Dog mauled while defending owners against mountain lion

Lord Vader

snow wrote: »

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

I would like to introduce you to Manticore and Seigfrid & Roy, but I wouldn't fear the Tiger... I hear Roy has a nasty bite.

hearingimpared

ryanjoachim wrote: »

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

Humans don't have instinct. We have intelligence. That is one of the things that separate us from animals. We do have a flight or fight response which is a decision based thought not instinct.

ryanjoachim wrote: »

We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail,

There are plenty of people on death row. We have laws that if you break them, murder being the worst, the penalty is severe. Some of the mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers are alive in prison because either the state in which the crime was committed doesn't have the death penalty or there were some mitigating circumstances. Either way they have been dealt with.

ryanjoachim wrote: »

but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.

Do you propose we have the same laws for animals that kill or maul humans? How about an animal prison and I don't mean a zoo.

Shall we put them on trial just because "it does the only thing it knows to do" which is kill regardless as to whether it was hungary or protecting its turf due to instinct?

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

They are set aside for us to enjoy. Sometimes they are managed by fools who think nature will just balance itself out. Good example is near where I lived. They had a Wildlife protected Zone (Yale Forrest) where they decided to stop hunting. Well the deer population exploded, and then they were weak and sick(diseased). So the Coyotes had some easy meals for a good stretch. Now the coyote population boomed. The food population couldn't support it. Well all these educated animal rights activist were losing their cats and dogs left and right. Long story short people were brought in to harvest the over population of coyotes. Guess what the deer population exploded again. This time they gave out a managed number of permits like they used to before. Please I grew up in the country. I knew game wardens. I still talk to a biologist who hunts and fishes regularly. Lesson is be smart and kill the bad kitty;) Populations need to be managed in many areas. We have learned a lot in the last 30 years:)

I am not into this too much but what is the true definition of over population?

Who sets the number of population? It's the natural order in the wild to kill or to be killed. Coyotes will naturally starve to death or from fights among them if they have little or no source of foods. It takes times, of coz to correct the course by the nature.

I don't know but I wouldn't call a wildlife protected zone when people stick their hands or nose or thoughts into it too much. Wildlife is wildlife and natural order will take care of that and extinction and preserving is left to the mother nature.

ben62670

So now you are saying protect the poor kitty, but let thousands of animals die of starvation and disease? It's OK if animals go extinct on their own than have human intervention keep a healthy heard? People can do good things in nature;)

POIDOG

The real question to ask ourselves, is this potential lions' death any more cruel than what lies ahead? The honor of living is the right to die. This lion will accept whatever fate comes it's way. It's not hung up with with human emotions, nor expects them to save it's life, nor will it vote in the next election. People, get over this lions demise. It may not realize it went off the reservation, but it will understand it's fate life is not forever on this plain. Even the cat knows that, gun or old age, it's all cruel! :eek:

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

So now you are saying protect the poor kitty, but let thousands of animals die of starvation and disease? It's OK if animals go extinct on their own than have human intervention keep a healthy heard? People can do good things in nature;)

You are taking it a bit too far in an offensive way!

Kill the Kitty? Do not kill the Kitty? I don't know! I left it to the expert who deals with it. We as Human got to do what we got to do, are we clear about this?

Dealing with this type of thing requires, and depends on the social and political resources as much as the technical knowledge of how close we live in the nature and how much we have learn to interpret the true reason of what an animal action is and how to respond to it.

Nonetheless, all I am trying to say is that "Hopefully, someone among us, the Humans, can think outside of the box (inside the box thinking usually involves in putting the animal down) and take the correct course of action the problem".

I totally agree Human can do a lot of Good Things for nature. We just need to try harder!

treitz3

Anybody up for a fresh Cougar burger?

ryanjoachim

hearingimpared wrote: »

There are plenty of people on death row.

That's the problem. They're on death row for decades most of the time. If they're sentenced to death, KILL THEM. Stop wasting our money on people who deserve to die.

Now that I have sufficiently derailed the threat, I give you this thought:

Yogi Bear touched himself...a lot.

shawn474

POIDOG, I don't disagree with what you said above. But, isn't there an arrogance to think that our lives are any more important? On a fundamental level (i realize it's completely simplified), I don't see a difference. What exactly lies ahead? Are you hypothesizing that this lion will attack again? That it will stalk the next hiker and do the same to a human? I don't get it, I guess.

The basic premise of my argument is that I see no problem with what the lion did - it was in his habitat and it was instinct. Does this mean I believe that lion's life is more important than a human's? Absolutely not. However, does this mean I think we should track and shoot it? Hell no. If it happened in a residential area, unprovoked then I'd be the first guy arranging the search party.

Not saying this happened here, but the real beauty is listening to anothers viewpoint and actually processing it without bringing into question education, intelligence, life experiences, morals, etc. Understand that there is such a thing as Agreeing to disagree. That's ok and healthy.

ben62670

Shawn instinct tells the lion to avoid human contact(a man, a woman, and a dog;)). If it attacked without being cornered or provoked there is an issue. Once they attack they are much more likey to attack again.

hearingimpared

shawn474 wrote: »

Carry on - I am going to grill a steak for dinner.:D

Mountain lion steak?:D

treitz3

Dibs on the ribs!

ben62670

I'll be right back. I think I spotted a Chickadee foaming at the mouth. If ones got issues they most likely all have issues. I knew I should have stocked up on another 10 cases of 12ga:mad:

megasat16

Oh! I missed one very important thing to say ~

A Big Kudos to the dog for it's bravery and heroic act to save it's owner's Life!

Dogs are indeed man best friends. But yet, some men had abandoned them coz they think the dogs becoming unnecessary burden or other causes. There are human's best friends being put down in the shelters across U.S for many reasons - population control in the shelters, unfit for adoptions, too old or incurable diseases.

Guys, if you think about getting / adopting a cat or a dog, please go to your local human society first and see there is something you can adopt (even puppies or kittens).

inspiredsports

Face wrote: »

It's no mountain lion, but: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284635,00.html

The photos in this link remind me of Ben defending his chickens from the possum!

shawn474

Just remember to have your pets spayed or neutered (in my best Bob Barker impression).:D

inspiredsports

This thread has gotten silly. It's great to have ideals about protecting predators, but it's also unrealistic.

Everybody saying the cat is in its natural environment and following its instincts needs to remember that since day one, man (following man's instincts) has KILLED ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT MAN FELT WAS A THREAT.

Thank God man's instincts, even in this politically correct world, is still to hire Park Rangers who will put down anything felt to be a threat to man.

Why aren't you bleeding heart liberals ever out there protecting man's instincts ??????

hearingimpared

snow wrote: »

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

That's because none of the trolls swooped in to crap up the "respecful adult debate!"

megasat16

If we can only get to put trolls in the natural Trolls Protected zone far away from CP......




CP will be home away from home.

ben62670

I love you guys even if you are wrong:)

POIDOG

shawn474 wrote: »

POIDOG, you obviously missed my point completely.


No I did not miss your point Again, you argue like a tree hugger. You can't believe that I don't except your dogma. Yet I live near these mountains and for years hiked and camped in them. I understand the local issues and do not follow some obtuse global argument that is not relevant to life here. We protect our lifes and children here from harm. We expect our government to provide the same security and protection provided to the lion.

And, hopefully finally, this is a shared habitat. Men have lived here before Christ walked the earth. People here respect the Mountain Lions right to life.
This is one of the primary reasons Cleveland National Forest was created.

snow

ben62670 wrote: »

Go rub a polar bears nuts.


















J/K:p

You first polar bears are bad asses.



REGARDS SNOW

megasat16

snow wrote: »

You first polar bears are bad asses.



REGARDS SNOW

So, would you hug a Grizzly bear instead?

Just asking!

ben62670

I think I will start off with a Panda;)

Edit: Or maybe Doro

steveinaz

inspiredsports wrote: »

Why aren't you bleeding heart liberals ever out there protecting man's instincts ??????

I'm a bleeding heart conservative, thank you. There's nothing political about this discussion. These things happen alot in Arizona, but usually involve bears getting too friendly with people. They are darted and moved elsewhere, why kill them? Because they're invading your favorite camp spot, a little sanctamonious isn't it? I have had 2 occasions where I had sizeable rattlesnakes in my yard; I could have stomped those heads, but what's the point? I called animal control, they picked them up and let them go in the mountains. I'm a hunter and fisherman, but I also respect wildlife and the outdoors.

Lord Vader

shawn474 wrote: »

The basic premise of my argument is that I see no problem with what the lion did - it was in his habitat and it was instinct. Does this mean I believe that lion's life is more important than a human's? Absolutely not. However, does this mean I think we should track and shoot it? Hell no. If it happened in a residential area, unprovoked then I'd be the first guy arranging the search party.

Perhaps you would find something wrong in what this cat did if it was YOUR life involved? Your premise is founded upon the belief that all life is sacred and has value when the truth is that although God created all life on this planet, he gave MAN dominion over all forms of life, from the single cell to the great whales. Let there be no doubt that I believe we need to protect that which is given to us, and that the first order of business is to protect ourselves. Maybe the next time you venture outside that littlle squirel you have been tossing nuts to decides it wants to nibble on something else and attacks you. I am quite willing to bet you will kill that squirel and all his little buddies, not for **** and giggles, but to protect your family. So be it with the lion.

shawn474

This will be my last comment on the thread (i am sure a lot of you are happy about that ).

Poidog, I wholeheartedly accept that you disagree with my view and am at peace with your view as well. Again we will agree to disagree. I may not live in the mountains, but i have travelled, hiked, camped, etc. in many areas of this country. I have a healthy respect for wildlife and nature; but I also have respect for my fellow man. I don't value an animals life over humans; I just believe that we all have the same right to exist here.

You throw a large blanket over those who don't have the same beliefs as you when you use terms like "obtuse global argument" and state that the issues aren't relative to life there. I am sure that some, even where you live, would argue those generalizations.

I agree that it is a shared habitat - that means there is give and take. This particular story is one small example is a microcosm of a much, much larger issue, as I am pretty sure we could all agree no matter what side of the fence we are on.

Vader, your argument is based on the misrepresentation of the facts that the lion attacked a human. That isn't the case. It attacked a dog. Would I be pissed if it was my dog? Hell yes, but I wouldn't condone hunting it down and killing it. If it attacked me or my family, that's when I agree with everything that you guys believe should be done. Do we know how far he was from the campsite? How far did he wander into the forest? No. The only thing we know is that a mountain lion attacked a dog, while a guy was on a hike after leaving a campground. Fact is it didn't and the speculation that it would have attacked a human is just that - speculation to solidify your argument.

These places (national parks and sanctuaries) exist because there are a lot of people who believe in preserving wildlife and THEIR natural habitat and way of life undisturbed by humans.

And so closes my irrelevant and unpopular .02..............;)

ben62670

Steve. Bears are more of a nuisance in an area like yours. Have there been any issues with bears attacking? If so were there cubs involved? Were they cornered. This is a little different I would assume. BTW you ever make those taco burgers?

snow

megasat16 wrote: »

So, would you hug a Grizzly bear instead?

Just asking!

Nope there basically the same critter and trust me on this im a firm believer in leaving them alone.

ben62670 wrote: »

I think I will start off with a Panda;)

Edit: Or maybe Doro

Good choice the panda that is, Mark wants to knee you in the nuts if I recall correctly




REGARDS SNOW

steveinaz

ben62670 wrote: »

BTW you ever make those taco burgers?

I haven't, but I don't think we have a dinner planned for tonight--I might try it if we have everything I need...