CD vs Vinyl sound
Comments
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Ummm a phono pre's RIAA eq provides a bass boost and treble cut plus substantial gain needed to bring the low output of a cartridge up to that of line level sources.Needhlesss to say a line level source will sound horrible plugged into the phono input.yepimonfire wrote: »one interesting thing i noticed was i hooked up my Ipod to the phono inputs on my receiver and got extra warmness, wtf? yes my receiver has a seperate pre-amp for phono. any ideas? -
it sounds clipped, but warmer nonetheless.
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No kidding:D the excessive gain is probasbly overloading the preamp stage following the RIAA section.yepimonfire wrote: »it sounds clipped, -
yepimonfire wrote: »unfortunately everything youve said so far conflicts with everything i have learned from multiple sources and to accept what you say goes against books worth of study. i'd suggest you go to amazon.com and pick up some books on audio reproduction and recording and then come back. either way no point in arguing with people who have heir minds already made up.
I've been around audio for much longer than you've been alive....I was sincerely trying to help you as you seemed confused at best and you're going to tell me to go look at some books!?! Nothing, I repeat nothing I've said here goes against any book on audio. Oh well, at least I tried. Another one joins the ever growing list.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I guess someone put the sign with the arrow back up Jesse.
RT1 -
Yeah Ted, sure seems like it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Hey Jesse...you need to get your read-on.
How about...
Maybe you might learn something....especially about contraptions
"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
hail hail the gangs all here, got one on the Fisher Price stuff ShackDaddy.
RT1 -
LOL.....I know that even an iPod sounds better than one of those, Steve.
I've actually worked on a few nice phonogragh cabinets and have to say the craftsmanship was pretty good. Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
LOL.....I know that even an iPod sounds better than one of those, Steve.
not if their tubed..................
RT1 -
F1nut wrote:LOL.....I know that even an iPod sounds better than one of those, Steve.
Without measurements...how could you possibly know that
"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
IMHO these sound more "tube like"than the Fisher Price stuff;)http://www.spectraintl.com/hk/cdp_boombox.htmreeltrouble1 wrote: »got one on the Fisher Price stuff ShackDaddy.
RT1 -
I've created a monster! It seems like all forums are the same in most respects. This one however, seems to be the most friendly. One however, that rymes with AVS, is not.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
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Yepimonfire-You've got a lot to learn. What you've been told on audioholics in the past is essentially, IMO, a bunch of "anti-hifi insurgent" mumbo jumbo. They claim that all power amps sound the same, all cables sound the same, different preamps won't influence the sound of your rig, all digital sources sound the same...because it's "just 1's and 0's"...apparently the transport doesn't matter...It's just the DAC that matters. Even the DAC can't be used to add any different flavor to the sound though. It sounds the same through any DAC apparently.
According to them, the only part of your system that can actually have any real effect on your sound is the speakers. This simply is NOT true.
I'd love it to be true. It would save me a lot of money.
However...I HAVE heard differences with cables...with MY OWN ears.
I HAVE heard differences between solid state amps...again, with my own ears.
I've heard differences between different transports running through my DAC. My DAC has two inputs, and I've hooked up two sources it at the same time...put a copy of the same CD in each, and A/B them on the fly. The differences between the two were drastic, and immediately noticeable.
This is not the kind of hobby where you can read a book and instantly be an expert on the subject. It takes YEARS of experience, and lots of experimentation with all sorts of different gear. Measuring tools are just that...measuring tools. There is no better tool for this purpose than the human ear. You can have all the electrical measurements in the world...but it still says absolutely nothing about the actual sound that you're going to get.
You yourself state that..."two amps with the same amount of power and the same THD ratings (assuming they are realistic specs) will not have much difference in sound."
Not much difference in sound...or no difference in sound? Did it occur to you that maybe this "not much of a difference", is the difference that people are hearing? Differences in an amps sound are much different than the difference between a cats meow and a dogs bark. It's not as if switching your amp is going to turn all of your music into a completely different song.
These are differences that you might not even notice within the first few seconds of listening. Sometimes, it takes hours, days, or even weeks of listening to thoroughly compare two pieces of gear.
"and i have heard several different amps and i do know some of them will sound different based on power ratings and THD ratings,"
As Jesse stated, the THD of a modern SS amp is so low, that the human ear can't even detect it. An amps THD rating is one of THE LAST things you should look at when looking at amps. That's not even a factor that I've remotely taken into consideration when I've shopped for amps.
"i was mainly reffering to people saying different amps have better imaging, which amps have nothing to do with imaging."
Every component in the chain has an effect on every aspect of your sound. This includes response across the entire frequency range, as well as sound staging and imaging.nooshinjohn wrote: »There are so many grammatical and spelling errors here that is is laughable at best. It is clear you cannot spell and you expect us to believe you can read?:p;):D
On a serious note, F1's experience comes from just that, experience. If you are only getting yours from books, then you are missing most of the story, and that has little relevance here. Get your learn on with actual equipment and then make comments based on your observations.:)
John, everyone makes spelling mistakes. I've even seen you make a few before. I don't think that's really any basis to think less of the guy.;) This is an internet message board full of a bunch of nerds(yeah, I said it:p). We aren't writing a letter to the Queen of England here.;)
Eye theenk weer all alloud 2 mayk uh foow speeeling mistax frum tym 2 tym.:)The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
I've been around audio for much longer than you've been alive....I was sincerely trying to help you as you seemed confused at best and you're going to tell me to go look at some books!?! Nothing, I repeat nothing I've said here goes against any book on audio. Oh well, at least I tried. Another one joins the ever growing list.
Wow Jess, you're getting soft Bro! I stopped several pages ago and bozo listed and haven't peeked heheheh.
Well, it looks like a kinder, gentler, F1nut is joining the ranks of the kinder gentler America! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:eek::D Either that or came into some big money hehehe!;) -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Yepimonfire-You've got a lot to learn. What you've been told on audioholics in the past is essentially, IMO, a bunch of "anti-hifi insurgent" mumbo jumbo. They claim that all power amps sound the same, all cables sound the same, different preamps won't influence the sound of your rig, all digital sources sound the same...because it's "just 1's and 0's"...apparently the transport doesn't matter...It's just the DAC that matters. Even the DAC can't be used to add any different flavor to the sound though. It sounds the same through any DAC apparently.
According to them, the only part of your system that can actually have any real effect on your sound is the speakers. This simply is NOT true.
I'd love it to be true. It would save me a lot of money.
However...I HAVE heard differences with cables...with MY OWN ears.
I HAVE heard differences between solid state amps...again, with my own ears.
I've heard differences between different transports running through my DAC. My DAC has two inputs, and I've hooked up two sources it at the same time...put a copy of the same CD in each, and A/B them on the fly. The differences between the two were drastic, and immediately noticeable.
This is not the kind of hobby where you can read a book and instantly be an expert on the subject. It takes YEARS of experience, and lots of experimentation with all sorts of different gear. Measuring tools are just that...measuring tools. There is no better tool for this purpose than the human ear. You can have all the electrical measurements in the world...but it still says absolutely nothing about the actual sound that you're going to get.
You yourself state that..."two amps with the same amount of power and the same THD ratings (assuming they are realistic specs) will not have much difference in sound."
Not much difference in sound...or no difference in sound? Did it occur to you that maybe this "not much of a difference", is the difference that people are hearing? Differences in an amps sound are much different than the difference between a cats meow and a dogs bark. It's not as if switching your amp is going to turn all of your music into a completely different song.
These are differences that you might not even notice within the first few seconds of listening. Sometimes, it takes hours, days, or even weeks of listening to thoroughly compare two pieces of gear.
"and i have heard several different amps and i do know some of them will sound different based on power ratings and THD ratings,"
As Jesse stated, the THD of a modern SS amp is so low, that the human ear can't even detect it. An amps THD rating is one of THE LAST things you should look at when looking at amps. That's not even a factor that I've remotely taken into consideration when I've shopped for amps.
"i was mainly reffering to people saying different amps have better imaging, which amps have nothing to do with imaging."
Every component in the chain has an effect on every aspect of your sound. This includes response across the entire frequency range, as well as sound staging and imaging.
John, everyone makes spelling mistakes. I've even seen you make a few before. I don't think that's really any basis to think less of the guy.;) This is an internet message board full of a bunch of nerds(yeah, I said it:p). We aren't writing a letter to the Queen of England here.;)
Eye theenk weer all alloud 2 mayk uh foow speeeling mistax frum tym 2 tym.:)
LOL!!! Curt! I haven't been able to read his posts but someone quoted the one that John was referring to and I couldn't make head or tale of what was being said. There's a difference between typos and gibberish. Not attacking the guy mind you, just making an observation. -
hearingimpared wrote: »LOL!!! Curt! I haven't been able to read his posts but someone quoted the one that John was referring to and I couldn't make head or tail of what was being said. There's a difference between typos and gibberish. Not attacking the guy mind you, just making an observation.
Incorrect word usage, fixed, hehehe.:D
BTW this quote from Mike's sig is very appropriate here;"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." Daniel R. von Recklinghausen -
Can't believe I came back and read this thread again. I must be insane. 15 minutes of my life I will never get back.
There are a lot of people here that need to spend more time enjoying music and less time debating pointless arguments on the internet. But I suppose that is the beauty of the world we live in and the beauty of the free internet. Everyone is an expert.
High quality vinyl is fun to listen to; forget all the technical garbage. Maybe it is a generation thing. Yeah, that's it.
I enjoy the spirit though!
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yepimonfire wrote: »lets stop the arguing and actually discuss things, one interesting thing i noticed was i hooked up my Ipod to the phono inputs on my receiver and got extra warmness, wtf? yes my receiver has a seperate pre-amp for phono. any ideas?
oh an btw, the whole science versus experience thing with me has probably come from being beaten to death on audioholics for making claims that werent "scientific" such as claiming i have a "bad sounding" amp.
if i wanted to forget science and go with experience for a moment my opinions may change.
As I stated before, science is not infalable. A book cannot tell you something that you have not heard with your own ears. But, peoples' perception and ability to concentrate on what they are listening to are not infalable either. This gets into another touchy subject about how people experience things. (i.e. reality vs. peoples' perception of reality). The best way I have found to listen to something is without any preconceptions of what I am going to hear. It is concentrating without thinking. That's the way to listen to the differences between vinyl and CD.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Okay, but what differences did you hear when using somebody elses ears?
Finally, a clear head in the bunch.
Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
As I stated before, science is not infalable. A book cannot tell you something that you have not heard with your own ears. But, peoples' perception and ability to concentrate on what they are listening to are not infalable either. This gets into another touchy subject about how people experience things. (i.e. reality vs. peoples' perception of reality). The best way I have found to listen to something is without any preconceptions of what I am going to hear. It is concentrating without thinking. That's the way to listen to the differences between vinyl and CD.
Greg
The only way we "know" reality is how our minds perceive reality. Take vision: A large percentage of people are colorblind, semi-colorblind, etc. They see the same things us non-colorblind people do, but not exactly this same. A chair is a chair, but to some it's colored brown, others it's grey, and to others it's a brown-grey. I see no reason this wouldn't apply to hearing as well. We all hear a drum beat or a symbol clash, but we don't all hear the exact same beat or clash. We all have different realities.
Visible light that is colored blue can be represented scientifically by saying it has a wavelength of 450 nm, for example. There's no arguing this. Where you can argue, is the type of blue your mind interprets 450nm as. We don't all see the exact blue. There's subtle differences. I think this is also true of audio. You cannot argue the measurements. A 1000Hz tone is a 1000Hz tone. Period. But what it sounds like to every person is NOT the exact same sound. Until we can understand how the trillions of connections in our individual brains interpret reality, you can't scientifically say what someone hears.
Sorry if this sounded like an argument against you. It wasn't in any way. Just my thoughts on reality vs. perceived reality. -
The only way we "know" reality is how our minds perceive reality. Take vision: A large percentage of people are colorblind, semi-colorblind, etc. They see the same things us non-colorblind people do, but not exactly this same. A chair is a chair, but to some it's colored brown, others it's grey, and to others it's a brown-grey. I see no reason this wouldn't apply to hearing as well. We all hear a drum beat or a symbol clash, but we don't all hear the exact same beat or clash. We all have different realities.
Visible light that is colored blue can be represented scientifically by saying it has a wavelength of 450 nm, for example. There's no arguing this. Where you can argue, is the type of blue your mind interprets 450nm as. We don't all see the exact blue. There's subtle differences. I think this is also true of audio. You cannot argue the measurements. A 1000Hz tone is a 1000Hz tone. Period. But what it sounds like to every person is NOT the exact same sound. Until we can understand how the trillions of connections in our individual brains interpret reality, you can't scientifically say what someone hears.
Sorry if this sounded like an argument against you. It wasn't in any way. Just my thoughts on reality vs. perceived reality.
You just made the case for "trust your ears!" and have countered every ABX test ever done.:) -
hearingimpared wrote: »You just made the case for "trust your ears!" and have countered every ABX test ever done.:)
I don't think I really countered ABX testing necessarily. Because even though everyone may hear things differently, they should hear them consistently different. I don't think the way you hear will change in the middle of an ABX test. -
I don't think I really countered ABX testing necessarily. Because even though everyone may hear things differently, they should hear them consistently different. I don't think the way you hear will change in the middle of an ABX test.
Maybe not, but, well me not giving any creedence to ABX testing for audio, I found your remarks applied. -
Since I'm too lazy today to read the entire post,,I'll jump in with a question. I have been tweaking my vinyl rig,and here is where I am at.
CD's seem to have a better soundstage all around compared to MY vinyl rig.
Vinyl seems to have a better "tone" with less digital edginess.
I much prefer vinyl thru headphones than digital.
Vinyl sounds more realistic in my rig than cd.
I guess I'm chasing the final frontier of "intimatecy" with vinyl,,sometimes its quite frustrating and I sometimes I want to throw my hands up and quit,,but I keep coming back,,maybe I have unrealistic expectations.
For the sake of "what is your rig"--here is the one I'm talking about(maybe I should try it on the SDA's),,ya' think?
Scout-dyna xl 20 lo---Joe's clamp(shimless)
Dyna P 75(pe mode) or NYAL Super It
Wright WLA 12a preamp(RCA 5692's,,1940's TS 6X5 rectifier)
Quicksilver Mono M-80's with SED wing "C" EL 34's
Tyler Acoustic's Taylos Monitors
This really is a very deep dark hole,,,I'm waaay past the slippery slope :rolleyes:JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
george daniel wrote: »Since I'm too lazy today to read the entire post,,I'll jump in with a question. I have been tweaking my vinyl rig,and here is where I am at.
CD's seem to have a better soundstage all around compared to MY vinyl rig.
Vinyl seems to have a better "tone" with less digital edginess.
I much prefer vinyl thru headphones than digital.
Vinyl sounds more realistic in my rig than cd.
I guess I'm chasing the final frontier of "intimatecy" with vinyl,,sometimes its quite frustrating and I sometimes I want to throw my hands up and quit,,but I keep coming back,,maybe I have unrealistic expectations.
For the sake of "what is your rig"--here is the one I'm talking about(maybe I should try it on the SDA's),,ya' think?
Scout-dyna xl 20 lo---Joe's clamp(shimless)
Dyna P 75(pe mode) or NYAL Super It
Wright WLA 12a preamp(RCA 5692's,,1940's TS 6X5 rectifier)
Quicksilver Mono M-80's with SED wing "C" EL 34's
Tyler Acoustic's Taylos Monitors
This really is a very deep dark hole,,,I'm waaay past the slippery slope :rolleyes:
Still can't find the third sized shim or another thin shim to make up the difference, but I'm still looking, so I'll send you the two sizes I have George in tomorrow's mail and when I find the third I'll send that along afterwards. Sorry I'm so anal and a perfectionist!:D:o and for the delay.
Hey I just realized, you got the clamp! Awesome!:) I just checked my spreedsheet and found your addy. Check your mail at the end of the week, they are coming in a regular letter envelope.
Did you receive the clamp instruction guide from Dave? Let me know. If you didn't I'll send a copy along with the shims.
Sorry for the derail. -
I got an itch for LPs from this thread so I went down to half price book store and bought some old LPs.
It's fun to spin vinyl again after some 20 years. My El cheapo TT sounds not too bad. I'd like it. A litlle static pop now and then but the sound is very " organic". Now if I can get a hold on some Led, Grand Funk RR, Three dogs night, CCR for $2.99 a pop, it would be awesome.
A few more trips to different Half Price Bookstore locations may fulfill that project. Thank you for bringing back the fun. -
Yep,, got the instructions,,,somewhere,,, and just found and cleaned your Velvet Underground,,"Squeeze",, polydor,,British pressing 1972,,on it's way tomorrow.JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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George, how does the P75 sound in standard low output MC? Have you played with different loading settings while in standard low output MC? Never hurts to try different settings despite what the recommendations are.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Rich,, I've been playing with the loading in the PE mode,,IIRC I'm @ 100 ohm,,good idea though,, I'm gonna pop upstairs and do that right now--thanks JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
