So my neighbor's kid is no longer a little boy

Demiurge

GMiller wrote: »

Urge, while I'm sure there are differing opinions amongst pediatricians and mental health care workers regarding treatment of transgender youth, I feel certain the parents have become educated advocates for their child. I'm sure they've had exhaustive counsel. Really, if the father is devastated over the loss of a child, don't you think he was dragged kicking and screaming to the point of agreeing to this treatment? And, how many homosexual or transgender people revert to heterosexual behaviour? I'd bet about none for homosexuals and even fewer for the hard-wired transgenders.

Isn't it best to allow the development of this girl to continue with female characteristics and identity, rather than attempt to re-wire her after society and her own confusion have had their way with her during her formative years?

Greg

Neither of us really know the mindset of the parents. I'll give you a best case scenario and say they are the best parents in the world. I would still find them to be wrong and misguided. Perhaps it's easy for me to say not having a male/female child who thinks he/she is really a girl/boy, but I'm confident I'd see things exactly as I do since I have a core parenting philosophy that something like this would conflict with.

I believe it's the role of a parent to raise your child to adulthood and prepare them for it to the best of your ability. I don't think it's the role of parents to make changes to a child's sexual makeup (no pun intended) through drugs when its not a matter of life and death.

They have a responsibility to that child until the age of 18. From then on, that child now adult has a responsibility to take care of himself for the next 60+ years considering an average life expectancy. Why not let this child become an adult and make his own choice? This isn't like deciding whether or not your kid should be allowed to play football or learn to play an instrument, it's altering his ultimate sexual identity because he's having gender issues as a young child.

This all comes down to what's best for the child, and I think that allowing this child to grow up is the way to go. If he still thinks he's a girl at 18 he can wear dresses and get a lopadickoffame for all I care.

fossy

""Venessia said: 'Unfortunately the local school barred us from enrolling Josie,""

That was the best move for that kid. I'm very open minded but this story just doesn't seem like the right move at that age.

Although .........If I were a girl on a tennis team , I'd want Josie for a doubles partner I suppose....:D:D

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

It didn't take long for the buzz words "tolerance" and "acceptance" to get bandied about in several posts, as if to say the child is being looked down upon by anyone who doesn't agree with the choices made by these parents.

Demi,
I used the term tolerance in the context that judgement by people on the mindset or the decisions made by the child and/or the parents are "wrong". I can assure you that my intent was not to bandy them around and pass judgement on peoplkes opinions on the thread (I actually agree witha lot of what was said). But, who's to say what is right and wrong in this case? We don't know the kids or the parents or the circumstances. We ( I say that ecause I am guilty of that as well) read a two paragraph article and immediately start to question the parenting skills of the mother and father, the maturity of the 8 year old (sounds like an oxymoron when I say that), and on and on and on. You name it and it has been said, implied or joked about. All I was stating was that it ISN'T an easy decision and it ISN't as cut and dry.

Some have suggested that the girl wait until she is an adult to deal with a decision of that magnitude. But, I would argue that the added years of personal conflict and in many cases shame of themselves, would be just as damaging and irreperable.

If we all take a step back and objectively look at it (especially ones with kids), I think we all would agree that if the same situation arose with our sons and daughters, we would expect others to extend ourselves the benefit of the doubt with either decision. No more, no less.

obieone

I am NOT attempting to be funny or insensitive, but, what IF she grows up to be butch?
I am NOT, repeat NOT condemning, or judging the **** community, but, it seems as if they made a decision without thinking ahead.
If this turned out to be a 'phase', well, there is NO getting that genie back in the bottle.

everpress

obieone wrote: »

I am NOT attempting to be funny or insensitive, but, what IF she grows up to be butch?
I am NOT, repeat NOT condemning, or judging the **** community, but, it seems as if they made a decision without thinking ahead.
If this turned out to be a 'phase', well, there is NO getting that genie back in the bottle.

You mean 'putting a bottle back on that genie'?

Sorry, sorry... That wasn't good...

SolidSqual

This is crazy. I didn't know there were experts on this stuff. Seriously, I have no problem if you are **** or straight or both or whatever. But, what the hell does an 8 year old know about permanent decisions? Sex-change?

Demiurge

shawn474 wrote: »

Demi,
I used the term tolerance in the context that judgement by people on the mindset or the decisions made by the child and/or the parents are "wrong". I can assure you that my intent was not to bandy them around and pass judgement on peoplkes opinions on the thread (I actually agree witha lot of what was said). But, who's to say what is right and wrong in this case? We don't know the kids or the parents or the circumstances. We ( I say that ecause I am guilty of that as well) read a two paragraph article and immediately start to question the parenting skills of the mother and father, the maturity of the 8 year old (sounds like an oxymoron when I say that), and on and on and on. You name it and it has been said, implied or joked about. All I was stating was that it ISN'T an easy decision and it ISN't as cut and dry.

Some have suggested that the girl wait until she is an adult to deal with a decision of that magnitude. But, I would argue that the added years of personal conflict and in many cases shame of themselves, would be just as damaging and irreperable.

If we all take a step back and objectively look at it (especially ones with kids), I think we all would agree that if the same situation arose with our sons and daughters, we would expect others to extend ourselves the benefit of the doubt with either decision. No more, no less.

Benefit of the doubt? Do you extend parents who molest their children the same benefit of the doubt? Sorry man, but we were blessed with brains to help determine right from wrong. I don't need to be in this situation to figure this one out.

Does it make it easier? Sure, then again nobody has suggested these parents weren't struggling or agonizing over their decision. Regardless, I still think it's the wrong one.

This "acceptance" and "tolerance" stuff is a bunch of crap. Pretending abnormal things are normal is called denial. That doesn't mean this kid shouldn't be loved and nurtured like any other, because he should be.

SolidSqual

Demiurge wrote: »

This "acceptance" and "tolerance" stuff is a bunch of crap.

+1, Responsibility. A parent needs to own it.

shawn474

I won't even entertain the question of molestation; that's so far fetched that it's frankly insulting.

Demiurge wrote: »

That doesn't mean this kid shouldn't be loved and nurtured like any other, because he should be.

Call it crap or whatever else you want, but it's my opinion; we can agree to disagree after all and I respect that. But the quote above is what really matters and something we can both agree on 100%.

Solid, I've never claimed to be an expert on this; just offering an opinion that happens to differ form others - doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa. Just healthy discussion.

Sherardp

Sadly I think the parents need to reconsider. I do however think Joey was at one time normal. Once they adopted the baby from China is when things started to change anyway. I remember it like it was yesterday. Joseph on the otherhand, that guy is just weak IMO, and personally felt like Vanessa ran the house anyway. All he had to do is explain to Joey how things were, not agree with the wife and change the kid. Personally this saddens me, that they would actually do this.

Demiurge

shawn474 wrote: »

I won't even entertain the question of molestation; that's so far fetched that it's frankly insulting.

Why? Because there is only one rational answer? That you'd say "of course I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt." You'd say that because you know it's wrong and there's no justification for it. The answer would be the same if I said verbal or physical abuse, instead.

I think using drugs to change a child's sexual identity is abusive.

shawn474 wrote: »

Call it crap or whatever else you want, but it's my opinion; we can agree to disagree after all and I respect that. But the quote above is what really matters and something we can both agree on 100%.

I agree with that.

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

I think using drugs to change a child's sexual identity is abusive.

So the true experts who are counseling her and the parents, the doctors treating her, etc. are all wrong? It seems the parents are being very pro-active by getting the necessary experts involved BEFORE starting any of the hormone therapy (which by the way is 4 years away). She may very well have a change of heart after seeing these experts. Who knows what that 4 years will bring? And, for the record, the boy states that his sexual identity is being a girl.

I am not at all saying that as a parent I would support this decision, be this open minded, and be this supportive if this was my daughter. What I can tell you is that I have no earthly clue how I would react and I reserve making a concrete statement such as "This is undeniably wrong" because I haven't experienced it. For you to say "it is wrong" is your opinion; for me to say "I don't know if it is" is my opinion. I hardly think that our statements either way define our moral character (just wanted to get that outof the way).:)

Demiurge

shawn474 wrote: »

So the true experts who are counseling her and the parents, the doctors treating her, etc. are all wrong? It seems the parents are being very pro-active by getting the necessary experts involved BEFORE starting any of the hormone therapy (which by the way is 4 years away).

Any expert that says this child should be put on hormone altering meds to alter the sexual makeup of the child is wrong, in my opinion, yes.

I think true experts is subjective...because there are experts that would say this **** isn't natural or right.

There are experts that will tell you Bose makes great speakers. Doesn't make it true.

shawn474 wrote: »

She may very well have a change of heart after seeing these experts. Who knows what that 4 years will bring? And, for the record, the boy states that his sexual identity is being a girl.

Wow, this really says it all. Since when does an 8 year old make these kinds of decisions?

The child is a boy, by the way, he's not a girl. No matter how many times you say it or he says it, it doesn't make it true.

shawn474 wrote: »

I am not at all saying that as a parent I would support this decision, be this open minded, and be this supportive if this was my daughter. What I can tell you is that I have no earthly clue how I would react and I reserve making a concrete statement such as "This is undeniably wrong" because I haven't experienced it. For you to say "it is wrong" is your opinion; for me to say "I don't know if it is" is my opinion. I hardly think that out statements either way define our moral character (just wanted to get that outof the way).:)

That's fine, but you're still defending it, which is what I am taking issue with.

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

That's fine, but you're still defending it, which is what I am taking issue with.

Again, we can agree to disagree. I have stated my opinion and have become redundant and long winded (which is precisely why I first entertained the idea of keeping it to myself). I respect your opinion that I am wrong, but recognize the fact that there are other opinions out there.:D

Demiurge

Grrr...I'm about to drop this because it isn't about you being right or wrong, it's about defending your statements.

It's not like saying "I like Coke and think Pepsi is too sugary and has less fizz." Unless you're really bored, who would bother to argue with that?

Saying that it's OK for an 8 year old to be taking drugs to alter his masculinity because he likes to dress up like a girl and play with dolls is something that would warrant a little more defense and rationale. At least then one would know where you're coming from.

I've given my reasoning as to why I don't think this is OK, but I haven't really heard why it is OK, other than that we should give these parents the benefit of the doubt.

disneyjoe7

As of girls kids "He" makes one cute.

Face

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

As of girls kids "He" makes one cute.

Until it's mustache comes in.

disneyjoe7

LOL:)


So True.

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

Grrr...I'm about to drop this because it isn't about you being right or wrong, it's about defending your statements.

It's not like saying "I like Coke and think Pepsi is too sugary and has less fizz." Unless you're really bored, who would bother to argue with that?

Saying that it's OK for an 8 year old to be taking drugs to alter his masculinity because he likes to dress up like a girl and play with dolls is something that would warrant a little more defense and rationale. At least then one would know where you're coming from.

I've given my reasoning as to why I don't think this is OK, but I haven't really heard why it is OK, other than that we should give these parents the benefit of the doubt.

If you can show me where I said I support the decision for an 8 year old to go through with a sex change, please point it out. I simply stated (maybe not so eloquently) that instead of calling out the parents and questioning their child rearing skills to give them the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't an easy decision and that they had gathered years of information as well as the experience of living with a conflicted child who is able to express themself to come to a decision to support their child - whether or not it is "right or wrong" that isn't for me to judge.

I subscribe to the theory that the parents have been proactive in the situation, lived with a conflicted 8 year old, obtained psychiatric counseling, met with professionals in the field of Transgender Youth, seen doctors, dealt with the feeling that something hasn't been right for the past 4 years and could authorize hormone therapy at age 12 if the child chose to do so. You simply subscribe to the theory that it is wrong. And both points of view are OK.

nooshinjohn

so here you go...

Demiurge

shawn474 wrote: »

If you can show me where I said I support the decision for an 8 year old to go through with a sex change, please point it out. I simply stated (maybe not so eloquently) that instead of calling out the parents and questioning their child rearing skills to give them the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't an easy decision and that they had gathered years of information as well as the experience of living with a conflicted child who is able to express themself to come to a decision to support their child - whether or not it is "right or wrong" that isn't for me to judge.

You seem to be defending the parents decision to do this to an 8 year old because experts support it and they must know what they're doing, however you're not exactly bluntly stating your opinion.

I keep asking why they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, and more to the point, how do you justify altering the sexual identity of an 8 year old with drugs?

shawn474 wrote: »

I subscribe to the theory that the parents have been proactive in the situation, lived with a conflicted 8 year old, obtained psychiatric counseling, met with professionals in the field of Transgender Youth, seen doctors, dealt with the feeling that something hasn't been right for the past 4 years and could authorize hormone therapy at age 12 if the child chose to do so. You simply subscribe to the theory that it is wrong. And both points of view are OK.

Do you think for yourself? I don't care what the parents think. I don't care what the experts think. I don't care what the 8 year old thinks. I want to know what you think.

Is changing the sexual identity of an 8 year old (or 12 year old) the right thing to do?

Yes or no answer.

If yes, why?

Monster Jam

nooshinjohn wrote: »

so here you go...

Nice! Usually its Keiko coming through in the clutch with the A+ soft ****!

But then I started to worry, given the thread topic of course... :eek:

nooshinjohn

Let me assist here.... I was going to stay out of this part of the debate, but here I go. There are several schools of thought as to the causes of Gender Dysphoria, which is the correct term for what we are discussing here. There is no evidence whatsoever to support there being external (environmental) causes for these feelings. Genetic factors or biologic factors are the most common causes. It is known that when a fetus is in the womb, certain hormones are produced by the developing child that shape the developement of the brain, creating neural connections and imprinting the very basics of identity and self awareness. It is also known that the brains of such children as the one we are discussing have received either the wrong hormones in developement or not enough of them.

I believe that the psychology and medical professionals are doing what is best for this boy(he is still a boy). I do not have all the facts here so I am winging it. I believe that at THIS point such a descission is quite early and all that can be done to try and bring this child up as a boy should be done. If at the end of the next 4 years those efforts fail, then he should be given the choice to begin her journey as she sees fit, as the effects of testosterone on the body can NEVER be undone. If she chooses to become a woman she should not have to deal with the abuse and harrassment that comes with waiting until her twenties to begin. I personally know a couple people that have been on this path and for one it was easy as she started early. The other was beaten nearly to death, and never really had a chance as they looked more like a football player to start with. Had she begun early, her life and the results of her efforts would have been very different.

The bottom line is that everything should be done with the greatest of care, under strict medical supervision, and with the well being of the child first and foremost.

nooshinjohn

Monster Jam wrote: »

Nice! Usually its Keiko coming through in the clutch with the A+ soft ****!

But then I started to worry, given the thread topic of course... :eek:

As well you should... she transitioned at age 12 or 13:)

BIZILL

read the thread title and figured you were gonna tell us your neighbor kid done grew upped and robbed ya.

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

You seem to be defending the parents decision to do this to an 8 year old because experts support it and they must know what they're doing, however you're not exactly bluntly stating your opinion.

I keep asking why they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, and more to the point, how do you justify altering the sexual identity of an 8 year old with drugs?





Do you think for yourself? I don't care what the parents think. I don't care what the experts think. I don't care what the 8 year old thinks. I want to know what you think.

Is changing the sexual identity of an 8 year old (or 12 year old) the right thing to do?

Yes or no answer.

If yes, why?

So in short you ARE consumed with who is right and who is wrong. I cannot explain it any more than I already have. I apologize if it seems that my stance is unclear to you.

You ask if I think it is OK. I explained that given the same situation I would do exactly what the parents did and gather as much information as possible from people who are "experts" in the field and formulate my opinion from there. I cannot say what that decision would be due to the complicated nature of this topic. Much of it would depend on what the child expresses to me, the daily experience of living with someone with these feelings and wanting to support them, as well as the input from the doctors, psychologists, researchers, etc. I AM NOT JUDGING IF IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG BASED ON A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE.

I am a parent of 2 daughters and am not naive enough to think that this is as easy as saying "This is not normal" when you have doctors, psychologists, educators and "experts" stating that this is real. You seem to be content with giving the child a stern talking to, supressing the feelings of the child, waiting until they are 18, and that makes it all ok. I assure you I don't think that is the "right" thing to do either.

You don't care what the parents, expert or child thinks? Isn't that the root of this? If you were in the same situation with your child, would you care about that? I certainly would and that would help formulate my opinion as a parent. Your mind is already made up it seems.

So my stance is "Shawn does not know what he would do given the same set of circumstances." And I am not saying that I am right in this discussion - it is simply my opinion.

Demiurge

shawn474 wrote: »

So in short you ARE consumed with who is right and who is wrong. I cannot explain it any more than I already have. I apologize if it seems that my stance is unclear to you.

No, I'm asking you to take a position. Simply defaulting to experts, the parents, and the child being more educated than the rest of us is a cop out and an excuse for you not to use your own brain to form your own position on whether you think it's right for an 8 year old to be taking hormone drugs to alter his sexual identity. I'm not asking you to definitively state what you'd do.

It's rather straightforward...there's no right or wrong answer, only an opinion. :eek:

shawn474 wrote: »

You ask if I think it is OK. I explained that given the same situation I would do exactly what the parents did and gather as much information as possible from people who are "experts" in the field and formulate my opinion from there. I cannot say what that decision would be due to the complicated nature of this topic. Much of it would depend on what the child expresses to me, the daily experience of living with someone with these feelings and wanting to support them, as well as the input from the doctors, psychologists, researchers, etc. I AM NOT JUDGING IF IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG BASED ON A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE.

Nobody is asking you to judge, so quit spazzing. All I am asking is what's posted above. Is it or isn't it OK for an 8 year old to be taking hormone drugs to alter his sexual identity?

It's not too hard to give an opinion.

shawn474 wrote: »

I am a parent of 2 daughters and am not naive enough to think that this is as easy as saying "This is not normal" when you have doctors, psychologists, educators and "experts" stating that this is real. You seem to be content with giving the child a stern talking to, supressing the feelings of the child, waiting until they are 18, and that makes it all ok. I assure you I don't think that is the "right" thing to do either.

lol...

Oddly enough, your stance on this issue that you seem to have a hard time giving becomes clearer and clearer the more you tell us what you think others would do. No, I don't think the child should be given a "stern talking to," or have his "feelings suppressed," until they are 18. I've never implied anything of the sort.

Simply put, the boy is a boy and I wouldn't be using drugs to alter his body in this way no matter how much he thinks he's a girl. If he wants to be more of a girl when he's 18 by taking drugs or maybe even having a medical procedure, he can make that life long choice when he's of the legal age to weigh the benefits and consequences to his life on his own.

shawn474 wrote: »

You don't care what the parents, expert or child thinks? Isn't that the root of this? If you were in the same situation with your child, would you care about that? I certainly would and that would help formulate my opinion as a parent. Your mind is already made up it seems.

In context of my effort to extract your opinion from you so you stop dancing around actually giving one, no I don't care what the child, parents, or experts think. I thought I made that pretty clear.

shawn474 wrote: »

So my stance is "Shawn does not know what he would do given the same set of circumstances." And I am not saying that I am right in this discussion - it is simply my opinion.

I can see you're just not going to get this, but I'll repeat it anyways. You're not giving an opinion on whether you think what is being done to the child is right or wrong. I didn't ask what you would do. I asked whether you think this is right.

No matter what you say you can't be wrong, even if I or others disagree with you.

inspiredsports

This whole thread is really disturbing. I thank God every day that my wife, 4 kids and I are basically a throwback to the "Leave it to Beaver" days.

shawn474

Demiurge wrote: »

No, I'm asking you to take a position. Simply defaulting to experts, the parents, and the child being more educated than the rest of us is a cop out and an excuse for you not to use your own brain to form your own position on whether you think it's right for an 8 year old to be taking hormone drugs to alter his sexual identity. I'm not asking you to definitively state what you'd do.

It's rather straightforward...there's no right or wrong answer, only an opinion. :eek:




Nobody is asking you to judge, so quit spazzing. All I am asking is what's posted above. Is it or isn't it OK for an 8 year old to be taking hormone drugs to alter his sexual identity?

It's not too hard to give an opinion.



lol...

Oddly enough, your stance on this issue that you seem to have a hard time giving becomes clearer and clearer the more you tell us what you think others would do. No, I don't think the child should be given a "stern talking to," or have his "feelings suppressed," until they are 18. I've never implied anything of the sort.

Simply put, the boy is a boy and I wouldn't be using drugs to alter his body in this way no matter how much he thinks he's a girl. If he wants to be more of a girl when he's 18 by taking drugs or maybe even having a medical procedure, he can make that life long choice when he's of the legal age to weigh the benefits and consequences to his life on his own.



In context of my effort to extract your opinion from you so you stop dancing around actually giving one, no I don't care what the child, parents, or experts think. I thought I made that pretty clear.



I can see you're just not going to get this, but I'll repeat it anyways. You're not giving an opinion on whether you think what is being done to the child is right or wrong. I didn't ask what you would do. I asked whether you think this is right.

No matter what you say you can't be wrong, even if I or others disagree with you.

Demi,
With all due respect it is clear that your feelings on the situation jade any type of deviation that others may have. It seems you won't be happy until I somehow submit to your reasoning and take your definitive stance. I am telling you that in my humble opinion, I cannot take such a stance given the way that the facts that are presented right now. Personally I would find it irresponsible to take such a hardened position based on what a newspaper article says - I am sure that there is much more information that isn't being reported. How hard is that to comprehend? I am tapping out on this one. You can state definitively that it is wrong and I respect that. Respect my position - I have never been afraid to say "I don't know."

Shawn

apphd

Sherardp wrote: »

Sadly I think the parents need to reconsider. I do however think Joey was at one time normal. Once they adopted the baby from China is when things started to change anyway. I remember it like it was yesterday. Joseph on the otherhand, that guy is just weak IMO, and personally felt like Vanessa ran the house anyway. All he had to do is explain to Joey how things were, not agree with the wife and change the kid. Personally this saddens me, that they would actually do this.

This adds some insight to things. I wonder if the professionals are aware of this? I wonder if the parents are aware of this? Sometimes people on the outside looking in can see things that those very close to the subject can not, or will not admit to themselves. Maybe the mother always wanted a girl, and poured out so much attention and affection to the poor disadvantaged adopted girl the boy felt discarded. Could be the kids jealous, and this is how he's expressing it. Which if that's the case, promoting it could really screw the kid up. Again we know so little it's hard to draw a line and say 100% without doubt what is right and wrong. Most of us want the best for our children. But to quote a movie line: You need a license to drive, you need a license to fish, you need a license to get married, but anyone can become a parent."