And the debate continues...
Comments
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I had one of those. I'm actually surprised all TT's today are not linear tracking.nooshinjohn wrote: »Linear tracking solves that pesky problem. Such a setup tracks the recording the way it was cut in the first place.
I often think about getting one - many are even track programmable like a CD I guess which is a cool luxury - but do I need a third TT? No!
Then again - Does need count for anything in audio - No! Maybe I'll start looking again LOL.VA HT HK AVR20II, Sony S9000ES CD/DVD/SACD, Polk Audio RC80i / Polk Audio CSi3, 60" Panasonic Plasma, Nordost / Signal Cable A2 / Wireworld / Pangea / Magic Power
VA 2 Channel Focal Electra 926 speakers, Pass Labs X150.5 Amp, Eastern Electric MiniMax Preamp (Tutay mods), Eastern Electric Minimax CDP (Scott Nixon mods), Music Hall mmf 5.1 Turntable, Parks Audio Budgie Phono Pre , Audioengine B1 streamer, MIT S3 IC's / MIT Shotgun S3 Speaker Cables / PS Audio power cables
Noggin Schiit Valhalla, Pangea, Phillips Fidelio X1, Polk UF8000
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Yamaha YP-D6
Soundcraftsmen PCR800
Audible Illusions L1 Preamp
Vincent MFA based Cocci Tube Preamp
Pho-700 Phono Pre
Signal Cable Silver Resolution IC's -
In the 80's I had a Yamaha PX-3 linear tracking, LOVED it. Later replaced it with a Yamaha PF-1000---loved it too. I believe my "ex" still has the PF-1000.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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That article is useless because it's all about the guys who are for digital. So what. As they keep saying, "digital measures better every time". Who cares? I don't have the hearing of measuring equipment, do I? No, I have the hearing of a human being. A lot of things look a lot better on paper, but once put side by side in real life, things can change real quick and be the exact opposite of those measurements.
This distortion BS they kept going on about when the needle gets towards the label on the record... It's called "Inner Groove Distortion", or IGD. IF you're not a complete bone-head and have a decent TT, decent cartridge and actually know how to set the whole thing up, you won't get any of that IGD. I can play ANY of my records and they play crystal clear from beginning to end.
I've got probably 13 or so albums that I have on CD, vinyl, FLAC, High Rez, SACD, DSD and even old DVD Audio, some of which are Fleetwood Mac, Depeche Mode, Norah Jones, Genesis, Phil Collins, U2, Metallica, Jimmy Rogers, and a few others. Every single one of them, the vinyl sounds better... Every single time!
Sure, the LP's may lack just a slight bit of dynamic range, but not much. They certainly don't lack any bass or treble over the other media types, nor does the cartridge start jumping and hopping all over the place. Again, that has to do strongly with proper TT setup.
Even one of my brothers who absolutely hates vinyl says time and time again that vinyl on my system always sounds so much better than the digital equivalent. And this is coming from someone that "hates" vinyl! Go figure.
On top of all that, now with all of the "heavy" vinyl out there these days (150, 180, 200 & 220 gram), the recording and mastering engineers take more time in the process of making great sounding LP's. PLUS full size 12" vinyl cut at 45 rpm allows for more information to be put back in the vinyl to close the gap even more with digital as far as "measurements" go, which I could give a rat's ****$ about. Which none of that is to say that old original pressings from the 50's through late 80's weren't great sounding either. They were! There's some old albums of mine on thin flimsy mass produced vinyl that still sounds better than the same on remastered heavy vinyl. Obviously a lot if not all of that has to do with the remastering.
And the "warmth" people talk about when referring to vinyl is NOT due to muffled bass or rolled off treble. It has to do with the fact that everything associated with a TT is about vibration. The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm. Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording, but they are what breathes life into the sound of vinyl, taking on an organic life of its own and giving the overall sound a sense of being alive. Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
And trust me, the so-called wonderful measurements of digital are definitely not without faults of their own with grain and jitter with mis-matched clocking. But Anyway...
I am all for vinyl. Always have been, always will be. And nothing will ever change that. -
Chops, you started off well with your first post, but you have fallen hard.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Hopefully, I have attached several photos from Guy Fletcher's diary of the recording of Mark Knopfler's last two albums.
See more at http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk
Fletcher's diaries give us a glimpse of the various equipment they utilitzed to record these albums. Much of it is restored vintage analog. Great care is taken in choosing the equipment, at every step of the way, just as they choose their guitars and other instruments. Many artists are going back to recording on analog tape machines, (as well as utilizing analog microphones and vintage tube amplifiers, etc.,) to attempt to capture as much as possible a lifelike and realistic studio recording.
http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/images/cms/diaries/2014 Recording/Entry 3/ATRMontage.jpg
http://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/images/cms/diaries/MK 2011 studio diary/3x2trks.jpg -
Chops, you started off well with your first post, but you have fallen hard.
How do you figure?
Just because you "grew up on vinyl" and have no plans of ever going back to it but because I do like vinyl and continue to use it? Or because I complained about the people who were interviewed in that article?
That doesn't seem like a very fair assessment of me coming from you. -
Anaheim Hills CA,
HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30
2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703 -
To summarize,
VINYL SUCKS
NO IT DOESN'T
I search for the best media I can find
DIGITAL SUCKS
NO IT DOESN'T
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I am in my fifties and I started with vinyl, went to CDs and now I am back to vinyl. I have experienced both crappy and fantastic sound in CDs and LPs, but I do prefer the active listening experience of vinyl. You are fully engaged when you are listening to vinyl. I enjoy the artwork, reading lyrics, and reading the information about the production of the LP. CDs just don't provide the same experience. Getting good sonic results from vinyl does require a pretty substantial investment and there is a learning curve, especially when you have to worry about tracking, cartridges, hum, phono stages, etc., etc. I do think the trouble is well worth it, especially if you want a more immersive experience. If you are digital guru, great, but I am sticking with my vinyl. Considering the nature of our instant gratification society, I can understand the appeal of digital formats. I guess rather than chugging a shot of espresso, I think I would rather nurse a cappuccino.Living Room
Parasound Model 2250v2 amplifier
Parasound P5 preamp
Turntable 1 - Technics SL-1210Mk2 turntable with Shure V-15 Type III cartridge
Turntable 2 - Dual 1229 turntable, Dual AS-12 45 RPM stacker, Shure V-15 Type III cartridge
Schiit Mani Phono Preamp for Turntable 2
Oppo UDP-205 CD/SACD USB and FLAC duties
Technics RS-1500US reel to reel
Polk SDA SRS (2nd Gen) fully modded -
Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording
No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
That is where you fell down.
If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording
No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
That is where you fell down.
If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.
The same can be said about choice in gear concerning vinyl. Ticks, pops, surface noise, etc. that you don't like in your vinyl listening experience are largely dependent on not only cleanliness, but also gear. Some cartridges, phono pres, mats, etc. are much quieter with the ticks, pops, etc. than others.
I'm not here to tell anyone what is the superior format. Whatever you like to listen to, go for it! I like all the formats, but prefer vinyl. Why? because in my setup it sounds the best! That's me and my setup. Obviously different folks have different experiences. Whatever you like, rock on! -
Having grown up also on vinyl, I can honestly say it for sure doesn't suck. It's just a pain in the arse is all.
There are of course benefits and drawbacks to both vinyl and digital. Comes down to what fits your lifestyle really. I still dig the vinyl sound, just can't deal with all that's involved and having to get up to turn an album after the 3 songs I like are done. Digital is getting real close to vinyl, so much so that one really has to weigh the pro's and con's of each.
Either way, if your diggin' the vinyl scene, rock on brothers.....and if your diggin' the digital side, more power to you too.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Digital Bytes.
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Yes, those vibrations are part of the actual recording
No, they aren't. They are part of the playback method.Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
That is where you fell down.
If that's what you expereince with your digital media I submit that it is a result of your choice of gear rather than the format.
Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.
The initial vibrations (the ones coming from the stylus and cantilever) ARE part of the original recording. If not, then you're just listening to the lead-in and lead-out grooves.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with my digital gear. Over the years I've had Sony ES, Carver, Pioneer Elite, Rega, Cary Audio, McIntosh, Moon Audio (just to name a few) CD players, SACD players, DVD-A players, transports and DAC's, and a plethora of high-end interconnects.
Every time, my analog rig always sounded better. And as TT's and preamps are concerned, I've had everything from 80's vintage Yamaha, Denon, Luxman, Technics TT's as well as new Linn, Music Hall, Project, Thorens, Clearaudio TT's with a number of high-end preamps and interconnects.
So in short, I'm pretty sure I have a fairly good grip on my quality of gear and proper setup.
Oh, and these people who complain all the time about ticks and pops with vinyl... That's because those people don't know how to properly take care of and maintain their vinyl. I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them. It also has a lot to do with poor choices of the type of stylus used.
I guess now you'll say that my "inferior gear" isn't good enough to pick up on those ticks and pops. LOL -
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Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.
Ummm....no.The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm.
All that vibration you note is not part of the recording. It's part of the playback method.Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
Like I said, the problem seems to be with your choice of gear as there are a great many, including myself that find digital to be anything but how you describe it.I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.
I've heard a ton of vinyl on some very impressive set ups with cleaned to death LP's and every time there has been a pop, a click, whatever. To you, I say BS and welcome to the BOZO list.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Not quite sure why the hostility here from the vinyl crowd. Sure it can sound good, but it is obsolete, and it does have ticks, pops, and rumble. There is no denying that. On the other hand, digital will only get better and better (along with less expensive), while vinyl has reached its peak, and that peak costs upward of 6 figures to reach. Also, holding and reading a record jacket adds to the enjoyment? LOL. That reminds me of smokers trying to rationalize their addiction by saying smoking gives them something to do with their hands. Apparently, many would rather play with their music instead of listen to it. Anyway, that is fine. Whatever turns you on.
Granted, if I had a spare 20k-30k I might buy a starter table, arm, cartridge, phono pre, cables, maple plinth, brass footers, record cleaner, and a couple of records, but I will probably put that towards getting the new Magico S7 speaker.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I would like to know what cartridge stylus combo that is that virtually eliminates ticks and pops on not one album but all albums, amazing to say the least.Home Theater
Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable
2 Channel
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Stuff for the Head
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Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin
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oh you digital guys are so smug.
Wait till your power goes out.
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Uh yeah, you're wrong on both accounts.
Ummm....no.The cartridge not only picks up the vibration from the tip of the stylus, but also the TT plinth, the platter, the LP, and the tonearm.
All that vibration you note is not part of the recording. It's part of the playback method.Something NONE of the dry, lifeless, dead, sterile digital media will ever reward you with.
Like I said, the problem seems to be with your choice of gear as there are a great many, including myself that find digital to be anything but how you describe it.I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.
I've heard a ton of vinyl on some very impressive set ups with cleaned to death LP's and every time there has been a pop, a click, whatever. To you, I say BS and welcome to the BOZO list.
Whatever. I'm not going to get into a stupid pissing contest, nor am I going to go into any more explanations, nor am I going to bother to explain how things work and why, nor do I need to try and prove myself to anyone, especially to you.
I've browsed around on this forum for several years and have always noticed the way you talk to people on here that you don't exactly agree with. The main reason I've always been hesitant about joining. You, yes YOU give this very forum a bad name. It's pretty bad when other forums on the internet talk (a.k.a. - complain) about you. I've heard stories about "F1nut on the Polk forum" for years. That's pretty freakin' bad. I knew it would only be a period of time before you'd start your crap with me.
Just because you've been on here for years and have a post count of well over 30k does NOT make you an expert on everything, does NOT mean that you are always correct, and certainly does NOT give you the right to to talk down to people all the time. I bet you've got a big mouth in real life, always having something to say.
And what's even worse, you have your little typical group of buddies that attempt to back you up and support your nonsense. Either that or they're just afraid that you have some pull around here to have people banned. I for one don't care one bit. I've only been on this forum for what, not even a week, and I'm beyond tired of your BS.
Remember my first post on this forum about hating arrogant people and no need for it, and that being arrogant is rude? Well guess what, you fit that same description perfectly. You were already on that BOZO list years before I came here.
Now go ahead and work up your condescending reply as to why I'm wrong and you're right, blah, blah, blah. Have fun. -
Not to worry. Itunes and the recording industry are planning to have
all music mastered to sound good in low bitrates coming from an
IPOD on cheap headphones. Hi-res, CD and Vinyl are all dead.
Long live crappy recordings.
Seriously, how many GOOD recordings have you heard come out in
the last few years?"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
There are a lot of great sounding recordings. Some maybe don't have a ton of dynamic range, mostly if you listen to rock/metal but just because an album is a victim of the loudness wars doesn't mean it sounds bad, just maybe not as lively as it could have. That's just my opinion.sucks2beme wrote: »Seriously, how many GOOD recordings have you heard come out in the last few years?
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.
And just like that....all credibility gone...
Not even the most die-hard of all vinyl fans would make such a silly statement.
As tonyb has been noted to say here a time or two, "If it blows your sack back, go for it!" I agree, and I enjoy a good vinyl listening session from time-to-time, as long as someone else is doing the heavy lifting. In the same way that I can hardly stand to sit through live TV without being able to FF through the commercials, I can't even imagine myself attempting to do the whole vinyl/turntable thing. Not a chance!
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different strokes. Sometimes I have to remember not everyone here is as affected by the rabbit hole, because $2,500-5,000 is not anywhere near reasonable to my budget.I'm sure you'll be rolling in the dough if it ever happens.
If you want to hear digital done right for a reasonable price, get your ears on a Hugo someday. You might rethink investing all that time and effort into a vinyl rig.
Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
You guys are all just pissin' in the wind on this one. Who gives a rats behind how you enjoy your music, as long as you do. Audio is about musical enjoyment, how you get there is irrelevant.
Chops,
Chill out some man, nobody is calling your baby ugly or stealing your last Snickers bar. F1NUT, along with many here, including myself, are opinionated is all.....as you are too. Big deal if those opinions don't always match up. That's what audio forums are about, sharing experiences and opinions.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
teekay0007 wrote: »I have vinyl from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's, brand new, everything from classical to jazz to rock to blues, and not a single one of them has a single tick or pop on them.
And just like that....all credibility gone... Not even the most die-hard of all vinyl fans would make such a silly statement.
And just like that, I don't care what you think.
All of the records I have were either bought new by my father or one of my brothers. They were only played a few times, recorded to tape, then put away. Now that new tape is scarce, I can't exactly record them, nor do I need to because I have most of those tapes as well.
In essence, all of those LP's are still basically new. The few of them that "did" have some ticks or pops on them no longer do because I used the wood glue treatment on them to remove just about everything off of them, hence why NONE of my records have ticks or pops on them.
If that's too much for you to understand to the point of calling someone you don't even know a liar, then so be it. I have no earthly use for you either. -
Who gives a rats behind how you enjoy your music, as long as you do. Audio is about musical enjoyment, how you get there is irrelevant.
Exactly. I never said that digital sucked. I just said that I prefer the sound of vinyl. I've got some very early CD's from the early 80's that actually sound almost analog. I also have CD's from last year that sound like total crap. However, vinyl seems to be a lot more of a constant in sound quality throughout the years.Chops,
Chill out some man, nobody is calling your baby ugly or stealing your last Snickers bar. F1NUT, along with many here, including myself, are opinionated is all.....as you are too. Big deal if those opinions don't always match up. That's what audio forums are about, sharing experiences and opinions.
It's not about the opinions, it's about the arrogance and condescending remarks all the time. Nobody needs that tripe. It's uncalled for and I simply won't put up for it.
The thing is, that's exactly what this forum is known for on other forums across the net, and it all seems to stem from him and his poor choice of words. If you or the moderators/administrators have issues with it, then maybe you should be talking to him, not the "new guy" trying to get along.
Also, please notice that when teekay comes on here and calls me a lair, guess who comes on here later and "Likes" his post... Imagine that. Typical. -
Christ sakes people.....go outside.....read a book.....paint a pretty picture
All threads lead to anger.
Where’s the KABOOM?!?! There’s supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!! -
This forum is all about challenging your mindset In order to achieve better results. .
Well said Skip. Then again audio in general is about challenging yourself to achieve better results. Takes an open mind though and a willingness to experiment. If that journey suits you, if not and your happy where your at, rock it baby and chill.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Anaheim Hills CA,
HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30
2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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