Does high quality digital cables matter?
Comments
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DarqueKnight wrote: »Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have no real interest in stereophonic reproduction systems. They consider them fundamentally flawed and inferior to monophonic systems. That is why the vast majority of their audio tests were/are done in mono.
The "experienced listeners" mentioned by Olive were "experienced" in listening to pre-recorded music, but were not trained and experienced in evaluating the performance aspects of a stereophonic sound field.
I/we have discussed the Olive and Toole tests extensively on this forum:
Stupid-things-you-hear-from-the-DBT-Null-test-crowd....
The point that the cable difference jihadists miss is that any stereo equipment test must be done within the context of stereophonic performance. Just listening for some vaguely defined or undefined "difference" is not appropriate testing methodology for stereo systems.
Most people who own and listen to stereo systems don't know anything about image weight, sound stage dimensions, layering, or articulation. Most people can't even tell you why a stereo system has two speakers.
Thank you Ray for pointing these facts out. I meant to do this, and completely forgot about it.
Also, thank you for the sexual comparisons analogy. Seems like a good one to me.
finally, I find it funny that Habanero Monk is apparently refusing to talk to anyone that won't take time out of their busy schedule, spend more an an airline ticket than possibly they did on their ethernet cable, and put up with listening to **music from a computer system**????(that no one involved in the experiment has ever heard) to compare "his" cable to any that we would like.
What else do we need setup to meet Habanero Monks skewed conditions?
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
The whole cable debate thing, as tiring and silly as it is, comes down to always inexperience vs experience. There exists some in life who can't tie their shoes without a road map. If this happens...you must do that. If you use xyz cable, you must hear this. If you don't, then your missing something...or nothing at all. They rely on others opinions to justify their own. No independent thought, no experience....simple wolf pack mentality without ever being a wolf.
Can't speak for everyone, but myself....when someone tells me this car is better than that one, that lawnmower kicks butt over all others, or xyz cable sounds 5 times better than other cables, I have to prove that to myself with a little experience with said product. I don't blindly take what anyone says as gospel.
If you can't hear a difference, that's all well and good, but don't pretend because you can't, nobody else should either. That's what always happens in cable threads. Those with no experience trying to justify why they don't have any....instead of simply getting some.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
No you wouldn't, otherwise you wouldn't conveniently ignore such tests that I and others have referenced. As I said, whenever a fair blind test is passed by a trained listener, it is rationalized away as "luck".
I won't ignore them if they actually involve listening tests of cables. You're really reaching... -
If you can't hear a difference, that's all well and good, but don't pretend because you can't, nobody else should either. That's what always happens in cable threads. Those with no experience trying to justify why they don't have any....instead of simply getting some.
When it comes to Ethernet I'm saying that you can't Tony. I have enough experience to put $1600 up. How much experience to you have to take it from me? -
I won't ignore them if they actually involve listening tests of cables.
OK, you can start with some of the original studies by AT&T Bell Laboratories on phone line cables. AT&T, and other telecommunications companies, have spent billions on audio cable research, and this was for band-limited monophonic signals. What scientific basis is there for thinking that a wide-band stereophonic signal would not exhibit audible differences when transported through different cables?You're really reaching...
No, I am listening, experimenting, offering scientific explanations for what I hear or don't hear, and publishing my results, here, and elsewhere.
Since all you are offering is your opinion, I would say that you are the one reaching.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
So again, what cables do you use---and if they're anything but the cheapest available, wouldn't buying anything better be contradictory to your assertions?
Here's the funny thing on this topic; though I've met many people that don't believe cables change anything (and that's fine), none of them used the 99 cent IC's that came with their components. So, my question is why not? If cable is cable, why don't you use the "cheapies" provided with components?
Climb out of the "box" and experiment. If I do a cable change, and something doesn't sound right, that cable has to go; expensive or inexpensive---it has to go. Now you may call that foolish and "voo-doo" but at the end of the day, I don't care what you think--my dime, my system, my foolishness, right?
It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me how you cable your system, coat hangers or $25k IC's---because that's your decision.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
heck... maybe I should drive down and be the referee.
That would be great. I wouldn't mind having someone watching the dice when ZLTFUL indicates to roll. I am considering screen casting this also. -
it would be a 45 minute flight.... barely time for 6 vodka tonics....Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
it would be a 45 minute flight.... barely time for 6 vodka tonics....
If you are coming out with me as part of your company you better round it up to 9 -
Your arguments are valid for simple computer data transfer, however....we don't listen to data on a screen.
Actually, we do...transferring and viewing computer data as 1's and 0's is "easier" for a cable than for the same cable to transmit music as 1's and 0's.
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. -
Bingo....his assertions work well for computers....not so much for sound. Which is my assertion....they are 2 different animals.
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. -
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!
The time relationships in a digital music signal are more complex than those of an "ordinary" data stream. Digital cables and connectors can have a detrimental effect on a signal's time relationships (jitter). Low quality digital cables can amplify the jitter effects produced by source components and DACs.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
As I mentioned earlier, there are anecdotal reports of changing Ethernet cables, and perceiving an improvement in sound. Whether true or not I don't know, but I now keep an open mind on anything audio related. Anyway, I was just reading a thread on another forum where some are saying music files from direct attached USB drives sound better than from a NAS drive over Ethernet. What is the difference? The network and it's associated cabling.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?
It may seem funny to you, but it is a fact. If you read page 2 and my reply there, here is an example that shows it is a fact. Did you happen to not read the rest of the post? Or did you simply dismiss it?:Exactly Tony. transferring and viewing computer data as 1's and 0's is "easier" for a cable than for the same cable to transmit music as 1's and 0's.
As proof, I will offer up this: A couple years ago I bought some Belden solid copper core Cat 5e ethernet cable along with RJ45 ends to install onto the ends. I also bought some RJ45 crimpers costing $75.00 (NOT cheapies). I built the Ethernet cable and hooked it up to my router to transmit my online service to my compueter (I now use wireless). The cable worked fine. tranmitted data with no hiccups.
I then hooked the same DIY ethernet cable up to my modified Denon DVD-1920 DVD/SACD player, which I installed an RJ45 output jack into and the other end hooked up to my (at the time newly built) DAC, also with an RJ45 input jack to transmit thepure DSD signalbetween the two.
The result was that while the DIY ethernet cable worked between the my router and computer without hiccups, te same cable did not work between my modified DVD-1920 and DIY DAC. The data digital signal was not passed accurately enough between the Denon player and DAC (music). The digital data signal was passed between the router and computer with "seemingly" no problems.
So, if they are just 1's and 0's and "just a digital data signal" why would one digital data signal work (between the router and computer, but not work between the Denon DVD-1920 and my DIY DAC?
Answer: there's a lot more going on with 1's and 0's than what HabiMonk and other scoffers are admitting to and/or realise.
Edit: I should point out that the same RJ45 jacks I initially installed in the Denon DVD-1920 and the DIY DAC are the same ones I used with a different ethernet cable and worked perfectly. Meaning the RJ45 jacks on the player/DAC were NOT the problem. It was the ethernet cable that was the problem and went away after switching to this cable: http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_cable.html
Although I now use a modified Denon DVD-5910 as my DSD output player to my DAC.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Fortunately I am going to be able to offer to setup a well structured A/B SBT at any event with 100% confidence of zero participation.
And yet, when suggested that you come to Polkfest, you side step, dance a jig and flat out balk. Too funny.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!
Obviously, you do not understand digital signals (at least from a music point-of-view). Go back and read this entire thread, then please come back and talk.
I believe it is yourself that has a "flat earth" view and are using projection to cope with it.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Habanero Monk wrote: »When it comes to Ethernet I'm saying that you can't Tony. I have enough experience to put $1600 up. How much experience to you have to take it from me?
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
And yet, when suggested that you come to Polkfest, you side step, dance a jig and flat out balk. Too funny.
So you aren't happy that I have a potential date with ZLTFUL? So ideas on how it would work in a listening environment that isn't yours, one that you aren't familiar with.
You don't see any downside to your ability in that scenario to discriminate? -
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?
I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. That is how I'm setup. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind. -
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?
I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind and very well may do that for my audio interface. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. That is how I'm setup. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind.
Yes you have, but you clearly stated the 40 bucks is a non issue for you which suggests you are unwilling to part with anymore to find out. Which in my opinion is exactly why those who say cables don't matter are the ones trying to justify themselves not spending more money.
I have no experience with Ethernet, none. Others on here do so I would take their advice over someone with only a one cable opinion. Does that make sense to you ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Yes you have, but you clearly stated the 40 bucks is a non issue for you which suggests you are unwilling to part with anymore to find out. Which in my opinion is exactly why those who say cables don't matter are the ones trying to justify themselves not spending more money.
I have no experience with Ethernet, none. Others on here do so I would take their advice over someone with only a one cable opinion. Does that make sense to you ?
I think you are speaking in general but are you saying something about the AQ USB cable I mentioned?
Mantis made a really salient point early in thread about when a digital cable does it's job there is no more to do. I'm not advocating the cheapest $0.99 IC a person can find.
I'm sure there are even IT guys that would laugh at a $13 patch cord from BJC. I know how data networks operate. I fully standby my statement that with a correctly functioning (i.e. meets spec) Ethernet cable you can't tell the difference. So in that instance more money is not going to get you more performance.
Just waiting to hear back from ZLTFUL about what he meant on 3 cables instead of two. If just saying same or different 3 cables takes him from a 50/50 chance at being right about a simple change up to 66%. If it was 10 network interfaces it would be a 90% chance in his favor that something changed.
Now it it's tell me if what is currently playing is A/B/C then that is another matter entirely. Just waiting for clarification so we can move on to next steps. Looking to close the loop and get air fare ASAP. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I'm not advocating the cheapest $0.99 IC a person can find.
If cables don't matter, why would you not advocate this.
On a lighter note, the cheapest $0.99 IC I've been able to find cost $0.99:)Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
If cables don't matter, why would you not advocate this.
On a lighter note, the cheapest $0.99 IC I've been able to find cost $0.99:)
I didn't say cables don't matter. Jeez...
In the context off CAT6 cables it is OBVIOUS cables matter. All the testing BJC did shows a ton of cables failing even though they advertise CAT6.
I'm saying after you have, lets say a 6 ft patch cable, that passes NEXT/FEXT (near and far end cross talk), inter-pair skew, round trip latency (delay) and the thing is 25% over tolerance, what else is there to do? -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I didn't say cables don't matter. Jeez...
I guess I'm missing something here. What's the point of the big blind A/B/C test then?Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden -
Since this is a contrived test it will not prove anything. If ZLTFUL is able to identify the cables then we have a piece of data, but if not then we are still at ground zero with no data.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
It isn't that difficult. 3 different "levels" of cable connected to 3 identical NICs. Plain and simple.
Your BJC, my Cat5 Belkin and my "high dollar" Cat6 cable.
We make some baseline comparisons to "get my bearings" and then I tell you, out of 30 runs if it is A, B or C. (I am upping it to 30 to give each cable a "fair shake".)
I am allowed to take notes on each of the baselines and am able to take up to 3 complete albums per cable to generate the baseline.
My proposal of 3 cables was simply to lower the chances of me simply guessing correctly. Taking my chances of "guessing" from 50/50 to a 33.333333...% chance of simply guessing right. In reality, I am weighting the test in your favor. Not sure why that doesn't appeal to you.
I was just establishing that you are indeed going to tell me A/B/C. So you are going to stone cold tell me which is which when the dice is rolled.
So on a six sided dice: A= 1-2 B=3-4 C=5-6. You obviously don't know the result you just tell me to make the roll. It will be change, no change. You tell me if its same or different and if different then which.
I have an AMD based mainboard with three PCIe connectors so 3 cards shouldn't be a problem.
How long to do you want to take? I was thinking 1 day. I come in on a Friday and out again on a Saturday. My other concern is if it's a day of thunder storms like yesterday here. Not much one can do about that though it is what it is. -
I guess I'm missing something here. What's the point of the big blind A/B/C test then?
Testing a claim that even though an Ethernet cable passes CAT6 spec that there are still audible improvements to be gained in a typical computer networked environment.
There are $70-$500 Ethernet cables out there.
In the case of Ethernet they do matter. If you have a cable that has skew in the 100ns you could certainly have some performance issues. -
Since this is a contrived test it will not prove anything. If ZLTFUL is able to identify the cables then we have a piece of data, but if not then we are still at ground zero with no data.
If ZLTFUL can't hit the 86% mark on what cable the dice indicate that is indeed data. I still don't know what possible, real world based objection you could have.
Given that typical GB Ethernet runs can certify out to 20 meters the lengths we are talking about are trivial.
Plan also on making sure the same nic silicon is used.
This discussion has been closed.