Anything bad to say about this?

pearsall001 · October 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

Hi all...

Just sold my AVR, and am about to purchase another. I've heard many positive things about the company but I'd like to hear some negatives too. Here's the possible setup:

Harman Kardon AVR 354
RTA 11TL's
CS400
Monitor 30's
Def. Tech Prosub 800.

I will be using it for 60% movies, 40% music. The reason I'm thinking of this AVR is because it reviewed VERY well for 2 channel listening, has what many have said is a very warm, musical sound, and does well with Movies as well. Also, I wanted one with preouts, so I can add an amp at a later time. The idea is eventually to add a 3-5 channel amp (Probably 3 for money reasons) to power the fronts, and let the AVR do the rest.

Please let me knwo if you have anything negative to say about this setup, specifically focusing on the AVR (I know the subwoofer can get better, the rears, etc...but mainly focusing on the combination of the AVR and speakers, and the overall quality fo the AVR).

If you have positive things to say about it, feel free as well, but looking for the possible downsides fo choosing the HK354.

Thanks,

James

I think you're safe with using the HK for both HT & 2 channel listening. Give it an honest listen & if it meets your listening criteria then your home free. If not try a separate pre to achieve a different sound. I ventured down the separate's road (preamp w/ HT bypass) after listening to all the hullabalou about how much improvement I'd experience. Well, it just didn't happen for me... & I had 2 pretty good pre's, a CJ tube pre & a Krell SS pre.

What I did get was nothing audibly better than what I already had (and was quite pleased with). If anything, I preceived somewhat of a different sound. But different has nothing to do with being better, I repeat...different has nothing to do with better! To my ears my NAD AVR won out & I sold them both. So, don't fall into the trap that just because you spend more $$$$ on anything audio related that it automatically equates to better sound. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Pycroft · October 2009

Thanks again to all...I still haven't received an answer to one thing.

On the 354 - is it possible to plug a preamp with HT bypass AND an amp, or not? It has preouts but I'm not sure how it works to be honest.

Thanks bunches, and good conversation...I've heard some kickin two channel systems - I mean really kickin - but I don' thave the cash for that...again, in the future, who knows

James

PSOVLSK · October 2009

steveinaz wrote: »

We have to remember that not everyone is into hi-fi to the "nth" degree. Some people just want a good solid system without being an audiophile.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is not "suitable" for serious music listening. Some people enjoy music, and some enjoy the equipment; there's a place in the hobby for both.

Agreed.

I've owned three H/K AVR's and have loved the sound quality of each one matched with Polk speakers. A negative would be the build quality. Of the 3 H/K units I've owned: one had to be replaced, another is having a few issues (but it is 10-15 years old), and my current one has a problem with the digital inputs.

reeltrouble1 · October 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

Thanks again to all...I still haven't received an answer to one thing.

On the 354 - is it possible to plug a preamp with HT bypass AND an amp, or not? It has preouts but I'm not sure how it works to be honest.

Thanks bunches, and good conversation...I've heard some kickin two channel systems - I mean really kickin - but I don' thave the cash for that...again, in the future, who knows

James

It is possibe but without the HT by-pass those musical signal degrading parts found in all AVR's will still be present doing there thing and it can actually sound worse, the idea with the by-pass is to share one nice amplifier for the entire system. Buy the best you can. In the end you will spend more time enjoying your rig and less money overall.

Have fun. I have owned both of those H&K's, both are gone, well, my son had one, so I guess technically it was still in the family, he dug it, he ought to, it was free (he did though take it to a pawn shop when he needed dough). They each sounded pretty much the same to me with the older Polk Monitor, RTA, SDA and RTi. I liked a NAD 1130, a Marantz 730 2-ch receiver, and a little Dodd Audio ELP (it had a by-pass, someone in this Club has it now, I think??)to name some I have experience with better than both H&K's for music, the AVR was better for mulit-channel HT so since your going to do HT no matter what you need an AVR so no waste in getting one.

RT1

Pycroft · October 2009

PVOLSK - You say you've had problems with some HK's...have you had problems with the HK 354? And RT1 - you say you've owned (or at least it was in the family) the 354? Did you have any problems with it? To be honest, I am choosing this based on reviews and suggestions. I have about 350 bucks to spend, and can get a refurbished one from the HK store on ebay. I don't think I can do any better for the buck...true?

James

RandyBox · October 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

PVOLSK - You say you've had problems with some HK's...have you had problems with the HK 354? And RT1 - you say you've owned (or at least it was in the family) the 354? Did you have any problems with it? To be honest, I am choosing this based on reviews and suggestions. I have about 350 bucks to spend, and can get a refurbished one from the HK store on ebay. I don't think I can do any better for the buck...true?

James

For $350, you can't go wrong with the 354, IMO...

Regards,
Randy

Pycroft · October 2009

Here is a picture of the back of the HK354. I've never used an amp with an AVR. What kind of connections does it have? The preouts seem to have 7 RCA type plugs (one for a subwoofer). How many plugs are used for an amp? Is it one per amp channel (5 channel uses 5, 3 channel uses 3, etc.). If so, is it possible to use a 3 channel and a 2 channel seperately...and if so, is it better to do that or to buy one 5 channel? Also, how would a possible preamp with HT passthrough plug in, and how many of those 7 free plugs would be used.

Thanks for the patience!

James

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

The pre-out's are labled on the back of the AVR and you need only one interconnect cable to connect each channel on an external amp. For the pre-amp i think you would need 2 interconnect's going from the pre-amp (1 left + 1 right) to the input's on the backside of the AVR

apphd · October 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

And...my other AVR was the Onkyo 606. I wanted to get one with Preouts so I can add amplification to make my speakers sound better - they are very nice speakers IMO, that I was told would come alive with a dedicated amp. I also felt the ONkyo didn't make the music sound great, and figured with the HK AVR, and an amp, it would improve everything.
James

Ok From the 606 you will be gaining the pre outs and a warmer sound, which if I'm following you is what you are trying for. As far as overall qual. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053202

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1043407

Lots to read there, keep in mind from my experience unhappy people are more likely to take the time to publish their opinion than happy people are. You will need to decide for yourself what the risk level is.

Pycroft wrote: »

Thanks all for the advice. I figure I'm 31 years old, I have plenty of time to keep going. Just to get this straight in my head, I CAN plug both a preamp and an amp into an AVR and use both at the same time, to mimic a straight 2 channel? A previous poster was right...I have very good speakers, but can't afford to hvae what I have, and buy two more front speakers, and all the goodies that go along for a strict 2 channel setup. Maybe the best would be the AVR, then an amp and preamp (If I CAN plug both in). Does anyone see anythign wrong with the receiver/speaker combo. I was told that the HK is known to be warm, and I belive my speaker combo also has a warm sound...is there too much warmth?

Thanks,

James

You have the right process in mind here. If the HK issues do not scare you off (I think a lot of them depend on what sources are being used) and you go with it. I say give it a shot by itself, it has very respectable power, and may not need an amp right away. After you give it a listen shop for an amp, after having the AVR for a while with out an amp you will have a better idea if you want to go with a 2 - 3 - or 5 ch. amp. After this then decide if you still feel you may want to try a 2 ch pre with HT bypass.

Pycroft · October 2009

Apphd -

I will NOT read that thread, as it would take me a week. I have had a number fo discussions and was told that the problems have pretty much been fixed with firmware updates, etc. The HK I would be getting is refurbished, but has a 1 year warranty, so I hope that makes me safe. Any ideas if the HK still has handshake issues, or any other issues that have NOT been dealt with through updates?

Thanks,

James

apphd · October 2009

James, sorry but no I do not know if handshake issue still exist, and I am not interested in reading through that thread ether.

There have been recent posts by some new owners here in CP that are having no issues. Like I said I think many of the handshake issues are related to what it is hooked up to (just my opinion).

Not sure what I would do in your shoes, the 354 looks to be perfect for what you are looking for. You could try some searches to see if all the updates addressed all/most of the issues. Personally I think I would give it a shot, but I would try (try meaning I probably would not read it all) going through the AVS thread first.

Ron Temple · October 2009

I still use the HK245 as a pre for HT and when I'm feeling lazy for music. It's not bad at all. There's no HT bypass. When I'm in the 2 channel mood, I hook a Luxman TP-114. It's a definite uptick. I just disconnect the front amp pre-outs from the HK, connect them to the pre and connect my player, BD83 through it's dedicated 2 channel outs to the Lux. Takes about a minute. The Luxman pre was a nice piece of midfi gear from the early 90s that streeted for $7-800. It was given to me, but they can be found for ~ $100. You can enjoy the best of both worlds fairly cheaply getting started.

As far as the HK goes...I've recommended them to you privately, so nothing new. However, for piece of mind's sake, get one from HK Direct. Any warranty issues are a snap. They just swap out your unit no questions asked, for the 2 year period. If you buy one retail, you get snagged into the retailers service network, big delays and no guarantee that your problem is fixed...much simpler to plug in a new refurb.

Pycroft · October 2009

Ron...

Yes, you were the first who mentioned HK to me. HK direct is my plan. I hope to be getting one this weekend. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks again for all the help.

James

Pycroft · October 2009

DAMNIT EBAY, STOP $*%&#(ing with me! The 354 last week was going for 315-335...within budget. This week 355-390. I've bid on 3 a day for almost a week now. I guess I'll have to wait for it to cool down a bit. I'm without a receiver for almost 2 weeks and it's hurting

tonyb · October 2009

steveinaz wrote: »

We have to remember that not everyone is into hi-fi to the "nth" degree. Some people just want a good solid system without being an audiophile.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is not "suitable" for serious music listening. Some people enjoy music, and some enjoy the equipment; there's a place in the hobby for both.

Ahmen brotha.

George Grand · October 2009

James,

I think you're going about things the correct way. I can't guide you around the various HT receivers the way these guys can, cause I don't have too much experience with them. But you're doing this in stages, as part of a long, learning trip, and that's good. Stepping up from the Onk to the HK would probably be a noticeable improvement in itself. Adding a separate power amp to the equation is a sure-fire sonic improvement. But why not just listen to the H-K for a week or two before you add the power amp and really do it in stages?

With your ear, and that the fact that you listen to live, amplified and non-amplified music on a daily basis, you have the edge over a lot of people here. You'll be giving out advice soon.

My daughter has some kind of Onkyo TX-701 or something like that in her room. I'm not impressed with it from a music standpoint. It sounded real bad with original Advent's but a pair of AR-302's toned it down a little, so I left those in there. It's pretty shrill that receiver.

If you need an interim receiver, stop by. I have some kind of Marantz Dolby Digital thing that's pretty nice looking and sounded okay when I was jacking around with it, but it has no remote. Use it till you don't need it anymore. SR-4300 is the name I think.

superjunior · October 2009

don't most receivers have a pure direct mode which bypasses all the digital processing in the avr? My avr/amp combo sounds fantastic in pure direct for music listening. am I missing out not having a pre?

kawizx9r · October 2009

I loved the Pure Direct mode in the Denon AVR2805 I was running, but you can do much better with a separate. Now that my tube pre came in, I like it much better than the AVR so I won't feel as bad shipping it out once it's sold.

Pycroft · October 2009

George - Thanks so much for the offer. I don't think I'll need a replacement...I'm just getting a bit jumpy because I took the time to price out the receivers, and all of a sudden they are 20-50 dollars higher for the last 2 weeks. I'm hoping I didn't price it at the wrong time. I know some may say it's only 20-50 bucks, but I'm reaching as it is. And trust me...I will be waiting a while to buy an external amp...mostly because of money as well. I've just been doing research and looking at prices. Once I get everything setup with the HK, and save up some more $$$ I'm sure I'll be posting another message asking for more advice. And the journey continues...

James

George Grand · October 2009

You're going about it the correct way.

gdb · October 2009

One of the Sunfire receivers will do HT and 2ch. music very well, with power to spare.(200x7) There's one on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sunfire-Ultimate-Receiver_W0QQitemZ330370196064QQcmdZViewItemQQptZReceivers_Tuners?hash=item4ceb992260

Pycroft · October 2009

GBD -

That looks like a beautiful AVR, but unfortunately, way out of my price range. I'm still waiting to get the HK354 for 350, because I cannot afford 360

That baby sure is expensive (My child that is, not the HK). Thanks so much for looking out! You're the man!

James

cnh · October 2009

That's a great price for a Sunfire, Pycroft. But the HK should do you fine. I sent you a PM on your Denon question...but realize after reading this thread that you've already decided on the HK. I like HKs as well. And I'm with cfrizz and others above.

YEAH! An AVR can't do music quite as well as separates...but you'd be SURPRISED how much BETTER and AVR WILL sound with a good power amp!!!

And, AVRs do add their 'signature' sound to almost any AMP..but there is also the question of synergy, i.e., how the AVR pre-amp will play with the power amp and what the the qualities of the power amp are as well.

In general though...most GOOD power amps are pretty neutral and so the AVR will usually determine what direction the sound takes! As HKs are generally 'warmer' sounding they should be pretty 'good' with music...can you have too much warm...ASK THE TUBE BOYS about that?

They ain't tubes for sure! But then again, on a limited budget as George says above, you're doing the right thing!

cnh

Pycroft · October 2009

I got my HK 354 yesterday, and my initial impressions are very good. I have not yet calibrated the speakers, but was able to listen to a CD, listen to some digital music through the IPod connector, and both sounded WAY better than the Onkyo setup. I noticed that HK is quite a bit heavier, and just seems well built. I will be calibrating the speakers either tonight, or tomorrow, and throwing in a reference quality BD, and see what I think. I am also expecting my first 2 channel amp to be arriving tomorrow, so that should change things as well. The only concern I am noticing is heat. I wasn't aware that heat was a problem, but it seems it got quite hot after only a little time listening. I did purchase a new audio rack, so the back, front, and sides are open, but there is only about an inch open on top. Maybe I should move the AVR to the top of the rack so it is totally open? Not sure that will look so good

Anyone else with a similar HK AVR find that it heats up?

Thanks for the advice everyone.

James

w_coyote · October 2009

Heat is not good. It will slowly kill your electronics. You need to move it to a place that is well ventilatated so it can get it can get rid of it. Heat is pretty common and not a problem as long as it has somewhere to go. I don't have a hk but I do have a denon avr and a adcom amp and both get alittle warm so I bought a 20" box fan that blows on them and keeps them cool. The only problem is dust but I get some of that canned air and blow them out about once a month or so. Do whatever you need to do so your avr and also your amp can get rid of the heat. They wont ever be compleatly cool unless they are off but shouldn't be hot either.

apphd · October 2009

Glad you are enjoying it. Can't comment on the HK in particular, but most AVRs do get warm. Driving the 11TLs with the 2 ch amp may cool it a little, but I would not think they would tax the 354 that much. But I think I would move it to the top and give it all the free air flow I could.

TECHNOKID · October 2009

Pycroft wrote: »

I got my HK 354 yesterday, and my initial impressions are very good. I have not yet calibrated the speakers, but was able to listen to a CD, listen to some digital music through the IPod connector, and both sounded WAY better than the Onkyo setup. I noticed that HK is quite a bit heavier, and just seems well built. I will be calibrating the speakers either tonight, or tomorrow, and throwing in a reference quality BD, and see what I think. I am also expecting my first 2 channel amp to be arriving tomorrow, so that should change things as well. The only concern I am noticing is heat. I wasn't aware that heat was a problem, but it seems it got quite hot after only a little time listening. I did purchase a new audio rack, so the back, front, and sides are open, but there is only about an inch open on top. Maybe I should move the AVR to the top of the rack so it is totally open? Not sure that will look so good Anyone else with a similar HK AVR find that it heats up?

Thanks for the advice everyone. Pycroft

James

Congrats and enjoy

Krazyz1 · October 2009

IF you compare H.K. to yamaha or pioneer feature 4 feature and power output for the money , the whole H.K. line up looking pretty sweet.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · October 2009

Congrat's on your purchase OP!

I thought once i added a separate amp that the yammy would run cooler but alas it still pump's out the heat

FWIW i run a 5ch amp for my F/C/S and only use the AVR to power my SB which are FXiA 6's....

Krazyz1 wrote: »

IF you compare H.K. to yamaha or pioneer feature 4 feature and power output for the money , the whole H.K. line up looking pretty sweet.

I'm sorry but i would have to politely disagree with you. Personally i find that Pioneer would have the most "bang" for buck and Yamaha include's a buttload of feature's, i think their top end model's have more feature's than any other AVR but i could be wrong. After all i am only human

I'm not saying that the HK is not a good AVR just that from what i have seen you can get more feature's with the pio/yammy

HK do underrate their power output though

apphd · October 2009

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Congrat's on your purchase OP!

I thought once i added a separate amp that the yammy would run cooler but alas it still pump's out the heat FWIW i run a 5ch amp for my F/C/S and only use the AVR to power my SB which are FXiA 6's....

.................. HK do underrate their power output though

I don't think they under rate their power at all. They just honestly rate their power;)

Anything bad to say about this?

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