Disc versus Computer

machone

billbillw wrote: »

Again....Windows....That is why Skip could see such a huge improvement, that is why you see a difference.

A free way to try it: Make an Acronis (or similar full disc image software) backup of your main disk. Wipe it and load Daphile. Try it out, be amazed. If not, restore your image and point out that I was terribly wrong. I can handle it if I am.

I took a quick look at Daphile. What would be recommended as a headless control?

Clipdat

I use the Safari web browser on my Galaxy S8, works fine.

machone wrote: »

I took a quick look at Daphile. What would be recommended as a headless control?

Clipdat

You seem to be fixated on what happens after the "bit perfect" data reaches the DAC. Start thinking about what happens before that point.

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

The noise floor you’re referring is affected at the analog portion of the signal chain, we are talking prior to the DAC. I’ll say it again a bit perfect file arriving at the same DAC doesn’t care how it got there and cannot be affected. No amount of extraneous noise at this stage will change the data in any way whatsoever. Any difference outside of hiss is taking place somewhere down the chain beyond the DAC. Like it or not that’s the truth.

jeremymarcinko

Clipdat wrote: »

You seem to be fixated on what happens after the "bit perfect" data reaches the DAC. Start thinking about what happens before that point.

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

The noise floor you’re referring is affected at the analog portion of the signal chain, we are talking prior to the DAC. I’ll say it again a bit perfect file arriving at the same DAC doesn’t care how it got there and cannot be affected. No amount of extraneous noise at this stage will change the data in any way whatsoever. Any difference outside of hiss is taking place somewhere down the chain beyond the DAC. Like it or not that’s the truth.

The contrary actually. Are you following along?

@DSkip Hold on back the truck up. USB and other digital cables are NOT analog, let’s not confuse anyone with this. They do NOT pass an analog audio signal that directly represents the frequency. Analog signals are directly amplified digital is not. Digital signals only have two values and never reach the amp; they end at the DAC. Digital signals are decoded then the DAC recreates an analog signal. The noise present on a digital interface cannot effect the value of a given bit. They are both electrical I’ll give you that.

Any DAC worth it’s salt will filter out any lingering noise that has made its down the cable to the DAC. If not there are inexpensive filters that can added that will remove it or lessen to a negligible amount. Now any noise that still exists can create a hiss if amplified enough, but this type of noise is present to some degree on almost any analog audio device.

jeremymarcinko

Unlike USB, CD transports can have errors in with the timing of data delivery to the DAC, as there is no synchronized clock between the transport and DAC. In this type of scenario data is pushed at the pace of the transport.

jeremymarcinko

Oh dear lord did you say that out loud first? You really need to hear yourself right now. Jk trying to be funny, but Analog realm, really? Are we redefining the properties of what is and what isn’t? You are saying because it has electrical properties it is analog, sorry that’s not what analog means. I already explained this but I’ll do it again. A cable is a cable but the distinction is in the type of signal they carry, yeah? Analog refers to a signal that is linear and has a continuously variable set of values. Ideally these values do not change as the signal travels to its destination but they will some and that’s called distortion.

A digital signal on the other hand only has two values as we know are 1s and 0’s in code but as an electrical signal it’s just on or off. and therefore by definition is NOT continuously variable and is NOT analog.

There is no analog (continuously variable) signal on the rendering side or input side of the DAC. There is low level noise, as you know we have beat that topic to death, that can create a static hiss at the tweets if amplified enough.

The point I think you are trying to make is that the noise on the rendering side of the DAC is significantly affecting the analog signal on the output side of the DAC. Which is where I think we disagree in its ability to do so.

As I’ve mentioned it gets filtered or can be easily filtered. I agree it’s better to have a less noisy rendering platform to begin with, but the noise is not a complicated problem to fix.

So keeping it real, PCs are more than decent digital sources. Streamers and PCs can both be great when executed properly.

nooshinjohn

Where is the Darqueknight when we need him...

SCompRacer

There are a couple issues with dirty USB power carrying your digital info to a DAC. One is jitter and another is packet noise in the USB receiver of the DAC. Thus you can affect sound output of a DAC with poor USB input. The more processing to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Like it or not, that’s the truth.

F1nut

Audio should never be as complicated as the computer/server gear mentioned in this thread. Seems to me far too many have forgotten the KISS approach.

kharp1

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

The noise floor you’re referring is affected at the analog portion of the signal chain, we are talking prior to the DAC. I’ll say it again a bit perfect file arriving at the same DAC doesn’t care how it got there and cannot be affected. No amount of extraneous noise at this stage will change the data in any way whatsoever. Any difference outside of hiss is taking place somewhere down the chain beyond the DAC. Like it or not that’s the truth.

Prove it. Please.

jeremymarcinko

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Where is the Darqueknight when we need him...

SCompRacer wrote: »

There are a couple issues with dirty USB power carrying your digital info to a DAC. One is jitter and another is packet noise in the USB receiver of the DAC. Thus you can affect sound output of a DAC with poor USB input. The more processing to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Like it or not, that’s the truth.

It’s not the truth and not how jitter occurs. Jitter doesn’t have any meaningful affect on the asynchronous USB DACs we are discussing.
We already discussed this and it’s not the cause of the audible drop in noise floor Skip has noticed.

Packet noise is just another name for the same static noise and we have already established there are inexpensive products that remove it effectively.

joecoulson

While I am in the midst of deciding what streamer to purchase, I appreciate all of the insight presented in this thread. I also appreciate while opinions are heavily presented, it’s all done without (for the most part) emotion and specifically unpleasantries.
I am very interested in all of this as I have no way to audition the units I am considering without buying them first. Seems to me that digital signals can be affected both internally (by transports, DAC’s ) and externally (power supplies, wires, circuit boards) and would be almost impossible to pass an original file without some sort of influence before reaching amplification.
I have considered the portable hi res players because it takes the power supply out of the equation.
I like the sound (no pun) of what I am hearing (again no pun) on here about the Aries mini, but cannot seem to find one.
I also love the look of the CA CXN v2 and from what I have read will do a great job, but again $900 to see if it works for me.
Currently I am running the Denon 2910 with Toslink and the Sonos Connect with Toslink to the Marantz pre and letting the onboard Marantz DAC’s process.
I’ve tried the DAC’s in the 2910, which are not bad, but prefer the Marantz.
I know that sonos is more about convenience than top shelf audio, but Tidal sounds pretty good.
Just not sure if it will be a massive difference ($900 worth) swapping out the Connect for a streamer.
Not until I do anyway.
Thank you all for pouring out your knowledge on this forum for us to delve into.

SCompRacer

zuul wrote: »

as i've querried before.... don't devices like the aq jitterbug and schiit wyrd usb decrapifier address this issue directly? thus lowering the noise floor to barely audible levels?

Common mode USB noise can cause problems at the DAC receiver. Audioquest even states "Noise-compromised digital circuitry increases jitter and packet errors, resulting in distortion that causes a comparatively flat and irritating sound." Marketing hype or truth with marketing hype?

I've built many DAC's over the years. I've tried every type of input and settled on USB. USB to I2S specifically. If folks wish to go the Jitterbug 'fix' route that's great. I'd rather invest in prevention instead of buying a cure.

jeremymarcinko

Folks should know I2S is a standard interface employed in almost all off the shelf asynchronous USB DAC devices.

It’s job is reduce noise from the PC to the DAC by isolating the DAC chip.

Clipdat

@jeremymarcinko I mean this in the friendliest, least combative way possible, but have you ever directly compared a PC to a dedicated streamer to see if you could notice any audible differences?

SCompRacer

Yet there is USB to SPDIF, thus the I2S mention.

machone

SComp said "I'd rather invest in prevention instead of buying a cure".

My understanding is that usb in audio is almost always unidirectional. If there is a packet error then it cannot be resent and even if it could be resent; music is occurring in real time and the resent packets would have to arrive during the same clock cycle in order to "close the loop" and be "bit perfect".

Dirty power supplies cause packet errors and when they occur they are not corrected and therefore no bit perfect stream. This is the reason people spend a lot of money for clean power for any type of computer or streamer.

Thorton

Does anyone has experience with or can comment on sending the signal via ethernet vs USB?

jeremymarcinko

Streamers yes - High end no.

I am debating purely from a logical stance.

So if you’re following the thread I am not disputing the high end streamers can’t sound better than a PC, I am not doubting Skips experience the least. I am saying that both devices job is to deliver the file to the DACs and outside of bit perfect there is no room for improvement. The USB DAC will create an output signal + whatever low level static output exists to this point and it does not matter the source. After the DAC the name of the game is to reduce signal degradation as much as possible, using Skips term, in the Analog realm.

I’ll even go as far as saying that if you want to try WiFi bit perfect streaming all that is necessary is your IPhone. I am 99% sure it can do usb audio to a compatible asynchronous USB DAC.

Yeah why not, the truth is no one needs a dedicated streamer to get the most out of their DAC.

SCompRacer

Thorton wrote: »

Does anyone has experience with or can comment on sending the signal via ethernet vs USB?

Nice speakers!

Like a hardwired Squeezebox Touch or between transport/server and DAC?


For the DIY'er, I've used Twisted Pear Digital Transceivers, or Teleporters, to connect a modded Denon 3910 used as transport to my DAC. They have standard ethernet connection and IIRC allowed up to 100 feet of cable between devices without negative effects.



I snagged I2S out of the 3910 to be sent to the DAC. I2S was not designed for long runs. Think inches, not feet. With I2S, clock is separate of data. With SPDIF clock is embedded and the DAC must sort the clock out. Some DAC's do a better job with SPDIF than others, but they usually sound better with well implemented I2S.

Basically you need two Teleporters, one set to transmit and one to receive. I also snagged I2S out of a Squeezebox Touch using a Teleporter to send to the DAC.




It worked great, but I did learn quality of the cabling made a difference. By quality I don't mean spending a lot of money. I was getting drop outs playing DSD out of the 3910 with a standard store bought patch cord. BlueJeans Cable offered cables that were Fluke meter tested ensuring the termination was done properly. Like $8 for a tested, one meter cable and it solved the problem.

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/is-your-cat6-a-dog.htm

Viking64

I have no idea what is going on, so here are 3 dogs modeling human clothes.

kharp1

My vote is for dog number two, sporting the cable knit sweater and pea coat. The 8 quarter hat is a nice touch as well.

mantis

I have some experience here with ripping CD's to a computer then playing them back through a stereo system.
Years ago I use to work for a company called Audiolab. This is a place where local Audiophiles would go to purchase their high end gear, get advise and go to seminars that we would bring in an expert from the field.
When music servers became the thing to do, we went pretty deep in and I learned a lot.
What I found was ripping a CD onto a Mac using Puremusic software bit for bit sounded better then a high end CD transport running through a high end DAC.
We also had Bryston's music streamer which was pretty damn good and also to all of us sounded better then a CD spinning in a CD player or transport.
The computers of choice where always Mac's not Windows Machines. Sure many guys built music servers out of Windows based Machines but they where Windows 7 and I think a few guys used XP.
J River was one of the Software packaged used on the Windows machines and I always loved the interface. It was really nice clean and so easy to use.
Using Puremusic ran iTunes on top of it. So basically you had your iTunes library mixed with Rips , Flac files High rez stuff etc.
Even Vinyl was able to be ripped.
We did a full seminar with the engineer and owner of Pure Music. He was a little Doc Brown so I had to re explain what he was talking about to our clients as we watched a lot of them glaze over as he spoke.

I good quality CD player or Transport mated with a good quality DAC and cables is very hard to beat when everything is working 100% meaning no loss or errors. This is what the hard drive is suppose to provide along with a high quality DAC. No Scratches on the Disc no jitter etc. This was back when solid state drives where very high priced not that they came down that much if at all today but we where using high quality 7200 RPM drives not Solid State.

steveinaz

THIS thread is why I prefer an external usb hard drive plugged directly into my streaming device. Simple, noiseless, no Wi-Fi issues, no endless software configuration to ensure bit-bit accuracy, no dependence on network resources. When the Oppo dies, I'll get a Bluesound Node 2 and continue to march.

and FWIW, I found long ago that hard drive music sounded better to me, than from a CD player---both tested while connected to the same external DAC. Just MY 2 cents.

Clipdat

Steve, what kind of CD player was it?

steveinaz

C.E.C. CD-3300 via coaxial out to Benchmark DAC. Rare for its breed having both XLR (AES/EBU) digital out and XLR analog outputs. Still have it, minty fresh in a box. As smooth as that player was, the flac files via HDD sounded ever so slightly more natural.

Clipdat

Cool. Thanks for sharing your experience/comparison.

billbillw

steveinaz wrote: »

THIS thread is why I prefer an external usb hard drive plugged directly into my streaming device. Simple, noiseless, no Wi-Fi issues, no endless software configuration to ensure bit-bit accuracy, no dependence on network resources. When the Oppo dies, I'll get a Bluesound Node 2 and continue to march.

and FWIW, I found long ago that hard drive music sounded better to me, than from a CD player---both tested while connected to the same external DAC. Just MY 2 cents.

Steve, I know you like things simple, but I've yet to find an external USB drive that is noiseless, unless you are talking about a large, expensive SSD. That works fine if you have a high quality playback unit that can handle external storage, and has a nice interface for control, but that is pretty uncommon. They also tend to be quite expensive.

The setup I have expounded (Daphile on an inexpensive thin client) does not require endless software configuration or anything of the sort. Daphile just works out of the box and is already optimized for music playback (bit-perfect). The only setup I had to do was give it a fixed IP address, enter wifi password, and tell it where my network storage was located (server). After some time, it scans the library, gives you artwork, etc. You can easily create playlists, stack as many albums to play as you want, etc. It can handle virtually any digital audio format (only limited by your DAC).

If you have a high quality access point/router, there are no "Wi-Fi issues." I have never had any streaming issues (related to wifi) with my setup, even going back to when I had a laptop feeding it over wifi using Foobar.

Yes, it is reliant on my server being up and running, but that is a choice I made a long time ago. It allows me to playback my ripped music on multiple devices around the house. I can play through any one three Roku devices, the Hitachi wireless speaker, my main 2-ch stereo, or even through our tablets, phones, laptops. Plus, when I add new music, I just sync my desktop storage drive to the server. No need to disconnect an external drive and hook it to the computer.

As I said, I know you like things simple/easy, but that is not for everyone.

steveinaz

I use Western Digital MyBook external hard drives, which are basically silent. I put felt feet on the case and get no noise. I have done the Wi-Fi/server type setup in the past with good success (Squeezebox w/laptop and ext HDD)---I'll look into Daphile. I'm always interested in doing things more efficiently. The Oppo just made it very simple, but the interface isn't very flexible.

billbillw

Daphile is based on on Squeezebox server software, so it might be somewhat familiar to you.