CD vs Vinyl sound
polkfan38
Posts: 360
I was trying to think why Vinyl has such a warmer sound than CD in most cases. Is it because CDs are digital with just a "1" and a "0" or on and off where vinyl has everything in between? It is just one of thoughs things that I would like to know.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
Post edited by polkfan38 on
Comments
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I was trying to think why Vinyl has such a warmer sound than CD in most cases. Is it because CDs are digital with just a "1" and a "0" or on and off where vinyl has everything in between? It is just one of thoughs things that I would like to know.
Thanks!
Yep! Digital vs. analog. The debate comes in when digital is at a high enough resolution (whatever that might be) where it's indistinguishable to the human ear/brain. Of course, that resolution is much higher for audiophiles.
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Bingo! In a cdp, a processor needs to interpret the missing data between the 1's and 0's and LP's are the true sound as intended by the artist.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Lots of reasons. RIAA equalization, type of cartridge, type of needle, quality of phono preamp, etc. Not to mention the "infinite" flow of musical information via grooves.
Another often forgotten factor---poorly engineered CD's. I have heard CD's that easily rival their vinyl counter parts, but it's rare, and it's a shame. The format can do it, it's getting people to care (and have the competence) about the quality of the recordings.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
The easiest way to think about it is that a CD is trying to replicate analog via D/A conversion, while a record IS analog which is how music is conveyed to the listener.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
There are inherent limitations to the CD format that SACD and HDCD along with good ole analog don't suffer from. Temporal smearing for one. But if extra warmth is what you're after and the science doesn't matter to you, consider looking into a tube buffer to patch between your cd player and your amp. That should add the warmth you're lacking.Infinity QLS1, Polk SDA-1A, OLAdvent Econowave, Yamaha RXV-1300, CDC-685, P2200, AB International 9220A, Rane ME15B, Cambridge Audio 640P, Grant Fidelity B-283, Luxman PD277-AT7V, Pioneer PL707-Denon DL-207, DL-160....And projects on the bench!
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where vinyl has everything in between?
You mean snap, crackle and pop? Yeah, it's definitely got those.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You mean snap, crackle and pop? Yeah, it's definitely got those.
Good one F1nut!
Tube buffers are a 'good' idea. I hate that CD harshness. But I am also beginning to think that amps and pres can 'help' take that edge off. Integrated amps like some NADs, for example, have been described as 'warmer' by reviewers....the Onkyo A9555 has also been described this way (with an upgrade Hifi filter intall)....and of, course--a good TUBE pre-amp would be even better. This is an issue that also concerns me....of course there are Tube output CD players like the Raysonic, etc. which I have yet to actually hear...the Bada, Cary, and a number of others...that are not exactly available for chump change!
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
No, PF38; CDs and other digital media aren't missing any musical information that's "in between". It's a basic factor of the digital sampling process that as long as there are at least two samples taken(as would be the case around 20,000Hz)the analog waveform is reproduced exactly. After the DAC conversion the analog waveform is just as continuous as it was before the digital sampling, and that's what we hear. As a practical matter, the LP format can't match this for accuracy.
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No, PF38; CDs and other digital media aren't missing any musical information that's "in between". It's a basic factor of the digital sampling process that as long as there are at least two samples taken(as would be the case around 20,000Hz)the analog waveform is reproduced exactly. After the DAC conversion the analog waveform is just as continuous as it was before the digital sampling, and that's what we hear. As a practical matter, the LP format can't match this for accuracy.
So it is how each format is processed that gives us differances in sound? Is CD just too good so we hear more of the music including production flaws?Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
So it is how each format is processed that gives us differances in sound?
Yes.Is CD just too good so we hear more of the music including production flaws?
No. Read above.Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU. -
a cd can never be more than a sample of the analog original found on the vinyl.
snap, crackle, pop, wake up. the amount of I know it all on this site is staggering from its K-troll.
pf38 is given bad information, but then that never bothered this fellow before.
RT1 -
John K.
That was amazing. Thanks I really needed that laugh to start my day.
Don't think of Digital as 1's and 0's but rather voltage that rises and lowers within set values which can't rise and lower in an infinite time period...I don't care to follow this question or eventual debate any further but John, again I thank you. -
The "CD" sound many refer to is just stupid recording engineers that don't know how to lay down the music in the digital domain. I've heard CDs made from tape & LP that sound FANTASTIC. Maybe the 'pressing" they do in bulk to make CDs isn't as good as actually burning them, either.
I have some astoundingly good SACDs, and some astoundingly BAD CDs. I recently had a chance to compare 10cc's "The Original Sountrack" on both a burned CD of the original LP (sounded good except for the bloated bass & SNAP-CRACKLE-POP), and a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs Gold CD of the same. MoFi really stepped on their d*(ks with that recording, as well as the "Moving Pictures" MoFI CD I've had for years. The MoFi' are flat & lifeless. So I'm pretty certain that is due to incorrect recording procedures OR a bad source copy.
Frank Zappa had this to say about recording:
[from a Guitar Player Magazine interview with Frank Zappa. Some interesting comments about studio work using technology of the 1980s when this was written. One thing that's not in this particular interview is that Zappa LOVED the coming of digital, primarily because it got rid of tape hiss]
Q-Steve Vai said that the "Peter Gunn" sounding guitar in "Teenage Prostitute" [Drowning Witch] sounded much different after it was mixed than when he recorded it.
FRANK-We can change the sound of just about anything, because we have a lot of sound modifying tools in the studio. When you arrange something, the arrangement is always modified by what comes before it or after it on a side. If you want the side to play smoothly, you may equalize all the different parts of a tune to sound one way, but when you start mixing a whole side -- that's what we do: we start on song one and work through to the end -- to make the continuity work in terms of the tonal quality of the whole side, sometimes we have to change things around drastically.
Q-Then you don't follow a brittle-sounding song with a mushy one.
FRANK-Right, you want to smooth-out the whole spectrum so that when a person puts the needle down at the beginning of the record, they feel that there's a continuity through the whole side. It just makes it easier to listen to.
Q-What's the biggest problem in creating a record from a final tape?
FRANK-The biggest problem about making a record occurs when you go from the magnetic medium to the mechanical medium. Sound on tape has certain problems that you have to deal with, just because of the way the tape works. Sound on a disc has other types of problems that you have to correct because of the way a record works. A record is a mechanical medium; it's based on a little thing wiggling around in a groove. And it's a miracle that that stylus can actually produce music -- especially when you're talking about things that are drastically stereo-imaged. You get into situations with phase cancellation and all sorts of weird stuff that goes on when you try to put it onto a record. And there are always equalization changes when you finish your master tape and when you send it down and get a ref [reference copy]. It never sounds the same when it comes back from the disc cutting place. And so you have to take the time and tweeze it up. Sometimes there are problems on the tape that just can't be fixed.
Q-What are some examples?
FRANK-Those problems usually involve the letter "S" in a vocal part, a high-hat that's half open. Those things are sometimes really obnoxious on a record. And the remedies just to fix that kind of sound -- just to get it to tract correctly on a disc -- involve radical measures, such as using these things called acceleration limiters, which are built into the recording lathe. These are pretty drastic. Let's take a bad "S" in a word like surprise. It sounds okay on tape, but when it comes back on a record, it's all distorted, because it's difficult for the needle to track it. So you either have to use an outboard de-esser [an electronic device that senses powerful highs and selectively chops them out], which finds that frequency and suppresses it for an instant, or use the acceleration limiters on the lathe.
Q-How do they work?
FRANK-They function very drastically; they start at 4k [4,000 cycles per second], and at that point when an "S" appears, they dump the whole top end. So, when it's triggered, it takes the whole top off the tape, and not just the "S." So it's very critical to tweak those things. The guy who cuts the lacquers [the earliest disc in the mastering process] for us is very careful about leaving it on when it's time to get rid of the S's, and turning it off right afterwards. It makes for a lot of manual work, and in order to do it, he works from a sheep of paper with timing numbers. So he'll say, at one minute and twenty-eight seconds turn on the high-frequency limiter to "4," look at the timer, and turn it on at the right time. He doesn't listen to the music; he does it by the numbers. Just turns it on and off. The easy way to do it is to turn on the high-frequency limiter and leave it on. There won't be any S's on the record, but there won't be any top end on it either. We fuss with that type of stuff. We have 30 or 40 refs for the new album [The Man From Utopia] and most people don't do that; they do one, and that's it.
Q-Do you prefer to have your records done with half-speed mastering?
FRANK-The only album that we ever did with half-speed mastering was Joe's Garage. It helps your top end, but it ruins the low end. Let's examine the frequency spectrum of what we're putting on the record. The new album has a lot of information around, 30 cycles [Ed. Note: Low E on a bass guitar is 41.2 Hz], and there's a very full-sounding bottom on some of these tunes. If you were to master that at half-speed, you'd need an equalizer that would have to be looking at 15 cycles. So you get a crisper, but a thinner-sounding record if you master half-speed. On the Joe's Garage album, we used half-speed mastering on all three of those discs, and I'm not totally delighted with the results.
Q-Do you have any examples?
FRANK-Let me give you a very graphic one. We cut it at half-speed, and the stylus can carve very careful, perfect, little high-frequency wiggles on the record. That doesn't mean when it's turned into a stamper and goes onto that vinyl that those wiggles are necessarily going to be there. You may just be fooling yourself. You may hear it great coming off of a reference disc, but not off of a pressing. And that's what I think happened with Joe's Garage. It just didn't carry through all the manufacturing process. Recently, I've cut some normal-speed refs on the Joes's Garage album, and since the time of the original mastering there have been some advancements in normal-speed lathe technology. You can get more level on the record, and so forth. So the new refs sound fantastic. They have plenty of top end and plenty of bottom; they sound much more like the master tape than the half-speed version did.TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
I believe alot of Zappa's newer music was originally recorded (the master) via digital. Many of the newer CD's have the DDD vs. the AAD on the back of the case, denoting the master (D), source (D), and actual CD (D) were all digital (if this makes sense). Now I want to leave work and pop some of these CDs in my new CD player...
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No, PF38; CDs and other digital media aren't missing any musical information that's "in between". It's a basic factor of the digital sampling process that as long as there are at least two samples taken(as would be the case around 20,000Hz)the analog waveform is reproduced exactly. After the DAC conversion the analog waveform is just as continuous as it was before the digital sampling, and that's what we hear. As a practical matter, the LP format can't match this for accuracy.
Wrong..............an analog waveform can never be "reproduced" exactly. That would involve an infinite number of samples which is impossible.
Nice try and thanks for playing
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »a cd can never be more than a sample of the analog original found on the vinyl.
snap, crackle, pop, wake up. the amount of I know it all on this site is staggering from its K-troll.
pf38 is given bad information, but then that never bothered this fellow before.
RT1
I am just trying to understand the science behind it. If someone gives me bad info, I would not really know unless it doesn't make any sence. Like getting 20 Hz from a tweeter from 10 feet!
But, here is another argument. If vinyl is so good, why were CDs invented and took off so well? Was it the wow factor? High tech? Convienience? I understand why tape died but, CD is still going strong after 28 years. Although they are being threatend by MP3 and other computer file stuff. I do know those sound like crap at best and the only thing they offer is convienience.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
To put it in perspective.................MP3's SUCK and most computer files SUCK unless you use the proper procedures. So extrapolate this current trend with the vinyl to cd trend and you'll see it's not about fidelity.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If vinyl is so good, why were CDs invented and took off so well? Was it the wow factor? High tech? Convienience?
You take the run-of-the-mill turntable in an average home and compare that to a run-of-the-mill CD player....CD will win.
Wow factor? Of course! I'm still mesmerized by the spinning silver disc playing in one of those early CD players.
High tech? Way! What's more high tech than "perfect sound forever"?:D
Convenience? You kidding? What do you mean I can instantly skip all those songs in the middle of the album?
Don't forget there was also a big marketing push to have CD replace vinyl. Not to mention Dire Straits' "Brothers In Arms" powering CD over the top. -
I am shocked, there is a debate on CDs vs LPs:eek:
I have both and depending on the recording they both sound best.
Some vinyl like my favorite Poco Blue and Gray never made it to CD and I will put it up againest some of my best sounding CDs.
One of my favorite CDs Johnny A Get inside is pure magic.
Its not either or for me, it is both.
Oh yea, it took a lot more money to make my CDs sound as good as my Vinyl which is a mid-70s Technics SL1300 with Denon 160 cart and CA 640P phono stage. Pretty entry level TT.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
Most music these days is recorded, processed, and mastered digitally anyway.
Moot point.
It's all in the mastering/preparation for vinyl and tha anologue equipment related to the playback of vinyl. -
I always like to use the example of when George Martin remastered and remixed some of the earlier Beatles CDs (NOT the newer mastered ones) such as Rubber Soul, Help, and the first for albums. When Sir George did this, he obviously had to use a totally different mixing board that was not tube based (as was the case when the albums were originally mixed and mastered). The tonality of the entire album is completely different (IMO not for the better). The technical fidelity is better than the original releases were, but all the tone was lost due to using a digital mixing board instead of a tube based analog board. The tonal difference between the two masterings of the early Beatles albums is a good example between the sound of analog vs. digital from a mixing/mastering point of view .
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
After hearing SACD, last week and again today, I'm very happy with the digital domain and the warmth that others mention, heck, I can turn my bass control knob up alittle bit. I like TT sound to and I know the TT, stylus and arm and platter matter there to. But in the end you need REAL GOOD speakers to bring it all together at the END....Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
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tony millard wrote: »After hearing SACD, last week and again today, I'm very happy with the digital domain and the warmth that others mention, heck, I can turn my bass control knob up alittle bit.
I am generalizing, but SACD tends to have a sense of effortlessness to its sound. It certainly sounds more "natural", or analog, than regular CD.
Btw, to a certain degree, regular CDs remastered with DSD also sound better than their "regular" versions. -
In the end it really comes down to the transfer and the mastering. Whether is was done 15-20-30 years ago or today. I've heard many great sounding redbook cd's and I've heard some horrible vinyl.
I see a trend, and I tend to do this myself, looking for older "original" cd releases of stuff if there are one or multiple re-masters available today. I prefer the noisier original Led Zeppelin cd pressings to anything that has been offered thus far. By "cleaning" them up and making them "modern" they have ruined them............that goes for most of the current LZ vinyl offerings as well.
My point is.............that there is a lot at play not just the cd vs vinyl debate. Many, many other factors influence the final product and there can be stars and duds in all mediums.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Wrong..............an analog waveform can never be "reproduced" exactly. That would involve an infinite number of samples which is impossible.
Nice try and thanks for playing
H9
Heiney, please stop spewing your pro-analog, anti-science drivel. Someone might read your posts and assume them to be factual. You do not need infinite sampling rates to reproduce an analog signal perfectly. There are a million reasons why you can't reproduce any signal with 100% accuracy, but your unfounded belief about needing infinite sampling points just isn't true.
If your misconception is true, then why can no one tell the difference between CD and DVD-A. DVD-A can have 4X the sampling rate, yet sound the same to any listener compared to CD. Because most frequencies on a CD are already over specified. Adding more samples does not improve the sound quality. Extra samples are just redundant. There are reasons to oversample, but it's not a technological pursuit to sample at infinity.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98537
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem -
The process of sampling, by necessity, causes a loss of information. If we are only sampling at particular times, for instance, all the information between those two times is lost. Also, because digital signals have less accuracy than analog signals, the sampled values may not even be expressed correctly. The effects of sampling on a signal have a number of names including "Sampling noise", "sampling error", or "converted signal degradation". While this may sound like a terrible situation, there are methods to decreasing this error"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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NM..........not having this discussion again. I've addressed it atleast 1/2dozen times before. The threads are in the archives for anyone who is interested. *yawn*
You believe whatever you want.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
You mean snap, crackle and pop? Yeah, it's definitely got those.Good one F1nut!
Tube buffers are a 'good' idea. I hate that CD harshness. But I am also beginning to think that amps and pres can 'help' take that edge off. Integrated amps like some NADs, for example, have been described as 'warmer' by reviewers....the Onkyo A9555 has also been described this way (with an upgrade Hifi filter intall)....and of, course--a good TUBE pre-amp would be even better. This is an issue that also concerns me....of course there are Tube output CD players like the Raysonic, etc. which I have yet to actually hear...the Bada, Cary, and a number of others...that are not exactly available for chump change!
cnh
:p:p:p:p:p:p Not on my rig!!! Maybe a record here and there but for the most part they're noise free. Now on the other hand CDs ALL have some sort of digital glare and grunge even on my liquidy, vinyl sounding Raysonic CDP.
You can't take a sine wave chop it up into 1's & 0's and bring it back to it's original form. Sure they've found ways to improve that process, i.e. SACD, HDCD but there is still something lost in the translation.
So again my friend Jesse and CNH . . .:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:D -
No, PF38; CDs and other digital media aren't missing any musical information that's "in between". It's a basic factor of the digital sampling process that as long as there are at least two samples taken(as would be the case around 20,000Hz)the analog waveform is reproduced exactly. After the DAC conversion the analog waveform is just as continuous as it was before the digital sampling, and that's what we hear. As a practical matter, the LP format can't match this for accuracy.
With all due respect John, that simply is not true. -
