55 lbs. of Magic or Misfortune.......
Comments
-
It still amazes me how good the SQ can be from well cleaned and cared for vinyl. Nice review Ted!DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Nice review Ted. Is the MF better than it was before now that it has been upgraded.Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
NORTH of 60° -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »
So How did they Sound...........
The Esoteric had plenty of punch yet handled transient dynamic sounds with speed and delicacy. Micro Dynamics were presented from a black background and well handled being neatly kept in place. Pace and timing were right on. The soundstage was slightly wider than the MF and it had more three dimensional depth........so all was great..........yea, but.......after extended listening sessions of 4-5 hours fatigue did set in, the highs began to extend beyond bright and the gain needed to be reduced, things just got a bit edgy.
Continuing On.........
The Musicial Fidelity kept its overall presentation a bit more polite yet without question more musical, I suppose one could say laid back but I would not. Yes, high treble was slightly rolled off and the stage was a bit flatter but in a very nice way. Imaging was superior with the MF with each instrument easily identifed in the stage. The music just poured from the Sound Labs in a way that washed over me and let me just listen without wanting to do anything else. Bass was still well extended but not as present as with the Esoteric. Vocals floated and you could hear the strings of instruments bend and vibrate the sounds of fingers moving over frets or deep breaths for vocal passages were well flushed out.
In the end I would say the Musical Fidelity was the better all around player when compared with benchmarks being musical machines and ease of listening. However, the Esoteric is a fine player and will remain in the rack for DVD-A as well as other discs that need its more forward presentation and punch. Esoteric has contiuned on with there SACD development well beyond this unit and I could certainly see myself moving up the chain within there line of players.
RT1
Great Review! Congrats that you found a more truthful representation of music for extended listening. The problem you mentioned with DV-50 which I highlighted in Bold is a musical truth to me. If you listen to anything for 3 hours or longer, you started to get listener fatigue if the gears are consistence with the music recorded on the media. You are supposed to get that fatigue coz it's how music sounds in the theater and live performances. I doubt anyone can sit in a live performance for longer than a couple of hours without getting a listener fatigue.
I know there are lots of gears that will not cause the listener fatigue and LSi speakers are being one. I could listen to LSi speakers with some very nice gears all day long without a fatigue but you know they lacks on the upper frequencies and roll off smoothly so people think they are laid back and polite. I like LSi speakers for theater settings due to that characteristics and I could watch movies or DVD-A at crazy volume at day long without getting a fatigue.
But I know it's lacking! It's lacking in the upper frequencies as the Ring Radiator tweeter rolls off in the upper frequencies! In movie and DVD-A settings, I don't mind that.
But in two channel critical listening, I prefer to listen to the entire frequency I can hear without any lacking or roll off in any frequency range since I could only crtically listen for a few hours and pay attention to music. After a few hours, I am bored and got to move away from any music.
My point is the problem you think may not be a problem. Otherwise, very nice review, good writeup and I agree completely.
Edit : I also found the Carver Amazings slightly roll off between 100Hz-300Hz but I can live with that.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
First off,great review Ted,and welcome back to the real world.
Personally,I find the older MF gear better than the newer units. Build quality on the older stuff was top notch when they were still being made in Britain. As far as the fatigue you mentioned,could be our older ears are more sensitive to it. I know mine are. Regardless,even when I was younger,those harsh highs were most notable and yet I never experienced it from a live band as some suggest. I know you don't mean you had "harsh" in the highs, but I gather a more edgy sound way up there after a few hours. That would bug me to no end. But hey, thats just me. While you still have both players,it would be nice to see a shootout with the tricked out tubed Rotel being talked about in another thread. Both players are super nice and cater to 2 different crowds it appears. Thanks again for the review Ted.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Nice review Ted. Is the MF better than it was before now that it has been upgraded.
Not really Michael, they improved the transport and chips to correct some read errors, SQ is about the same, my unit still needs to break in some more but the the base sound is still the same. I suspect I will end up with an Esoteric X0-5 or 3, I like to have two quality sources available. I recently passed two nice sources and the tube buffer on to other members so for now I am standing pat with the two I just reviewed but Esoteric continues to make a buzz with SACD units.
RT1 -
Great Review! Congrats that you found a more truthful representation of music for extended listening. The problem you mentioned with DV-50 which I highlighted in Bold is a musical truth to me. If you listen to anything for 3 hours or longer, you started to get listener fatigue if the gears are consistence with the music recorded on the media. You are supposed to get that fatigue coz it's how music sounds in the theater and live performances. I doubt anyone can sit in a live performance for longer than a couple of hours without getting a listener fatigue.
Fatigue in live performances usually is from shear volume NOT from the music itself so I disagree. Real (live) music played in an apporpriate setting (intimate vs. arena) and not played at the upper threshold of painful/damaging volumes should never get fatiguing.
On another note: I spent all day on Saturday literally from 8AM-8PM listening to my new tube amp on my office rig at above normal listening levels, not blasting, and I never reached fatigue or close. I threw everything at the new amp with my favorite tubes and during that 12hrs of almost non-stop listening I was in heaven. That could never happen with transistors unless it was a very forgiving type of design. I could probably do it with the Aleph, but I'm not even sure I would last 12hrs.
Great review Ted. I have fallen furthur into the tube abyss with an ALL tube integrated in the office rig, with simply fantastic NOS tubes. It is simply sublime in my listening space mated with the very modest 5B's. It had me in a trance it sounded soooooooooo gooooooooood. Tickle your insides kind of good!!!!
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Fatigue in live performances usually is from shear volume NOT from the music itself so I disagree. Real (live) music played in an apporpriate setting (intimate vs. arena) and not played at the upper threshold of painful/damaging volumes should never get fatiguing.
H9
I think you misunderstood a little. I don't mean that a listener fatigue will set in only if you listen to outrageous loud live performances for a few hours.
I don't go to Rock and Roll Concerts for the most parts. Listener fatigue is due to the dynamics (peak passages) in the music from the live performances and not associated with the shear volume. After a couple of hours in the live performance, music and everything just becoming noise to me no matter what setting or what sound they are playing. Also, remember that listening to songs repeatedly will make your mind more picky about the annoyances in that music. If you are listening, you are not only listening to the good music! You are listening to the music with both the good and the bad in it. With overtime and repetition, you got more familiar with both the good and the bad but the bad becomes the worse and the good still remains to be the good.
Anyway, what I meant that listener fatigue will set in after a few hours at the liver performances at normal tolerable listening volume. The only thing that you made me think a little is the word "intimate setting" and I am picturing a few things in my mind about it.
Of coz, you can make one system sounds non-fatiguing and listen to it over and over again all days long but what's the point if you can't hear what you should hear it in a few times? You can listen to extended times coz not all the good, the bad and the ugly present in the music played in that system! I don't think I can drink to that as a musical truth.
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »I suspect I will end up with an Esoteric X0-5 or 3, I like to have two quality sources available.
RT1
Its pretty bad when you need more than one $5K+ sources in case one quits working... Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
You are supposed to get that fatigue coz it's how music sounds in the theater and live performances.
No, it doesn't.Build quality on the older stuff was top notch when they were still being made in Britain.
The kW SACD was built in England.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No, it doesn't.
Hell No! I meant after 2 or more hours of listening in the theater. But if you are telling me there is no listener fatigue for 2 or more hours of listening in a live session, I am very interested to know the band, the music type, and the venue.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I have experienced 2 minutes of [unbearable] fatigue with certain bands. You are talking about a live, un-amplified venue.....correct?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
-
Off the top of my head, The Rolling Stones at 3+ hours, no problem and I've sat/stood at 5 hour Grateful Dead concerts with no listener fatigue. Now, in less than 2 hours at a symphony I'll be asleep, but no listener fatigue.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You are talking about a live, un-amplified venue.....correct?
Yes, I am talking about a live performance in large venues that use amplifications or small venues that use instruments only (un-amplified).
Sometimes, I walked out of the live performances in less than 2 minutes if it's too loud or unbearable. It's really damaging your good and precious hearing.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Off the top of my head, The Rolling Stones at 3+ hours, no problem and I've sat/stood at 5 hour Grateful Dead concerts with no listener fatigue. Now, in less than 2 hours at a symphony I'll be asleep, but no listener fatigue.
Well, I can't comment on both bands and instances you mentioned since I am not much of rolling stones fan and R&R listener.
But I got a question, were you paying too much attention to the performance of the band or were you paying attention to listening?
I sometimes fell asleep in the classical concerts after half an hour coz I just can't listen to it anymore and I can't get out from the mass. I guess my brain farts and shuts itself off.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Its pretty bad when you need more than one $5K+ sources in case one quits working...
I know it sounds a little silly but I welcome one of the Master Tube Rollers known as ReelTrouble to the domain of Gear Rollers.
You too are welcome abroad if you decide to roll gears instead of Tubes, MadMax!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
But I got a question, were you paying too much attention to the performance of the band or were you paying attention to listening?
I was enjoying the show.If you listen to anything for 3 hours or longer, you started to get listener fatigue if the gears are consistence with the music recorded on the media. You are supposed to get that fatigue coz it's how music sounds in the theater and live performances. I doubt anyone can sit in a live performance for longer than a couple of hours without getting a listener fatigue.
I have to admit that is one of the strangest comments I've run across concerning music.After a couple of hours in the live performance, music and everything just becoming noise to me no matter what setting or what sound they are playing.
Your comment indicates to me that this issue is yours and is not something that everyone else shares with you.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I received these comments bolded from PolkClyde about his experience with the two players during the shootout and present them for all to read and consider.
Thanks Clyde for you thoughts. RT1
The sound of the Esoteric in my opinion,Cd's are always easy on the ears,
never displaying the sort of upper-midrange/lower-treble harshness that
plagued early digital; but this doesn't come at the expense of openness or
overall resolution"; I think you hear more of the "the recording itself,
not the hardware used to reproduce it." I also favour the gain of the
Esoteric over the musical fidelity player. it's a little forward sounding. I
would love to hear this unit,through my speakers,The Polk SRA 1.2's I'm a
woofer and tweeter type of guy The speakers used in the test were
Electrostatic type,great sound.
Musical fidelity SACD player the sound is solid, non-aggressivee sound
is sublime. Subtle, free of nasty artefacts, laid back,it's hard to pick
between the two players(you can't lose),but the player for me is,
*The ESOTERIC BAR NONE.* -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »I received these comments bolded from PolkClyde about his experience with the two players during the shootout and present them for all to read and consider.
Thanks Clyde for you thoughts. RT1
The sound of the Esoteric in my opinion,Cd's are always easy on the ears,
never displaying the sort of upper-midrange/lower-treble harshness that
plagued early digital; but this doesn't come at the expense of openness or
overall resolution"; I think you hear more of the "the recording itself,
not the hardware used to reproduce it." I also favour the gain of the
Esoteric over the musical fidelity player. it's a little forward sounding. I
would love to hear this unit,through my speakers,The Polk SRA 1.2's I'm a
woofer and tweeter type of guy The speakers used in the test were
Electrostatic type,great sound.
Musical fidelity SACD player the sound is solid, non-aggressivee sound
is sublime. Subtle, free of nasty artefacts, laid back,it's hard to pick
between the two players(you can't lose),but the player for me is,
*The ESOTERIC BAR NONE.*
If that is the case, I need to hear this thing. -
Well, I can't comment on both bands and instances you mentioned since I am not much of rolling stones fan and R&R listener.
But I got a question, were you paying too much attention to the performance of the band or were you paying attention to listening?
I sometimes fell asleep in the classical concerts after half an hour coz I just can't listen to it anymore and I can't get out from the mass. I guess my brain farts and shuts itself off.
The only time I came close to falling asleep at a concert was the time someone slipped me a Lude.JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
george daniel wrote: »The only time I came close to falling asleep at a concert was the time someone slipped me a Lude.
How'd he do that?:D -
hearingimpared wrote: »If that is the case, I need to hear this thing.
Come on down the March, we will do the audio thing in Jacksonville Fla as well.
RT1 -
hearingimpared wrote:How'd he do that?:D
Put it in his hand and said..."take this dude"...?"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Put it in his hand and said..."take this dude"...?
. . . "what is it dude?" . . . "I don't know, it just works!":D -
I've enjoyed the Esoteric lineup since CES 2005, way to go Ted.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
-
Your comment indicates to me that this issue is yours and is not something that everyone else shares with you.
I asked the same question (is the problem is with me only?) myself over a few decades ago. And I found out it's not problem with me. The answer I got is probably both right and wrong. I found many people do not have that problem coz the level of attention we put in the listening is not the same.
I usually don't get listener fatigue in the concerts if I am just listening and not absorbing and watching or talking to someone else in the concerts. But I got the listener fatigue when I am really listening and paying all full attention with heart, mind and most important brain (as analyzing music).
I also got the listener fatigue when I listened to music at home as in the concerts after a few hours but again, I am listening and analyzing both the music and the gears.
I know we perceive and listen to music very differently with different taste. I also know I made a lot of weird comments here that most people might not share but I am interested to find out how many people shares my way of perceiving or interpreting music in this regard.
Ok, my comments come off a bit more weird in this thread but hey, I am from Mars.
Ted, Sorry to derail your thread but Happy Gear Rolling Days for you!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Its not a problem Mega, its all a part of audio and I certainly do not get my panties twisted about about the direction a thread might take as long as its audio, the cooridors of the Rabbit Hole are very wide in some places and tight in others, I think flexability is a key.
So I am headed home for three days......wanna venture a guess as to how much of the next 72 hours will be filled with music based material????????
Go ask Alice when she's Ten Feet Tall.........especially when chasing Rabbits.
RT1 -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »Its not a problem Mega, its all a part of audio and I certainly do not get my panties twisted about about the direction a thread might take as long as its audio, the cooridors of the Rabbit Hole are very wide in some places and tight in others, I think flexability is a key.
So I am headed home for three days......wanna venture a guess as to how much of the next 72 hours will be filled with music based material????????
Go ask Alice when she's Ten Feet Tall.........especially when chasing Rabbits.
RT1
I want to chase some of those rabbits.:eek: -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »Its not a problem Mega, its all a part of audio and I certainly do not get my panties twisted about about the direction a thread might take as long as its audio, the cooridors of the Rabbit Hole are very wide in some places and tight in others, I think flexability is a key.
So I am headed home for three days......wanna venture a guess as to how much of the next 72 hours will be filled with music based material????????
Go ask Alice when she's Ten Feet Tall.........especially when chasing Rabbits.
RT1
RT1, Alice is nothing compared to Mega in size. But I like the fact that some corridors in the Rabbit hole feels tight and some went slippery. It's all for fun and game so I am all good.
That kinda reminds me no matter where the rabbit hole is and where you are in the rabbit hole, you just need to enjoy listening!
I hope you got a good time listening to your new toys!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
hearingimpared wrote: »I want to chase some of those rabbits.:eek:
your rabbit chasing days are over.........your bunny's got a hold on you so tight the mustards fallen off your hot dog.
I had a nice visit with Carly yesterday, GG sent me some top notch hot as hell album covers and the music aint bad either.......then some Erroll Garner
on to the digital............the MF is opening up a bit
41 shots............you need to hear the sax float in, makes for a nervous moment and release........SACD rocks.
RT1 -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »your rabbit chasing days are over.
You can say that again!reeltrouble1 wrote: »........your bunny's got a hold on you so tight the mustards fallen off your hot dog.
LOL!!!reeltrouble1 wrote: »on to the digital............the MF is opening up a bit
41 shots............you need to hear the sax float in, makes for a nervous moment and release........SACD rocks.
RT1
uh oh!
