Dedicated Outlet

polkatese · March 2003

All,
I am interested to wire a dedicated outlet for the gears. For those that have done this, could you share what it involves? If I hire an electrician, how much is this going to cost (ballpark is fine), and more importantly, what does he has to do? I am assuming is not as simple as running a dedicated line from the main switchboard to the wall outlet? Am I off base here? Thanks in advance....

mantis · March 2003

good question,
your looking at about 100 bucks.Some are alittle more,most are alittle less.
Yes all it involves is running a line to the fusebox,on a 20 amp circuit.Thats what you want.Then nothing will be on that line except your gear/Tv/Sub.You sub is not near your gear correct.If I remember correctly,it's on the left side of your fireplace.You can jump off your dedicated line to the sub location to share the cleaner power.I plan on doing this for the theater.

F1nut · March 2003

$60.00 for the labor and $50.00 for a PS Audio power port, all is good. It is a simple job if you know what you're doing.

TonyPTX · March 2003

Mantis, I'm assuming your estimate is labor only?

I'd guess a job like such (done properly and professionally) would take 2-3 hours. Not sure what the going rate for an electrician is (but I'd guess 45-50/hour). A quality 20 amp breaker should cost you about $7.00 and 50' of 12-3 NM-B wire about $20. (Assumption here is that you have a spare slot to drop a new breaker circuit in)

As for some tips, I wouldn't use anything less than 12 gauge wire (no matter what the electrician says). He'll try to get you to pick the thinner gauge because it's easier to work with. Hardest part will be getting the line into the breaker panel. That plus the fact that everything inside is HOT unless you pull the plug on the entire house when you install the breaker (good recomendation) as it is not advisable to work in a breaker panel with the cover removed and it still being hot! When you work with 4160V, 3P, 60HZ in 7/0 wire (~ 0.5" in diameter) once in your life, you gain a whole new appreciation for electricians. HOT STUFF!!!!!!!!

polkatese · March 2003

you are correct, Dan, the sub is on the left corner of the fireplace. I ordered the PS Audio power port, thanks F1nut. Is there a site that would give me a general direction on doing it myself? hopefully it doesn't involve fishing the cable thru the drywall, thanks..

polkatese · March 2003

Tony,
that's great information, looks like I might have to call the professional on this...

mantis · March 2003

Yes I quoted labor only......sorry I wasn't clear on that.
Polkatese,
if your not into fishing wires in the walls,then don't do this yourself.Save yourself the headache and pay a qualified electrician to wire it.It's not alot of money considered what you own man.........

polkatese · March 2003

Dan,
can't agree more, besides, if I do it myself, it might turn into two weekend project....

F1nut · March 2003

I've got to agree, it's well worth the money to have it done right and no code problems, etc. I think you'll like the power port, my guy thought I was crazy to spend that much on a outlet, but then he's not into audio.

mantis · March 2003

F1nut,

my guy thought I was crazy to spend that much on a outlet, but then he's not into audio.

Man I can't say it enough,the price of a given thing is in the beholder.I think even small levels of perfromnce gains are well worth it.If it costs alot,but you get an improvement,what the hell, you only live once.

I don't think any rock needs to remain unturned.If it helps......... man I want to try it.:cool:

dorokusai · March 2003

I wired the power port myself, not hard job, but you must be educated about electricity, and take precautions. USE A MULTIMETER! I am not an electrician.

This was what I did exactly:

Materiels - 2/ 35ft runs of #14 solid copper wire(NEC)
1 Multimeter
1 Insulated #2 screwdriver
1 pair Wire Cutters
1 Knife or Linemans Tool
1 Power Port Outlet
4 Wire Caps
1 Outlet Cover
1 Drunk friend to use instead of Multimeter

1: Determined what breaker was involved. 20 amp 2 Pole(2 wires). Removed breaker panel cover. Check voltage with multimeter(110 AC)
2: Turned breaker off. Check breaker with multimeter(0 AC). Checked far end w/ multimeter(0 AC). Millivolts, may be present and is just residual energy, and bleed over voltage. Just don't stick your tongue on the contacts.
3: Removed far end outlet cover and outlet.
4: Removed wires from breaker. One at a time, and screw cap on it to be safe. I used an insulated screwdriver.
Optional: After you remove both wires, cut them far enough away from hot portion of box(Middle).
5: Taped existing wires to new wires and used existing as a fishtape. By tape I mean, make fishhooks with each pair of wires, hook them together, and tape entire junction and ends so there is nothing to snag. should look like a smooth run of wire, with a chubby spot(Where you made your "knot")
6: Pulled new wires to breaker panel. Pull extra.
7: Cut far end and wired new outlet, just like previous outlet. 2 wires and the ground was already present in my gang box. If your gang box is plastic, and no ground is present, it is grounded at your breaker panel, no worries. Metal gang boxes must be grounded.
8: Push extra wire into wall and secured new outlet and new cover.
9: Stripped the 2 new wires at breaker panel, added caps and inserted/ secured, one at a time into the 2 receptacles on 20 amp breaker.
10: Turned breaker on, check voltage with multimeter(110 AC). I didnt hear my friend scream, so I went to far end and checked voltage there also(110 AC).
11: Dressed up wires carefully, and replaced breaker panel cover.
12: Marked breaker as "Bad Mo-Fo Hi-Fi" and cracked beer.

If I forgot anything please let me know, but that was outta my head, and what I did. You could also wire a new breaker with your new ends. Pop the old breaker out, its easy, and pop new one in.

Wrenches for your plans to do this may be that you don't have a single outlet situation like I had. I was also pulling to an unfinished room, from a finished one, that helped alot(Less closed walls). In addition, most outlets in a room are daisy chained to one another, so you may find you have FOUR wires at that outlet instead of two. If thats the case you need to determine which outlet is being fed from your "project" outlet. When you determine your "Pull" pair, cap the other two wires present and restore power after rewiring outlet with your "Pull" pair. Plug something into the adjacent outlets, if that object does not work, then that is the daisychained outlet. THAT outlet may also be daisy chained, which could mean that you are disrupting service to multiple outlets. There are other variables, and the more outlets involved, the more it will cost you to have an electrician to install that ONE "project" outlet for you. It isn't just about one outlet. $60.00/ labor would be a perfect situation only.

This is just fyi, feel free to do what you wish. At least take a look at what you have to do, if it is what I had, go for it. If not, call someone, or buy a Home Depot book.

GOOD LUCK

F1nut · March 2003

Originally posted by dorokusai
Marked breaker as "Bad Mo-Fo Hi-Fi

Excellent idea

I see you're right down the road from me, ever had the cheesebugers at the Sunshine store?

Welcome to the forum!
F1

dorokusai · March 2003

I noticed that also F1Nut, lol. I just moved to Damascus from Germantown a year ago..the only "Lo-Tech" eateries Ive been to are: J&P Pizza(Awesome greasy NY style), Jimmy Cone, Red Rooster and Bob & Ray's(Breakfast). Where is Sunshine burger? I go through Brookeville every couple days as a back way from our office in Hanover/ Elkridge. Nice little town, thats Rte. 97 rite? I like F1/IMSA/SCCA, Summit Point used to be my second home on weekends. NO Nascar can compete with a souped up Pinto screaching around turn 5 at 80 miles an hour...priceless. :eek: Talk to you later!

Ron-P · March 2003

I've got to agree, it's well worth the money to have it done right and no code problems, etc.

Just remember, in most cities you will need to pull a permit, add that to the cost.

I ran two dedicated 20 amp lines into the Driftwood. It took all of 1 hour. Very easy to do, although I did have attic access and no walls to run through.

Peace Out~:D

TonyPTX · March 2003

Originally posted by Ron-P

I ran two dedicated 20 amp lines into the Driftwood. It took all of 1 hour. Very easy to do, although I did have attic access and no walls to run through.

For referrence, how much did your permit cost?

I promise I won't tell a soul...

dorokusai · March 2003

Cost will vary by state and county, and permit applied for. I personally do not know what permits cost. Permits may not be needed for repair of existing internal construction of your personal home. If it is an apartment, or condominium, you need some more permission. I mean, you don't need a permit to change a light bulb, and that is as general a repair as an outlet per se, but some states are crazy.

Just follow NEC( http://www.nfpa.org/nec/ ), and all that work could have been in place before your occupancy....<wink wink>. If you start a fire, burn your house down, and you were using lamp cord to run wall wire, you may have a permit problem. Also an insurance problem.

Ron-P · March 2003

For referrence, how much did your permit cost?

No permit for me bro.

In a sit'tation like this, no need to pay for a yes man.

Peace Out~:D

F1nut · March 2003

dorokusai,

It's the store on the corner of 97 and 650. As my neighbor stated to me when I moved here, "Man, you haven't lived until you've had a Sunshine burger." If you want to hook up and have a burger/ talk some audio, drop me a email at jvrestore@aol.com.

F1

del44 · March 2003

FWIW . If you are going to be using a 20 amp circuit. wire that is 12 guage or lower is what you need. You can use 14 guage wire if the breaker is 15 amps. Check your local codes.

polkatese · March 2003

Guys,
thanks for all the input, it's very helpful. Now the next task is to find a licensed electrician. I stumbled into this posting on asylum, can anybody confirm how likely is this? it seems plausible to happen (logical), what do you think?
Let's assume it's indeed happened, upping the fuse amp should take care of business, right?

Posted by audioengr (M) on March 06, 2003 at 13:06:46

I have a friend in town that uses my cables. Well, he recently upgraded his AC wiring, putting in 10-gauge 20-amp circuits. When he plugged his B&K 5-channel amp in and the caps started to charge up, it immediately blew fuses. He sent it to the local stereo store where he purchased it a couple of years ago for troubleshooting.
He also called me and told me about this. I suspected that the new line voltage was so high due to the new heavy AC wiring, that there was no drop at all, and the voltage in Portland is usually 122 VAC, so the fuse was popping because the fuse was sized based on typical voltages and line drops. Sure enough, when he plugged the amp into an older 15-amp circuit, the replacement fuse did not blow. This is a good learning for those installing heavy wiring and also for B&K, who could be more careful in selecting the proper fuse - maybe a 20 amp or a slo-blo?

dorokusai · March 2003

Sounds plausible to me. Small spikes in voltage, hi or low cause strange things to happen.

SDA SRS 1.2 · March 2003

Highly recommend the electrician and the dedicated outlet. It does make a difference in feeding a hungry amp!

Tour2ma · March 2003

Originally posted by polkatese
Guys... I stumbled into this posting on asylum, can anybody confirm how likely is this? it seems plausible to happen (logical), what do you think?
Let's assume it's indeed happened, upping the fuse amp should take care of business, right?

Sounds like a load of doo-doo to me... Anybody that suggests an audio manufacturer use slo-blo's in the power supply to their equipment does not know what he is talking about. Fast blo's are there to prevent damage just like they did in this case. The guy who did the installation probably eff'd it up. It's conceivable he even ran 220V by accident. A 40 run of 10 gauge wire vs. 12 gauge is not going to make a difference in the delivery of voltage spikes period.

You NEVER want to change the rating of your equipments in-line fuse. "Can you say, Bye-bye warranty? I knew you could. and you say that right after you say bye-bye amp, or AVP, or whatever Any delay in the line fuse doing its job means one order of fried electronics coming right up.

Polkatese, as ball parks go the estimates you've received a fine, but it's all going to come down to how long a run and how complicated is it, i.e., as mantis said attic run vs. wall run. Other big factor I did not see (but may have missed) is whether or not you have space for an added breaker in your existing breaker box. If not, you have to buy an external box and that adds a chunk.

I've installed several circuits in my past three homes, and have learned slowly, but surely a few tricks on how to do it right. And trust me, I started out cheap Charlie wrong.

One thing to consider, especially if you either have the room in your existing breaker box or need an added box for even one run, go ahead and do two runs as Ron did. Use one for amps and the other for your AVP and source equipment. Two essentially parallel runs should not drive up the labor that much more, and most of your total cost will likely be labor, so as long as hes there

Finally get at least three estimates, and get them for one run and two runs. Some wont want to come out to give an estimate without you paying a service fee eff them. There are plenty of fish in the sea. In addition to the prices they quote in writing, you can get a feel for who knows what theyre doing, will be reliable, and is just the best person. Its worth a few extra bucks to get a contractor you have a good feeling about vs. Mr. Low-Bidder who was late and mumbled and

polkatese · March 2003

Tour2ma,
thanks for your comments, it's very helpful. I did a bit of research today, and confirmed a few things:
- there are about 5 more slots inside the breaker box
- checked with one certified electrician co. and they want $29.95 to come and estimate, but it will be applied to the actual work if I hire him to do the work. Needless to say, I hung up
- all of the existing conv outlets are wired using 12 gauges, and 15amp
- I estimated that this would be a semi difficult job, since the distance from the box to the outlet is about 25 ft straight line (happen to be on the same side of the house, but crossing over the garage and a bedroom)
- Options to run the wire would be thru the outer stucco (using pipe) which is not optimal since it will not be cosmetically appealing, goes up thru the attic (it's a two storey house) and drop on the other side, or thru the drywall (which would make it a real project, going thru the insulation, fire beam, frame, etc.) My option right now, at the minimum, is to replace the outlet with PS Audio port (should be in by next week), find a referral from the dealer that I bought the Rotel (that happen to do custom HT wiring also). Thanks for the suggestion on getting two runs quote, it makes a lot of sense. Stay tuned....

Tour2ma · March 2003

Oh Great, a 2 story.. tougher pulls and more $$$.

First, don't forget to drop an outlet in the amp circuit by the REL.

Second, I understand the reluctance to run conduit under the eave, etc. But if you can handle the looks of running conduit up the side of the house from the box, through the attic and then down the outside of the house where the HT is... it will make the job easier. Cosmetically you can run conduit out of the bottom of the box (you always want to go in and out of the bottom to prevent rain entry) along the base of the house (can even bury it), then run up next to a downspout (if you're house is guttered) and repeat on the side where you drop to the HT room.

Otherwise you're facing some drywall repair on the second floor. Holes will have to be bored thru the 2x4's to pass the wire from the attic to the ground floor. You are likely facing some of this in your HT room as well to get the outlets close to your equip and that second outlet to the REL across the room.

When you get estimates, get them for both these routes and the under-the-eave-across-the-garage as well and you may find that the conduit might not look so bad after all...

Late thought: Also have them look at burying a run under the driveway... might be the best esthetics/ cost compromise.

And one added thought on that other post where the guy tried to blow up his B&K amp. I don't think he wired 220. There are three wires in Romex, two for the circuit and one for ground. I think it's likely he attached one hot lead and the grounding wire to his outlet. Plug in and the B&K completes the circuit and BOOM a short to ground right through the amp... now that's a power spike! :eek:

polkatese · March 2003

Tour2ma,
running the conduit along the base of the house seems like the right solution. I will get the estimate and let you know how it goes. Thanks a bunch!

Tour2ma · March 2003

You're welcome my friend...

TonyPTX · March 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma

And one added thought on that other post where the guy tried to blow up his B&K amp. I don't think he wired 220. There are three wires in Romex, two for the circuit and one for ground. I think it's likely he attached one hot lead and the grounding wire to his outlet. Plug in and the B&K completes the circuit and BOOM a short to ground right through the amp... now that's a power spike! :eek:

Not likely....although not wired to code, hot on one side and ground on the other should technically work. If you ever pay attention to your breaker box, the neutral bus is jumpered to the ground bus, so in essence, the neutral line (white) can be used as a ground. I know this is true because I did an extensive wiring project in my sisters old house (circa 1945) and replaced a few two pronged outlets with 3 pronged outlets so she could use a microwave, etc.... Since the house predated 3 conductor Romex (some nasty stuff wrapped in a felt cloth wrap covered in what looked like wax and tar but still had black and white conductors inside) Anyway, I just ran a jumper line between the ground tap and the neutral line at the outlet.) Once again, not up to todays code, but certainly acceptable for "old work".

F1nut · March 2003

Originally posted by polkatese
- checked with one certified electrician co. and they want $29.95 to come and estimate, but it will be applied to the actual work if I hire him to do the work.

That is a sound business practice and is actually the sign of a first rate company. To start with, it generally weeds out someone who isn't serious. Time is money and you're asking a highly skilled person for his time, to pay him for that is only fair. When a company doesn't charge for an estimate it is ususally because they see it as a way to get business, so why do they need business, could it be because they aren't any good? If you take your car into the shop and then decide not to have the work done, they will charge you for their time. You either pay it or you won't get your car back and you brought it to them! Why do people (and I'm in no way picking on you polkatese) think that a service business is suppose to give free estimates??? I own a "service business" and you're damn right, I charge for estimates (alot more than the above company) and I've got more business than I can handle.

Steps off his soapbox......

There are a few other options to getting clean power, perhaps more costly, but options none the less. PS Audio has a Ultimate Outlet that plugs into an exisiting outlet and will reduce A/C line noise by 40db or 100x reduction in noise. They also have three different Power Plants that generate their own balanced A/C, totally free of artifacts plus provide surge/spike protection.

polkatese · March 2003

F1Nut,
that's a fair statement, and I don't mind paying for the fee if I am sure of this company's reputation. The problem is that I picked their name from the web, with no referral from anybody. I am also in the service business, and in my line of work, we spend so much time "scoping" the customer requirements at no cost. We look at those time as investment, towards building relationships and show our qualifications, and give the customers an opportunity to assess our credentials. We win some and lose some, it's the cost of doing business. Just my perspective...

I did explore the ultimate outlet options, boy, you are right, they are pricy ($300-$400). Thanks for your help, though. I was reading the PS Audio writeup on their power port, it is interesting that they don't mention (or I might missed it somewhere) of running the dedicated line. Reading it gave me the impressions that replacing the outlet alone would be a big enough improvement, which I am anxiously waiting for the shipment of those power port to experience it myself....

F1nut · March 2003

I respect your perspective and wonder what your company's bottom line would be if they started charging for those estimates, could be interesting.......

You're right about PS, they don't mention it anywhere. Since I did both at the same time, I can't comment on it. They do imply a improvement just by changing the outlet.....hmmmm, maybe I'll give them a call.

Dedicated Outlet

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