Anything bad to say about this?

Pycroft

Hi all...

Just sold my AVR, and am about to purchase another. I've heard many positive things about the company but I'd like to hear some negatives too. Here's the possible setup:

Harman Kardon AVR 354
RTA 11TL's
CS400
Monitor 30's
Def. Tech Prosub 800.

I will be using it for 60% movies, 40% music. The reason I'm thinking of this AVR is because it reviewed VERY well for 2 channel listening, has what many have said is a very warm, musical sound, and does well with Movies as well. Also, I wanted one with preouts, so I can add an amp at a later time. The idea is eventually to add a 3-5 channel amp (Probably 3 for money reasons) to power the fronts, and let the AVR do the rest.

Please let me knwo if you have anything negative to say about this setup, specifically focusing on the AVR (I know the subwoofer can get better, the rears, etc...but mainly focusing on the combination of the AVR and speakers, and the overall quality fo the AVR).

If you have positive things to say about it, feel free as well, but looking for the possible downsides fo choosing the HK354.

Thanks,

James

reeltrouble1

how about the fact that it's not designed to play music, none are. No serious music rig uses an AVR, so if you just want some background occasional stuff at a party what have you OK, but if your wanting to get into the music, well, an AVR is just not going to cut it, they are filled with music signal degrading devices of all sorts.

RT1

RandyBox

Pycroft wrote: »

Hi all...

Just sold my AVR, and am about to purchase another. I've heard many positive things about the company but I'd like to hear some negatives too. Here's the possible setup:

Harman Kardon AVR 354
RTA 11TL's
CS400
Monitor 30's
Def. Tech Prosub 800.

I will be using it for 60% movies, 40% music. The reason I'm thinking of this AVR is because it reviewed VERY well for 2 channel listening, has what many have said is a very warm, musical sound, and does well with Movies as well. Also, I wanted one with preouts, so I can add an amp at a later time. The idea is eventually to add a 3-5 channel amp (Probably 3 for money reasons) to power the fronts, and let the AVR do the rest.

Please let me knwo if you have anything negative to say about this setup, specifically focusing on the AVR (I know the subwoofer can get better, the rears, etc...but mainly focusing on the combination of the AVR and speakers, and the overall quality fo the AVR).

If you have positive things to say about it, feel free as well, but looking for the possible downsides fo choosing the HK354.

Thanks,

James

I am very happy with my H/K 347. Not a single complaint here, except I should have gotten a 354 :rolleyes:

Check out the Harmanaudio auctions on E-Bay for a refurb 354. They generally sell for $325-$350.

Regards,
Randy

RandyBox

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

how about the fact that it's not designed to play music, none are. No serious music rig uses an AVR, so if you just want some background occasional stuff at a party what have you OK, but if your wanting to get into the music, well, an AVR is just not going to cut it, they are filled with music signal degrading devices of all sorts.

RT1

He says he'll be using it for 60% movies.

Regards,
Randy

Pycroft

That brings up a noob question...If I use a good amp to power the front 2 speakers, won't there be clean power goign to the speakers, and the only job of the AVR will be to do the CD player...almost like a pre-amp? I realize in the perfect world, I'd have this killer two channel setup...I'm starting out, and figure this is as good as it gets? Thanks so far for the comments...I hope they keep coming.

ben62670

I ran an HK for music/HT no problems. They make a great dual purpose unit for both. I had an outlaw 990 that I upgraded to ,and the HK held it's own.
Ben

Pycroft

Ben -
Would you mind sharing what model your HK was? I was going between the 254 and 354. I was origianlly going with the 254, but came into a few extra bucks, and figured I'd up it a bit. Actually, maybe it's not that big a deal if I play to only power the rear speakers with the AVR.

Let me know.

James

concealer404

Pycroft wrote: »

That brings up a noob question...If I use a good amp to power the front 2 speakers, won't there be clean power goign to the speakers, and the only job of the AVR will be to do the CD player...almost like a pre-amp?

"Almost" is the key word there.

You're on the right track, but it sounds like you need to look for a 2-channel preamp with HT bypass later on down the road.

But you're correct, if you need both right now, HT and 2channel, you're off to a good start.

Pycroft

Alright, now I'm unsure...what exactly is a preamp with HT bypass? I'm guessing the only difference between that and an AVR is that the Preamp doesn't power anything, it just processes. If I were to get a 5 channel amp to power my 5 speakers with the HK354, is it the same thing? Can you give me a few examples of what you're talking about? Something on audiogon with a few links so I can look and compare?

Thanks

I'm glad I asked this question.

James

apphd

First I have to say I have never used a HK so take my comment for what it's worth.

Many, many people report here on how well the HK sounds with Polk speakers. They just always seem to have some synergy going on with the two.

As Randy has stated he is very happy with his, as well as many other owners. But there does seem to be a lot of complaints with a couple models for some buggy operation and reliability. Do your research on the models you are considering, AVS forum usually has loads of info if you can wade through the BS.

AVRs are "designed" to play music. An AVR is full of compromises that prevent them from being outstanding in any one area that separates can shine in. But AVRs can do ok, to pretty good, to very good at being a one piece solution for many, just not everyone.

concealer404

apphd wrote: »

First I have to say I have never used a HK so take my comment for what it's worth.

Many, many people report here on how well the HK sounds with Polk speakers. They just always seem to have some synergy going on with the two.

As Randy has stated he is very happy with his, as well as many other owners. But there does seem to be a lot of complaints with a couple models for some buggy operation and reliability. Do your research on the models you are considering, AVS forum usually has loads of info if you can wade through the BS.

AVRs are "designed" to play music. An AVR is full of compromises that prevent them from being outstanding in any one area that separates can shine in. But AVRs can do ok, to pretty good, to very good at being a one piece solution for many, just not everyone.

This^

I've experimented playing music, using my Pioneer VSX-D850S as my "preamp" and it sounds decent. But it sounds harsh, not as full, etc....

So i use the AVR for HT, and HT only.

vc69

concealer404 wrote: »

This^

I've experimented playing music, using my Pioneer VSX-D850S as my "preamp" and it sounds decent. But it sounds harsh, not as full, etc....

So i use the AVR for HT, and HT only.

Same here.

Separates are the only way to for music listening.

steveinaz

We have to remember that not everyone is into hi-fi to the "nth" degree. Some people just want a good solid system without being an audiophile.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is not "suitable" for serious music listening. Some people enjoy music, and some enjoy the equipment; there's a place in the hobby for both.

Pycroft

Concealer - What is this preamp wtih HT bypass? Still unsure... And...I'm a professional musician, and would like to get the best possible, but absolutely love my HT. If I can get a preamp that will be great for Music, and do HT, that's fine with me...I'm still confused on exactly what the HT bypass means...

James

everpress

I want the best system I can get for what I can afford.
I currently have that. And when I can afford better, I'll do my research and find the best price that I can for what I want. I'll even wait a few years until people just want rid of it if I have to.
Brand new, MSRP, my receiver and speakers would be about $3200... I paid about $215 for everything. Granted, my mains are about 20 years old and my receiver is 10 and my surrounds/sub are 6 years old.... They still sound better than anything I've ever had... and at my price point, that's not bad at all. I get to hear music like I've never been able to before and watch movies like I've never been able to before.

concealer404

Just means that you can bypass the 2-channel preamp and use your AVR for HT, so you don't truly have to run two separate rigs for music/movies.

w_coyote

Seperates may be the way to go for the serious listener but seperates can get expensive. I don't see anything wrong with what he has listed although I've never heard any of it myself. Sounds like the OP is working within a budget and is trying to get the best he can and stay within his budget. I think his list would work fine to get him started and he can upgrade as his budget permits.

apphd

Pycroft wrote: »

Concealer - What is this preamp wtih HT bypass? Still unsure... And...I'm a professional musician, and would like to get the best possible, but absolutely love my HT. If I can get a preamp that will be great for Music, and do HT, that's fine with me...I'm still confused on exactly what the HT bypass means...

James

What they are saying is you have an AVR the HK or what ever you decide on. Then you have a separate 2 ch pre amp that has HT bypass. You use the pre amp for music, turn the HT bypass on for HT which then is using your AVR which, if using separate amps would actually be just a HT processor. There are HT pre amp/processors out there that can out perform AVRs for SQ, for some this would still not fit their ears and would still want a 2 ch pre. I don't think I have seen you mention a budget. Regardless of what many might say, that is really what everyone builds around. Some may have higher budgets to play with but I'm pretty sure there are things in their system that they would change if they had unlimited funds.

There are so many directions you can go, and options to get you there with equipment, a budget goes a long way for others to make suggestions.
If I may, from your statement above, I would say you want a kick a$$ dedicated 2 ch rig and a separate killer HT rig. But that probably is not what you said just the way I read it and 2 rigs is out of the question for many, for many reasons.
There is a lot to be said for doing it right, and doing it once, but I would suggest continue with your plan of replacing your AVR and build from that. You may be completely satisfied, or you may find things you wish to improve on. What was your reason for selling your old AVR and what was it? This would also be a help for others to make suggestions.

Pycroft

Would I then have the HK AVR 354, another Preamp to bypass the AVR for 2 channel listening, AND an amp? Would I be able to do that? Or would i have to go AVR for HT, The preamp for 2 channel, and NO amp at all, and use just the AVR to power the speakers?

Pycroft

And...my other AVR was the Onkyo 606. I wanted to get one with Preouts so I can add amplification to make my speakers sound better - they are very nice speakers IMO, that I was told would come alive with a dedicated amp. I also felt the ONkyo didn't make the music sound great, and figured with the HK AVR, and an amp, it would improve everything.

James

vc69

Py,

I posted this in another thread you started. It may have even more relevancy here, I dunno.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1160967&postcount=36

Thing is, AVR's are great for HT. AVR's are not great for music. I am unfamiliar with the HK's but I would imagine it to be so-so at best for music. The link above tells what my experience has been. We are basically on the same quest and I have already made some mistakes I would advise against. One being the idea that any AVR would serve me well as a music pre-amp. YMMV.

olilugo

apphd wrote: »

What they are saying is you have an AVR the HK or what ever you decide on. Then you have a separate 2 ch pre amp that has HT bypass. You use the pre amp for music, turn the HT bypass on for HT which then is using your AVR which, if using separate amps would actually be just a HT processor. There are HT pre amp/processors out there that can out perform AVRs for SQ, for some this would still not fit their ears and would still want a 2 ch pre. I don't think I have seen you mention a budget. Regardless of what many might say, that is really what everyone builds around. Some may have higher budgets to play with but I'm pretty sure there are things in their system that they would change if they had unlimited funds.

There are so many directions you can go, and options to get you there with equipment, a budget goes a long way for others to make suggestions.
If I may, from your statement above, I would say you want a kick a$$ dedicated 2 ch rig and a separate killer HT rig. But that probably is not what you said just the way I read it and 2 rigs is out of the question for many, for many reasons.
There is a lot to be said for doing it right, and doing it once, but I would suggest continue with your plan of replacing your AVR and build from that. You may be completely satisfied, or you may find things you wish to improve on. What was your reason for selling your old AVR and what was it? This would also be a help for others to make suggestions.

Is this picture correct?

cfrizz

Pycroft wrote: »

That brings up a noob question...If I use a good amp to power the front 2 speakers, won't there be clean power goign to the speakers, and the only job of the AVR will be to do the CD player...almost like a pre-amp? I realize in the perfect world, I'd have this killer two channel setup...I'm starting out, and figure this is as good as it gets? Thanks so far for the comments...I hope they keep coming.

Yes you will be using the receiver partially as a prepro, since you still will be driving the rest of the speakers with the HK.

This is a fine place to start. And I personally don't believe you HAVE to have 2 separate systems for 2 channel & HT. I only have one system for both & I think it sounds terrific. I don't sit there analyzing every little detail of what I'm listening to I simply enjoy.

So this is a good place to start, and when the urge & more funds become available, then you can upgrade to a 5 channel amp, prepro, 2 channel, etc.

In the meantime get it & enjoy.

cfrizz

THANK YOU Steve, for injecting this thread with some common sense!

James, don't let all of these other people get you confused so that you can't make any kind of a decision.

You are well on your way to putting together a very good system with a good game plan. Get whichever HK that has all the features that you want & make sure it has preouts to add separate amplification later on. Then sit back and enjoy until you are ready to upgrade again.:)

steveinaz wrote: »

We have to remember that not everyone is into hi-fi to the "nth" degree. Some people just want a good solid system without being an audiophile.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is not "suitable" for serious music listening. Some people enjoy music, and some enjoy the equipment; there's a place in the hobby for both.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

Personally i'm not a fan of HK product's but they are VERY good quality so i say go for it and if you decide you need more power down the road plug in an external AMP and let 'er rip

IMO bang/buck AVR would Pioneer

Pycroft

Thanks all for the advice. I figure I'm 31 years old, I have plenty of time to keep going. Just to get this straight in my head, I CAN plug both a preamp and an amp into an AVR and use both at the same time, to mimic a straight 2 channel? A previous poster was right...I have very good speakers, but can't afford to hvae what I have, and buy two more front speakers, and all the goodies that go along for a strict 2 channel setup. Maybe the best would be the AVR, then an amp and preamp (If I CAN plug both in). Does anyone see anythign wrong with the receiver/speaker combo. I was told that the HK is known to be warm, and I belive my speaker combo also has a warm sound...is there too much warmth?

Thanks,

James

pearsall001

steveinaz wrote: »

We have to remember that not everyone is into hi-fi to the "nth" degree. Some people just want a good solid system without being an audiophile.

I have to disagree strongly with the notion that a receiver is not "suitable" for serious music listening. Some people enjoy music, and some enjoy the equipment; there's a place in the hobby for both.

Agree 100%! To achieve that "nth"degree puts one clearly into the "AudioPhool" category as far as I'm concerned. To say that an AVR is not suitable for "serious" music listening is just BS. Let's not scare the newcomers off with such nonsense.

vc69

Ok, ok, ok. I don't mean to be scaring anyone off. I'm sure there are those that are quite well served by an AVR for 2ch. If he is NOT one of those people. He will learn that for himself.

My experience has been different is all I am trying to say and a variety of opinions is what he seemed to be asking for.

WilliamM2

vc69 wrote: »

Ok, ok, ok. I don't mean to be scaring anyone off. I'm sure there are those that are quite well served by an AVR for 2ch. If he is NOT one of those people. He will learn that for himself.

My experience has been different is all I am trying to say and a variety of opinions is what he seemed to be asking for.

So you are saying that all separate pre's, sounds better than all AVR's for music? That certainly hasn't been my experience.

dvran

cfrizz wrote: »

THANK YOU Steve, for injecting this thread with some common sense!

James, don't let all of these other people get you confused so that you can't make any kind of a decision.

You are well on your way to putting together a very good system with a good game plan. Get whichever HK that has all the features that you want & make sure it has pre-outs to add separate amplification later on. Then sit back and enjoy until you are ready to upgrade again.:)

+1, AND:

Look for a receiver that has pre-amp outputs so you can upgrade to an external amp in the future. Some low end 7 and 5 channel receivers that are in the 300-500 dollar range do not have expandability to a pre-amp later. Adding on a 2 channel pre-amp later will greatly enhance your listening pleasure in the future.

Many guys in this forum will give you great advice, except many guys in this forum have dumped lots of money and time into their systems. A crappy sounding system to them might sound awesome to you because you haven't been exposed to what they've listened to. If I was you, I would go to an audio store and listen to a few different receivers and see what you like that's in your budget. OR buy two receivers, try them both out for a week and return the one you don't want.

vc69

WilliamM2 wrote: »

So you are saying that all separate pre's, sounds better than all AVR's for music? That certainly hasn't been my experience.

Certainly not. I am saying that, in my experience, separates are necessary to achieve the level of quality I am looking for. I haven't heard every combination possible, but I ascribe to the theory that dedicated components are capable of higher fidelity.

I am also saying that if you spend your money wisely on separates you will easily out perform even the high end AVR's for 2 ch.

If you disagree and would like to discuss it further, perhaps we should start our own thread.