Does high quality digital cables matter?
Comments
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I think it's now onto the parameters of the challenge.
As I previously posted the testing rig and haven't heard any merit-able objection lets lock that into place.
Next steps are who holds onto the $1600. I will also front $1600 to said person.If you hit your 13 out of 15 you can choose either the DAC or the check. Two cashiers checks made payable to cash to be held.
Next step is Air Fair. Losing party should comp. I'll pay for incidentals (hotel, car, meals). It's 8 1/2 hours drive so plane trip it is for me.
Lets start the due diligence with the above. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »No, I will bring a BJC cable because it will come with a certificate. You can send what ever cable you desire to Kurt for validation per his generous offer. Trying to keep things as transparent as possible.
But literally, your whole argument is that if a cable meets spec, then there is no discernible difference in how it sounds and that I would not be able to tell you the difference between those 2 cables when you switched them...
But I am still happy to participate in your clearly contrived and weighted "experiment". But I will also provide 2 cable examples to further eliminate the possibility of just getting lucky. 3 cables significantly lower the chance of "guessing" correctly and it isn't that difficult to add 3 identical NICs."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Classy...just what I'd expect here.
I assume this was an attempt at sarcasm alluding to a general lack of class on this forum. In that case, why is a classy guy such as yourself here?But it's not like a cable debate at all. "Mike" was actually able to demonstrate his claim, rather that just make a bunch of anecdotal statements.
Audiophiles have actually been able to demonstrate their claims, but they are always rationalized away, as they were by you and others in this thread:
Dumb-things-you-ve-heard-from-audiophiles-
In summary:
1. Naysayer claim: There are no measurable differences in cables. When a measurable difference is shown, the argument switches to:
2. Naysayer claim: OK, there are measurable differences in cables, but the differences are inaudible. When the differences are shown to be within the range of human perception, the argument switches to:
3. Naysayer claim: OK, the differences are within the range of human perception, but you didn't validate it with a blind test. When the differences are identified 10 out of 10 times, the argument switches to:
4. Naysayer claim: OK, the differences were identified in a blind test, but this was just luck, because I have never heard a difference in cables and I don't believe anyone else can either.
The point is, asking someone to prove that they hear something that you don't, or can't, is like a virgin asking a sexually experienced person to prove some aspect of human sexuality. No matter what the sexually experienced person demonstrates in clinical trials, the virgin still does not have a framework of personal experience to make the results meaningful to them. For sensory experiences, what someone else perceives can only be used as an example of what you might perceive.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
But literally, your whole argument is that if a cable meets spec, then there is no discernible difference in how it sounds and that I would not be able to tell you the difference between those 2 cables when you switched them...
But I am still happy to participate in your clearly contrived and weighted "experiment". But I will also provide 2 cable examples to further eliminate the possibility of just getting lucky. 3 cables significantly lower the chance of "guessing" correctly and it isn't that difficult to add 3 identical NICs.
There are two claims being made:
1. I am saying that a competent BJC Certified CAT6 cable is something you will not be able to distinguish from. I've been saying BJC since the get go.
2. You can hear the difference by providing your Ethernet cable of choice with the caveat you provide it for certification by Kurt.
You will have to explain what is contrived as using a BJC CAT6 certified cable as a control. I don't need to know your choice of B cable before hand. Only that you had it certified. I don't care to know the variable cable beyond that.
So you want three NIC's. Just for clarification: now you just went from simple "Is there a difference?" to, in gambling (craps table) parlance, rolling a hard 10.
So you are going to tell me which exact cable is playing? Sorry devil is in the details... Just want to have transparency throughout.
Will the AQ Forest USB be acceptable? Can you give me an idea as to cable lengths to accommodate setup? -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I assume this was an attempt at sarcasm alluding to a general lack of class on this forum. In that case, why is a classy guy such as yourself here?
Entertainment.3. Naysayer claim: OK, the differences are within the range of human perception, but you didn't validate it with a blind test. When the differences are identified 10 out of 10 times, the argument switches to:
4. Naysayer claim: OK, the differences were identified in a blind test, but this was just luck, because I have never heard a difference in cables and I don't believe anyone else can either.
Just making stuff up now? I'd love to see the results of that blind test. -
Entertainment.
Yes. Very entertaining:
Dumb-things-you-ve-heard-from-audiophiles-...-Post 272Just making stuff up now?
Nope. That is your standard MO:
Dumb-things-you-ve-heard-from-audiophiles-...Post 240I'd love to see the results of that blind test.
No you wouldn't, otherwise you wouldn't conveniently ignore such tests that I and others have referenced. As I said, whenever a fair blind test is passed by a trained listener, it is rationalized away as "luck".Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have no real interest in stereophonic reproduction systems. They consider them fundamentally flawed and inferior to monophonic systems. That is why the vast majority of their audio tests were/are done in mono.
The "experienced listeners" mentioned by Olive were "experienced" in listening to pre-recorded music, but were not trained and experienced in evaluating the performance aspects of a stereophonic sound field.
I/we have discussed the Olive and Toole tests extensively on this forum:
Stupid-things-you-hear-from-the-DBT-Null-test-crowd....
The point that the cable difference jihadists miss is that any stereo equipment test must be done within the context of stereophonic performance. Just listening for some vaguely defined or undefined "difference" is not appropriate testing methodology for stereo systems.
Most people who own and listen to stereo systems don't know anything about image weight, sound stage dimensions, layering, or articulation. Most people can't even tell you why a stereo system has two speakers.
Thank you Ray for pointing these facts out. I meant to do this, and completely forgot about it.
Also, thank you for the sexual comparisons analogy. Seems like a good one to me.
finally, I find it funny that Habanero Monk is apparently refusing to talk to anyone that won't take time out of their busy schedule, spend more an an airline ticket than possibly they did on their ethernet cable, and put up with listening to **music from a computer system**????(that no one involved in the experiment has ever heard) to compare "his" cable to any that we would like.
What else do we need setup to meet Habanero Monks skewed conditions?
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
The whole cable debate thing, as tiring and silly as it is, comes down to always inexperience vs experience. There exists some in life who can't tie their shoes without a road map. If this happens...you must do that. If you use xyz cable, you must hear this. If you don't, then your missing something...or nothing at all. They rely on others opinions to justify their own. No independent thought, no experience....simple wolf pack mentality without ever being a wolf.
Can't speak for everyone, but myself....when someone tells me this car is better than that one, that lawnmower kicks butt over all others, or xyz cable sounds 5 times better than other cables, I have to prove that to myself with a little experience with said product. I don't blindly take what anyone says as gospel.
If you can't hear a difference, that's all well and good, but don't pretend because you can't, nobody else should either. That's what always happens in cable threads. Those with no experience trying to justify why they don't have any....instead of simply getting some.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
No you wouldn't, otherwise you wouldn't conveniently ignore such tests that I and others have referenced. As I said, whenever a fair blind test is passed by a trained listener, it is rationalized away as "luck".
I won't ignore them if they actually involve listening tests of cables. You're really reaching... -
If you can't hear a difference, that's all well and good, but don't pretend because you can't, nobody else should either. That's what always happens in cable threads. Those with no experience trying to justify why they don't have any....instead of simply getting some.
When it comes to Ethernet I'm saying that you can't Tony. I have enough experience to put $1600 up. How much experience to you have to take it from me? -
I won't ignore them if they actually involve listening tests of cables.
OK, you can start with some of the original studies by AT&T Bell Laboratories on phone line cables. AT&T, and other telecommunications companies, have spent billions on audio cable research, and this was for band-limited monophonic signals. What scientific basis is there for thinking that a wide-band stereophonic signal would not exhibit audible differences when transported through different cables?You're really reaching...
No, I am listening, experimenting, offering scientific explanations for what I hear or don't hear, and publishing my results, here, and elsewhere.
Since all you are offering is your opinion, I would say that you are the one reaching.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
So again, what cables do you use---and if they're anything but the cheapest available, wouldn't buying anything better be contradictory to your assertions?
Here's the funny thing on this topic; though I've met many people that don't believe cables change anything (and that's fine), none of them used the 99 cent IC's that came with their components. So, my question is why not? If cable is cable, why don't you use the "cheapies" provided with components?
Climb out of the "box" and experiment. If I do a cable change, and something doesn't sound right, that cable has to go; expensive or inexpensive---it has to go. Now you may call that foolish and "voo-doo" but at the end of the day, I don't care what you think--my dime, my system, my foolishness, right?
It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me how you cable your system, coat hangers or $25k IC's---because that's your decision.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
heck... maybe I should drive down and be the referee.
That would be great. I wouldn't mind having someone watching the dice when ZLTFUL indicates to roll. I am considering screen casting this also. -
it would be a 45 minute flight.... barely time for 6 vodka tonics....Polk Lsi9
N.E.W. A-20 class A 20W
NAD 1020 completely refurbished
Keces DA-131 mk.II
Analysis Plus Copper Oval, Douglass, Morrow SUB3, Huffman Digital
Paradigm DSP-3100 v.2 -
it would be a 45 minute flight.... barely time for 6 vodka tonics....
If you are coming out with me as part of your company you better round it up to 9 -
Your arguments are valid for simple computer data transfer, however....we don't listen to data on a screen.
Actually, we do...transferring and viewing computer data as 1's and 0's is "easier" for a cable than for the same cable to transmit music as 1's and 0's.
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. -
Bingo....his assertions work well for computers....not so much for sound. Which is my assertion....they are 2 different animals.
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. -
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!
The time relationships in a digital music signal are more complex than those of an "ordinary" data stream. Digital cables and connectors can have a detrimental effect on a signal's time relationships (jitter). Low quality digital cables can amplify the jitter effects produced by source components and DACs.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
As I mentioned earlier, there are anecdotal reports of changing Ethernet cables, and perceiving an improvement in sound. Whether true or not I don't know, but I now keep an open mind on anything audio related. Anyway, I was just reading a thread on another forum where some are saying music files from direct attached USB drives sound better than from a NAS drive over Ethernet. What is the difference? The network and it's associated cabling.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. Let me guess...the world is flat too?
It may seem funny to you, but it is a fact. If you read page 2 and my reply there, here is an example that shows it is a fact. Did you happen to not read the rest of the post? Or did you simply dismiss it?:Exactly Tony. transferring and viewing computer data as 1's and 0's is "easier" for a cable than for the same cable to transmit music as 1's and 0's.
As proof, I will offer up this: A couple years ago I bought some Belden solid copper core Cat 5e ethernet cable along with RJ45 ends to install onto the ends. I also bought some RJ45 crimpers costing $75.00 (NOT cheapies). I built the Ethernet cable and hooked it up to my router to transmit my online service to my compueter (I now use wireless). The cable worked fine. tranmitted data with no hiccups.
I then hooked the same DIY ethernet cable up to my modified Denon DVD-1920 DVD/SACD player, which I installed an RJ45 output jack into and the other end hooked up to my (at the time newly built) DAC, also with an RJ45 input jack to transmit thepure DSD signalbetween the two.
The result was that while the DIY ethernet cable worked between the my router and computer without hiccups, te same cable did not work between my modified DVD-1920 and DIY DAC. The data digital signal was not passed accurately enough between the Denon player and DAC (music). The digital data signal was passed between the router and computer with "seemingly" no problems.
So, if they are just 1's and 0's and "just a digital data signal" why would one digital data signal work (between the router and computer, but not work between the Denon DVD-1920 and my DIY DAC?
Answer: there's a lot more going on with 1's and 0's than what HabiMonk and other scoffers are admitting to and/or realise.
Edit: I should point out that the same RJ45 jacks I initially installed in the Denon DVD-1920 and the DIY DAC are the same ones I used with a different ethernet cable and worked perfectly. Meaning the RJ45 jacks on the player/DAC were NOT the problem. It was the ethernet cable that was the problem and went away after switching to this cable: http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_cable.html
Although I now use a modified Denon DVD-5910 as my DSD output player to my DAC.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Habanero Monk wrote: »Fortunately I am going to be able to offer to setup a well structured A/B SBT at any event with 100% confidence of zero participation.
And yet, when suggested that you come to Polkfest, you side step, dance a jig and flat out balk. Too funny.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
When sound is digital there's no difference between it and anything else digital. Once converted to analog, sure. But not one second before that. Don't be so fast to write off someone who understands digital signals and computer technology better than yourself. Likewise to the other poster!
Obviously, you do not understand digital signals (at least from a music point-of-view). Go back and read this entire thread, then please come back and talk.
I believe it is yourself that has a "flat earth" view and are using projection to cope with it.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Habanero Monk wrote: »When it comes to Ethernet I'm saying that you can't Tony. I have enough experience to put $1600 up. How much experience to you have to take it from me?
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
And yet, when suggested that you come to Polkfest, you side step, dance a jig and flat out balk. Too funny.
So you aren't happy that I have a potential date with ZLTFUL? So ideas on how it would work in a listening environment that isn't yours, one that you aren't familiar with.
You don't see any downside to your ability in that scenario to discriminate? -
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?
I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. That is how I'm setup. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind. -
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
None with Ethernet because I don't use them. Never claimed to have experience with Ethernet. But other digital cables transferring 1's and 0's I do and that's the basis of my opinions. Whats the basis of yours ?
I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind and very well may do that for my audio interface. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I've clearly been talking about Ethernet transported audio. That is how I'm setup. I didn't say anything about SP/DIF or USB.
Honestly the cost of the AQ USB cables are really a non-issue for me personally. I could see spending $40 for piece of mind.
Yes you have, but you clearly stated the 40 bucks is a non issue for you which suggests you are unwilling to part with anymore to find out. Which in my opinion is exactly why those who say cables don't matter are the ones trying to justify themselves not spending more money.
I have no experience with Ethernet, none. Others on here do so I would take their advice over someone with only a one cable opinion. Does that make sense to you ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Yes you have, but you clearly stated the 40 bucks is a non issue for you which suggests you are unwilling to part with anymore to find out. Which in my opinion is exactly why those who say cables don't matter are the ones trying to justify themselves not spending more money.
I have no experience with Ethernet, none. Others on here do so I would take their advice over someone with only a one cable opinion. Does that make sense to you ?
I think you are speaking in general but are you saying something about the AQ USB cable I mentioned?
Mantis made a really salient point early in thread about when a digital cable does it's job there is no more to do. I'm not advocating the cheapest $0.99 IC a person can find.
I'm sure there are even IT guys that would laugh at a $13 patch cord from BJC. I know how data networks operate. I fully standby my statement that with a correctly functioning (i.e. meets spec) Ethernet cable you can't tell the difference. So in that instance more money is not going to get you more performance.
Just waiting to hear back from ZLTFUL about what he meant on 3 cables instead of two. If just saying same or different 3 cables takes him from a 50/50 chance at being right about a simple change up to 66%. If it was 10 network interfaces it would be a 90% chance in his favor that something changed.
Now it it's tell me if what is currently playing is A/B/C then that is another matter entirely. Just waiting for clarification so we can move on to next steps. Looking to close the loop and get air fare ASAP. -
Habanero Monk wrote: »I'm not advocating the cheapest $0.99 IC a person can find.
If cables don't matter, why would you not advocate this.
On a lighter note, the cheapest $0.99 IC I've been able to find cost $0.99:)Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
This discussion has been closed.