Does high quality digital cables matter?

F1nut

Do your own research.

Once again, you prove that you're only purpose here is to troll. Must be tough trying to find your manhood at your age.

Habanero Monk

Funny coming from a guy that can only take the Pepsi challenge if using his own dishware ;-) If you know what I mean.

ken brydson

Keiko wrote: »

Attachment not found.

If it's mixed with rum I don't care....

ken brydson

Keiko wrote: »

Ken, is there a difference between dark rum and clear rum? Bacardi or Captain Morgan?

I think my cables sound better when I drink rum vs beer. YMMV

I go for the cheap stuff Mike since I go thru so much of it, otherwise I'd be broke.:biggrin:

ken brydson

Keiko wrote: »

Me too! Can't afford to buy good gear and good booze. So I chose gear. Can't have our pie and eat it too, I suppose.

Love you brother...

headrott

Habanero Monk wrote: »

It's certainly not a 'fact'. Also some are claiming differences. I'm not testing cables. I'm testing claims. Discern the difference, and then form your opinion. I'm curious how this would work.

Heck if anyone is 90 minutes or so outside of Cinci it would be neat to test on their equipment.

I'm interested in the DSD player you are using. Yes.

How would you know if it's a fact or not? You cannot hear differences in cables, right? It is a very basic idea that to discern differences in anything (especially subtleties) one must be intimately familiar with that is being evaluated.

You are testing claims that cables make a difference, so in effect you are tesing cables. Although you are not testing cables yourself, because you cannot discern differences in them (you need others to do that for you.......shame really) you are essentially testing if there are differences in cables. I know the difference between what you think you are testing for and what people who are able to hear differences in cables are testing. I also have an opinion on it, which is why this discussion is taking place. I still claim that the inventors of stereophonic audio (Bell Laboratories) stated explicitly that blind tests should not be used to test high resolution stereophonic system (and were in fact designed to be used in testing monophonic, low resolution systems).

So, despite what Harmon Kardon and Floyd Toole think should be used to test sterophonic audio, they did not *invent* and design the original stereophonic sytsems, nor did they design the tests used to study them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm curious how this would work"?

I am using directly tapped (modified) DSD signals from a Denon DVD-5910 player.

teekay0007

headrott wrote: »

So, despite what Harmon Kardon and Floyd Toole think should be used to test sterophonic audio, they did not *invent* and design the original stereophonic sytsems, nor did they design the tests used to study them.

That has NOTHING to do with whether their opinions on how the testing should be done and how the current accepted norm of testing is lacking are valid or not.

tonyb

Dontcha just love cable debates ?

Not worth arguing about. Try some different cables in your system to your ears. If you can't hear a diiference, cool....rock what you have and let others who can discuss cables.

I always like the fact that some profess that once a cable does its job, nothing more can be done....transferring 1's and 0's from point A to point B.

Cars also transfer people from Point A to point B. A LEXUS does exactly the same thing as a Yugo in that regard. According to some, there should be no difference.....because they never drove anything else other than a Yugo.

Habanero Monk

headrott wrote: »

How would you know if it's a fact or not? You cannot hear differences in cables, right? It is a very basic idea that to discern differences in anything (especially subtleties) one must be intimately familiar with that is being evaluated.

Where did I say that I could or couldn't hear 'differences'? What I am saying is: When it comes to network delivered audio, Ethernet, 802.11x, I'm saying you can not tell me which is a BJC and which is any other high end CAT5/6/7 cable you want to bring. I am saying, I know how packet driven networks work. I know how computers work. I am saying in this instance you are going to fail utterly and miserably. So much that we should put some money up.

My faith in knowledge about how this stuff actually works and your faith in your ears only.

headrott wrote: »

You are testing claims that cables make a difference, so in effect you are tesing cables.

No, I am testing your ability to DISCERN or not DISCERN a change. This can even be experimented by not actually changing the cable at all in (in that the roll of a dice indicates no change). I'm not saying there isn't a difference. I'm saying you can not follow the ball under the cup.

headrott wrote: »

So, despite what Harmon Kardon and Floyd Toole think should be used to test sterophonic audio, they did not *invent* and design the original stereophonic sytsems, nor did they design the tests used to study them.

Dear god....

headrott wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "I'm curious how this would work"?

I am using directly tapped (modified) DSD signals from a Denon DVD-5910 player.

I'm curios where the CATX cable comes into play.

tonyb

So what your saying is you know computers....and your equating computers on the same plane as audio. Do we need to say more ?

Habanero Monk

tonyb wrote: »

So what your saying is you know computers....and your equating computers on the same plane as audio. Do we need to say more ?

Since it's established we are talking computers as part of the audio chain connected by Ethernet cable:

I am saying I know how audio his handled in a compute environment. I'm saying I'm willing to bet you the cost of a DAC you can't follow the ball under the cup routine when one Ethernet cable is used vs another.

My proposed test rig would be:

A computer with two identical network cards. One card has what ever passes spec CAT5/6/7 you want (I would assume AQ would pass testing or we could take Kurt up on his offer to send one of your choice for validation) and one of his cables or other certified CAT6. You bring your cable and I'll bring mine.

Set card A up with static ip, as example, 192.168.10.20/24, card B s 192.168.10.21/24, NAS as 192.168.10.22/24.

Setup as a typical network: NAS> GB Switch> Card A / Card B (identical cards)>USB to DAC.

I would bring a Windows PC with fresh install of Win 7 X64.

Media Monkey / Foobar / JRiver with WASAPI or ASIO. Your choice. We can discuss play list and how you want them setup.

Use a Wyred DAC ~$1600 ( let me know if Wyred is unacceptable ). Connected via your choice of USB cable.

You indicate to me when to roll the dice. I would simply enable or disable a network interface in Windows(or not). I wouldn't be in the room to do this. Just setup RDP and I would control from a 3rd network controller on a separate physical network (directly cabled most likely for efficiency of setup) so no network bandwidth taken up on the Card A / Card B / NAS segment.

1 day

RDP only requires 5.6Kpbs (same as old 56k dial up modem speeds) for trivial screen sharing tasks.

Loser purchases the DAC for the winning party. I could be in Chicago in ~ 4 hours. Your system. 15 rolls of the dice. Even # Card A odd # card B. Hit 13 out of 15 (86%). I'm not even asking you hit an A letter grade. Initial roll will determine if Card A or B starts the evaluation session.

Let me know. I can get a contract drawn up.

tonyb

LOL.....useless dribble pal. What if I said I heard a difference and you said you didn't, what then ? We split a dac ?? LOL

Look, it's ok if you can't hear a difference, in any cable for that matter. Life won't end. So why participate in cable threads when it's clear you have no vested interest ? A personal mission to enlighten us ?

Since you work with 'putters, obviously reading about how they work and actually having some experience applying that knowledge is 2 different animals. If you just read about cables both for or against without trying any others...as in experience, what you read is for naught then, no ?

Habanero Monk

tonyb wrote: »

LOL.....useless dribble pal. What if I said I heard a difference and you said you didn't, what then ? We split a dac ?? LOL

Look, it's ok if you can't hear a difference, in any cable for that matter. Life won't end. So why participate in cable threads when it's clear you have no vested interest ? A personal mission to enlighten us ?

Since you work with 'putters, obviously reading about how they work and actually having some experience applying that knowledge is 2 different animals. If you just read about cables both for or against without trying any others...as in experience, what you read is for naught then, no ?

I wouldn't be participating in the test as a listener. You said you can discern differences in Ethernet cables. So I'll pay you off with a $1600 DAC if you can.

You either can or you can not. Based on your conviction of your position it's an easy $1600 for you. I can always send the DAC back and give you $1600.

My vested interest is in showing people, rather publicly, that in this instance you are 100% in error of your understanding about how this works in regards to computer based networked audio.

Even if you decline my offer it still proves my point about your convictions. There is no downside for me other than you hitting it 13 out of 15.

BlueFox

I haven't done network streaming of music yet, so I can't say whether or not music sounds better with CAT5 or CAT7 cable, or higher quality versions of those cables. However, I am reading more and more anecdotal stories by people saying there is a difference in sound quality between Ethernet cables. Based on the fact every other type of cable in the audio chain makes a difference, I would not be surprised if the Ethernet cable also makes a difference. I will at least approach it with an open mind.

Habanero Monk

BlueFox wrote: »

I will at least approach it with an open mind.

If I was closed minded I wouldn't be making such a public, eat crow, offer.

teekay0007

tonyb wrote: »

I always like the fact that some profess that once a cable does its job, nothing more can be done....transferring 1's and 0's from point A to point B.

Cars also transfer people from Point A to point B. A LEXUS does exactly the same thing as a Yugo in that regard. According to some, there should be no difference.....because they never drove anything else other than a Yugo.

Tonyb, you usually make some pretty good sense, but you really missed it on that horse-poo analogy - unless your point was to make the Monk's point. The LEXUS (flashy, expensive cable) gets the people (digital data) from point A to point B as does the Yugo (basic, cheaper cable). And whether the people rode in the Lexus or the Yugo, there is no distinguishable difference in those people observed at point A or at point B.

Now, carry on. ;-)

ZLTFUL

teekay0007 wrote: »

Tonyb, you usually make some pretty good sense, but you really missed it on that horse-poo analogy - unless your point was to make the Monk's point. The LEXUS (flashy, expensive cable) gets the people (digital data) from point A to point B as does the Yugo (basic, cheaper cable). And whether the people rode in the Lexus or the Yugo, there is no distinguishable difference in those people observed at point A or at point B.

Now, carry on. ;-)

There sure is...because the people standing at point B watching the folks getting out of the Yugo will think "those people are idiots...Yugos are pieces of ****".

Habanero Monk

ZLTFUL wrote: »

There sure is...because the people standing at point B watching the folks getting out of the Yugo will think "those people are idiots...Yugos are pieces of ****".

In my challenge you won't see the car. You just know they have arrived and figure out by their standing around what car they traveled in.

You know the whole single blind thing.

dragon1952

I've got 25 ft runs of Belkin Cat5E and some other brand of CAT7 going to my PerfectWave bridge. I recently installed the CAT7 just on faith and didn't bother with A/B'ing, but based on this thread I've been switching them back and forth and I do hear a difference but not sure which I prefer at this point. I'll go more in depth with this experiment but based on just a few switches my initial impressions are the 5E might be a little more musical (toe-tapping) and the 7 might be cleaner, clearer with possibly a little better imaging and space? I need to do more swapping on a larger variety of music though.

BlueFox

Habanero Monk wrote: »

If I was closed minded I wouldn't be making such a public, eat crow, offer.

By open minded, I mean try some cables in your own system. Not some BS contrived test.

Habanero Monk

Feel free to point out any errors in either the test setup or the method.

The only error that is going to happen is that of the listener failing to follow the change up reliably.

Again systems are playing out of a buffer not directly off a cable. It's bunk and anyone that isn't doing in a manner I laid out isn't being honest with themselves.

I'm so open minded that I'm offering to pay off a member here to simply demonstrate their ability to discern one CAT6 from another CAT6 cable (that is they pass the 802.11 specification).

BlueFox

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Feel free to point out any errors in either the test setup or the method.

From my perspective, I listen to music in my living room with my gear. After some time I become familiar with how it sounds. Since I am familiar with it, when I make a change I can tell if something is different. Assuming the change does make a difference. Many times it does, but is subtle. Other times it is pretty obvious. However, in a strange location, with strange gear, I doubt if I could tell a difference unless it was blatantly obvious. At this point, my initial feeling is that the difference between Ethernet cables will vary from none to subtle. Which is why a contrived test for this is useless. Get familiar with your own gear, and try it yourself.

Side-note: I also had the same feeling about speaker jumpers, and was amazed at the difference when I upgraded the stock jumpers on my Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers to Shunyata jumpers. If that occurs with Ethernet cables I will be impressed. I love it when my preconceived ideas are proven wrong.

Habanero Monk

DSkip wrote: »

So the fact that my favorite speaker cables in my rig are $100/pair when I have several cables ranging from $400-$3k new doesn't mean anything because I didn't do it blind? C'mon man....

It's clear what class of cable we are talking about. Again it is a computer based audio playback system. Audio is being played back from a buffer.

A buffer that will request as needed data to fill it backup again.

In Media Monkey the buffer can be set up for WASAPI up to 20000 millsec or 20 seconds. This means that you can pull the fargin' network cable and STILL have the system play audio for 20 seconds. All computer based audio is buffered. Period.

Either you guys will get the significance at this point or you won't.

F1nut

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Feel free to point out any errors in either the test setup or the method.

You're not the first to come in here purposing the same type of challenge and I'm sure you won't be the last. Each has expected folks to travel to them. Of course, someone like you is banking that no one is going to spend the time and money traveling to where you are. It's a safe bet for you and just like your previous proposal when no one shows up you get to proclaim that no one had the balls to take your challenge. You think you've made a point when in reality all you've ended up with is a bag of false pride.

The only error that is going to happen is that of the listener failing to follow the change up reliably.

Talk about closed minded, talk about bias, talk about ignorance......yeah, that shoe fits you.

Again systems are playing out of a buffer not directly off a cable. It's bunk and anyone that isn't doing in a manner I laid out isn't being honest with themselves.

If there is a cable connected, it has an influence on what you hear. To believe otherwise is naive to say the least.

I'm so open minded that I'm offering to pay off a member here to simply demonstrate their ability to discern one CAT6 from another CAT6 cable (that is they pass the 802.11 specification).

If you really want folks to take your challenge, you do the traveling and come to Polkfest in the fall.

BlueFox

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Either you guys will get the significance at this point or you won't.

This goes both ways. You are trying to prove your hypothesis that Ethernet cables make no difference by expecting others to do your work. You have assumed it is impossible for these cables to affect audio quality, and are designing an experiment that, by the nature of its design, will prove your point. Not exactly the scientific method.

There are too many reports coming in claiming there is a difference. Your experiment needs to not rely on somebody's hearing, but on examining the packet as it leaves the storage device, and arrives at the player. The rise/fall of the signal needs to be measured to the thousandths or better, the timing of each bit needs to be similarly measured between each cable. Since a music file will not fit in a single Ethernet packet, the assembled file going to the file player needs to be similarly compared to the same file coming off the drive. Once you get some data then you can refine your hypothesis. Until then you just have a contrived BS test.

dragon1952

dragon1952 wrote: »

I've got 25 ft runs of Belkin Cat5E and some other brand of CAT7 going to my PerfectWave bridge. I recently installed the CAT7 just on faith and didn't bother with A/B'ing, but based on this thread I've been switching them back and forth and I do hear a difference but not sure which I prefer at this point. I'll go more in depth with this experiment but based on just a few switches my initial impressions are the 5E might be a little more musical (toe-tapping) and the 7 might be cleaner, clearer with possibly a little better imaging and space? I need to do more swapping on a larger variety of music though.

BTW, I'm using my PerfectWave directly to amp and the PerfectWave has a digital volume control so I can volume match exactly.

headrott

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Where did I say that I could or couldn't hear 'differences'? What I am saying is: When it comes to network delivered audio, Ethernet, 802.11x, I'm saying you can not tell me which is a BJC and which is any other high end CAT5/6/7 cable you want to bring. I am saying, I know how packet driven networks work. I know how computers work. I am saying in this instance you are going to fail utterly and miserably. So much that we should put some money up.

My faith in knowledge about how this stuff actually works and your faith in your ears only.

You didn't say whether you could or couldn't, but you didn't have to. It is obvious by your responses that:

1) You can't hear differences in cables
2) You haven't actually listened to different cables in a hi-fidelity system to hear the differences.

Either way, it is obvious you don't believe they make a differnce.

I am glad you know how (computer based) packet driven networks work, but do you know how digital cables work? That is from metallurgy, to shielding, to insulation, to termination? After all, that is what is in question here is the wire connecting a transport to a DAC correct? NOT connecting a computer to whatever...... If you think that we all use computers to listen to music (and that is your method), then I can see why you haven't heard differences in cables. To hear differences in systems, you need to be familiar with it's sound and to have a high resolution system.

You know how computers work. You don't understand how cables work. I do not use a computer to listen to music, so why would I be involved in a test that utilizes one. There is good reason for not using a computer as an audio system. A computer performs multiple tasks at a mediocre level. An hi-fidelity, high resolution stereophonic music system performs one task at a superior performance level. Please take a listen to one (an hi fidelity, high resolution sterophonic audio system) using different cables and then please come back to us with your new found knowledge.

Habanero Monk wrote: »

No, I am testing your ability to DISCERN or not DISCERN a change. This can even be experimented by not actually changing the cable at all in (in that the roll of a dice indicates no change). I'm not saying there isn't a difference. I'm saying you can not follow the ball under the cup.

Yes, you are testing the ability to discern a difference in what a person hears. But the items in question here are ethernet cables, right? So, you are testing if people can discern a difference in audio cables (a change in tonality, detail, clarity, soundstage, etc.).

No, this experiement cannot be conducted without changing cable *at all*. Why? Because we are listening to for differences in cables, of course. If there is no differences in cables (because the cables were not changed) then there would be no difference.

Now, if two cables have no discernable differences in their audio signatures, then yes, the experiment was a success. There was no discernable difference in the two cables. Also, the analogy of a ball under a cup is a poor one as it utilizes your eyes, not your ears for sensory input. We are not trying to follow a ball with our eyes, we are tring to discern a differences in two ethernet cables using our ears. Also, when the ball under the cap experiment trick is utilized, the ball eventually ends up moving at some point. In your example above saying that the experiment can be conducted without actually changing the cable, it is the equivalent of saying that the ball never moved from it's original location. These are two different training excercises to distingush (eyes and ears).

Habanero Monk wrote: »

Dear god.....

Other than making the air that transports the sound waves to our ears, the metals and other materials to make the cables; where does He fit into this?

[QUOTE=Habanero Monk;2045894I'm curios where the CATX cable comes into play.[/QUOTE]

The cat 5e cables taps the DSD signal at the stereo output from the DSD chip in the Denon DVD-5910 player. I used Belden cat 5e solid core cable to tap these points and send them to an RJ45 jack. I connec this RJ45 jack to another that I installed into my DAC and connect these with this cable: http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_cable.html

This was all documented on the forum previously.

headrott

Habanero Monk wrote: »

In my challenge you won't see the car. You just know they have arrived and figure out by their standing around what car they traveled in.

You know the whole single blind thing.

The problem with your reply to the analogy is that you assume that the "ride" in the car the "people" are taking has no affect on the people. What matters is the speed, comfort, and condition they arrived in. In the Yugo, the "people" arrived in a constricted (due to small space), uncomfortable (due to being thrown arround the inside of the car because it doesn't handle well), and bumpy (because the suspension sucks and the material used to make the car were adequate, but not exrodinary) Also, the speed at which they arrived was much slower than their friends travelling in the Lexus (but I prefer a BMW being used ) and this left them unhappy, short tempered, and "singing the blues").

Alternatively, the people who arrived in the Lexus (although, again I would use a BMW ) arrived in a very good mood since the car handling, suspension, materials used to make the "car", and space inside were much better and more adequate to what the "ride" gave them. These "people" arrived very quickly and happily. These people were so happy they "sang" joyously about their arrival.

Again, you need to think about it from the "travellers" perspective as well as the observers of the "travellers" in order to understand how cables work and why there can be differences in them. Until you can do that, you will always believe that all cables sound the same.

Good luck and happy listening.

tonyb

Maybe a better analogy would be me telling him how to set up a computer network system, never having done it before. How much weight would my opinion carry with him ? None....thats how much.

Same goes for cables. If you only have experience with X cables, your opinions on Y and Z cables is pretty much worthless.

Whats not sinking in is the fact that it is not up to us to distinguish, it's up to them. Only by experience can an opinion carry weight. If you try 3 different cables from 3 different price categories and still can't hear a difference, I would respect that opinion. When you buy stuff, anything...do you seek reviews from those who never owned one, never had experience with the product ? No...you want reviews from those with experience with said product. HELLO !!

Habanero Monk

DSkip wrote: »

But your argument is online with my point - if we can see what's changing, then SURELY we can't be hearing it right. Am I wrong?

I'm not arguing how anything works on the digital end because I'm ignorant. I'm arguing that seeing the change throws all results out the window.

How? Dump the memory registers for the 20 seconds for the same passage played twice and you will see that they are exactly the same. Seeing what change?