to the DAC. I’ll say it again a bit perfect file arriving at the same DAC doesn’t care how it got there and cannot be affected. No amount of extraneous noise at this stage will change the data in any way whatsoever. Any difference outside of hiss is taking place somewhere down the chain beyond the DAC. Like it or not that’s the truth.

machone · August 2018

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

You need to look at how JRiver is setup to output. If your DAC is only equipped to handle linear pcm then JRiver will convert the file for output even though it’s stored as wav. LPCM can introduce noise and clock issues.

Look for a DAC that installs a dedicated driver on your PC. There are also products that help remove usb generated noise.

FYI:
I am using Fidelizer to shut down unnecessary processes unrelated to audio and I have an iFiPurifier2 on the usb input to the Marantz.

I checked my Jriver settings last night.

Audio Device
-Audio Device=Marantz ASIO Device
-Volume=automatically select (I don't know why this was the setting)
-Buffer=50ms
-large hardware buffer=yes
-buffer size=3840 samples

DSP
-output format
--output encoding=none
--sample rate=no change except 176,400 for over 384,000 (for dsd)
-channels=2
-mixing=no up or down

play files from memory=yes

bitstream=yes (dsd)
-option
--bitstream format=dsd

use gapless for sequential album track=yes

I changed two settings.

-Volume=Marantz usb audio
-sample rate=176,400 for all

While playing the Marantz confirms either dsd or 176,400.

I did not A-B between the disc and the computer because things were sounding sweet and I was really enjoying the session! Also, previously I usually have several stutters during a session and last night there were none.

billbillw · August 2018

Again....Windows....That is why Skip could see such a huge improvement, that is why you see a difference.

A free way to try it: Make an Acronis (or similar full disc image software) backup of your main disk. Wipe it and load Daphile. Try it out, be amazed. If not, restore your image and point out that I was terribly wrong. I can handle it if I am.

Thorton · August 2018

This is a good thread with so many people having different configurations and set-ups to get music to their system with many different end results. I plan to try some different things in the future. I believe this could really make a nice “tour” with something like the Aries, Lumin U1 or Aurender N100C.

Disc versus Computer

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