Dog mauled while defending owners against mountain lion

hearingimpared

ryanjoachim wrote: »

"Humans aren't animals!"
Wrong. We are worse than the real animals.

I think you need to take the "we" out of that statement.

doctor r

As we all view both sides of this argument we have to consider that many people consider this to be normal aggressive behavior for the cat. It is not normal! This cat did not grow to be its size not noting the "human and domestic" animals traveling through its territory before. Something has changed in this cat. He (or she) is sadly sick. In this case there will be additional encounters and they will escalate. The only other possibility is that the people and thier dog actually cornered the cat and threatened it. It could have been a mother protecting its cubs. This last scenario is the only one that should allow a reprive for this animal. This is a public health issue that is occuring in one of our public parks.

ryanjoachim

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think you need to take the "we" out of that statement.

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

It's obviously different in some ways with animals, but they are based on instinct. We can't fault them for attacking us or anything/one else. We're in their world when in the forest. It doesn't matter if you're on the "fringe" of the forest or deep within. They have no way of knowing "Oh, I can't go past this tree, cause the humans say so!"

We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail, but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.

Lord Vader

ryanjoachim wrote: »

There's a reason why we have this thing called "Human nature". It's a base instinct. If someone broke into your house, you'd protect yourself. If some stranger walked on your yard with your kids playing there, you'd move towards him or tell him to get off your yard.

It's obviously different in some ways with animals, but they are based on instinct. We can't fault them for attacking us or anything/one else. We're in their world when in the forest. It doesn't matter if you're on the "fringe" of the forest or deep within. They have no way of knowing "Oh, I can't go past this tree, cause the humans say so!"

We'll keep mass-murderers/terrorists/serial killers alive, and pay for them to live and eat in jail, but kill any animal that does the only thing it knows to do.

this is not a logical REASONED response. You must stop comparing Humans to animals. We are what is called a scentient being, meaning WE have a soul and the ability to determine right from wrong. WE have the ability to use this inherent GOD given ability to think and reason for ourselves. Animals do NOT possess this skill. Sure they are cute and can learn a few tricks and all, but this does not in any way imbue them with HUMAN abilities. will a lion stop and ask a human hiker with a broken leg if they would like them to go get help? NO!!! The human on the other would certainly try and help the cat... Stop living in a Tweety and Sylvester world where the stupid bird can talk and the cat can order the latest techonlogical terror from ACME.

Thththhhthhhat's all folks!

steveinaz

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical. Damn, I though I was the gun-toten redneck around here!?

The Lion meat recipe is tantilizing however.

ben62670

steveinaz wrote: »

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical.

I don't think anyone is saying that the outdoors is perfectly safe. What I am saying is the Mountain Lion wasn't trapped. We do have the right to go outdoors. Yes use common sense, but there are bad animals, and one less Mountain Lion is not going to hurt anyone. Normal behavior for a mountain lion is to avoid humans;)

Lord Vader

steveinaz wrote: »

I just think it's rediculous to think that you can somehow reach a point where you're perfectly safe in the outdoors. So, as I said before, what do we do? Comb the forest with pitch forks and shotguns and rid the land of these mean creatures? Get real. Just use some damn common sense and be prepared before you take these expeditions.

And BTW, just what exactly is "normal" behavior for a wild animal---that's comical. Damn, I though I was the gun-toten redneck around here!?

The Lion meat recipe is tantilizing however.

Tantalizing indeed. Nobody has said kill'em all, rather just this ONE. And I prefer my lightsaber to your firearms. Such weapons are no match for the power of the Dark SIDE!:cool:

strider

I like the fact that I can still go somewhere and not be at the top of the food chain. Helps keep me humble. Those places are getting harder and harder to find.

treitz3

Hmmmmm, food chain.......

shawn474

ben, thanks for your input. I am not an animal rights extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I do feel that we all have our place on this earth. You can call it corny or whatever else. However I find it funny that you belittle the point I was trying to make with your sarcasm.

Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human. The fact that you think you are the mountain lion whisperer enough to decipher what that animal should consider a threat is comical. Just their physical presence in their territory in threat enough for it to act to defend itself. Does the human have to point a gun to pose a threat? Does the dog have to growl or bark to pose a threat? We (humans) keep invading their natural habitats more each year. This leads to more competition for more species in smaller areas - that's a fact. Sooner or later, we will realize that and give animals, wildlife, plant species, etc. their due respect. I feel like such a treehugger after having said that.:eek:

The fact is that the mountain lion could have easily killed that dog and the human if it wanted to. If it was attacking because it needed a meal, it would have killed both of them to eat or died trying. Nowhere does it say that the human was touched by the lion; if I read correctly the dog and lion were in a fight. I am just saying that it could have felt threatened that another animal was invading the territory and attacked it to ward it off.

Lord Vader

shawn474 wrote: »

ben, thanks for your input. I am not an animal rights extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I do feel that we all have our place on this earth. You can call it corny or whatever else. However I find it funny that you belittle the point I was trying to make with your sarcasm.

Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human. The fact that you think you are the mountain lion whisperer enough to decipher what that animal should consider a threat is comical. Just their physical presence in their territory in threat enough for it to act to defend itself. Does the human have to point a gun to pose a threat? Does the dog have to growl or bark to pose a threat? We (humans) keep invading their natural habitats more each year. This leads to more competition for more species in smaller areas - that's a fact. Sooner or later, we will realize that and give animals, wildlife, plant species, etc. their due respect. I feel like such a treehugger after having said that.:eek:

The fact is that the mountain lion could have easily killed that dog and the human if it wanted to. If it was attacking because it needed a meal, it would have killed both of them to eat or died trying. Nowhere does it say that the human was touched by the lion; if I read correctly the dog and lion were in a fight. I am just saying that it could have felt threatened that another animal was invading the territory and attacked it to ward it off.

The point is who cares WHY it attacked. If you want to declare the area a lion preserve, then we should not be there. It is however a STATE PARK, and as such it is the responsibility for the STATE to keep the area safe for HUMANS and not the other way around. I don't care what it was FEELING!!! They have NO feelings. If it did it would walk up to Ranger Smith and appologize like the cowardly lion in the cartoons. Stop buying into the BS that says animals are people too... they are not.

ben62670

OK two humans and a dog out in nature. Natural instinct is to stay away. Anytime an animal attacks in a situation like that there is something wrong. It's real real simple. You can go on with the poor kitty thing if you would like, but when a wild animal presents itself like that the odds of it doing it again are much higher. Just a curiosity question how would you feel if they did nothing about it and the lion attacked again this time killing someone. Are you poor kitty people that much smarter than the rangers that have to take college courses to get their positions? Come on now Please. Yes nature is nature. If you want to look at it that we are just animals. We are the top dogs, and we protect our cubs(children) who may be out in the woods with the other animals:rolleyes:

POIDOG

shawn474 wrote: »

Here's my point in brief. Why should that animal have to run? Just because there is a human around? The animal is native to that area; not the human.

Again, to a point, this statment is factually incorrect. People have lived in this area for thousands of years. Don't hack fodder for the kool aid drinkers, if you feel like a tree hugger, it's because you spew their bs. :rolleyes:

ben62670

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal.

seeclear

Don't you think that if Mountain Lions had the capacity to act in concert for the protection of their young and the betterment of their species, they would? They lack that capacity, we don't. End of story.

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal.

Yeah! I don't know what you guys are disagreeing for but it's pretty sure thing that no Ranger wants to hurt or hunt the wild animals (unless he is half psycho) without a good reason.

The sad thing is that it is Human's natural instinct that kicks in and prevent disaster from happening which can be interpreted as Killing the Wild Animals first before it happens again.

It's not fair to the nature and the animal Kingdom but it's who we are and that's what we do! Perhaps, some of us can think outside the box and protect the nature and natural order instead of shoot first, be safe and think later kind of reaction to this.

I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment.

It's really no one's fault but with today's advances of technology and equipments, we can hopefully protect more wildlife as much as we protect our own.

doctor r

I have to agree with you Ben. Many people do not understand that this is not this animal's "normal" behavior. I deal with animals all day every day as it is my occupation. I deal with domestic andimals and do some work with zoo animals. There are behaviors that wild cats have and to attack in this situation as described i.e. unprovoked is not normal or would it be considered normal in an lion preserve. It is a sad day for all of us who work with animals when something like this occurs, but this "behavior" cannot just be relocated.

Lord Vader

megasat16 wrote: »

I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment.

Mother nature does the endangering these days, and throughout the history of the planet, she has destroyed 95% of what has ever existed upon it. We are the first species that has actually tried to PREVENT extinctions. Who knows, maybe my grandchildren will one day run from T-Rex in fear for their lives because we were stupid enough to bring them back. There are currently such experiments going on with bringing back the Wooly Mammoth and a few extict birds. Geneticists are also working on rewinding evolution by turning on and off markers within our own genomes as well as those of animals. Let any other animal say it posesses the ability to create animals from test tubes or protect other species from extinction and I will cut them some slack... wait they can't talk.

ben62670

megasat16 wrote: »

...I bet half of the endangered species or the species already extinct are due to the Human Nature of to kill or to be killed sentiment.

It's really no one's fault but with today's advances of technology and equipments, we can hopefully protect more wildlife as much as we protect our own.

We have come along way in this country from the days of Oh lets go out and shoot everything that we think may harm us, or they are easy food. Regulations have come a long way also. Scientist keep a good eye on the populations of animals we are allowed to hunt/fish.

How do you propose that we protect these animals? We could spend a ton of money trapping and putting radio collars all the animals in the wild? Test them yearly for disease? This is a fairly isolated incident. I think the trained professionals are handling it properly;) There is no mob going out with pitch forks and such to dispatch of every Mountain Lion within 100 miles:rolleyes: It is very probable that the Lion has retreated and is far away.

shadowofnight

Now this is a cougar that would be worth the hunt...you cant get a bigger trophy then one that has won cougar of the year

snow

cfrizz wrote: »

+10 Air, Mark, Steve, Shack etc.

You are in their territory that is the risk you run. It is the arrogance & bloodthirsty mentality of man who has put a good many animals on the endangered speicies lists.

Nature originally had most things in balance, we have upset that balance so much that it isn't funny. We systematically eliminate most natural predators of other animals and as a result have an overabundance of those animals that can now breed & live & breed at will. Sometimes resulting in deaths of us because we run into them on the road.

God bless that dog for saving its owners, but leave the lion alone.

Agreed to a point no doubt man has killed off many species of animals.

ryanjoachim wrote: »

Kudos to the dog for defending itself and it's person. -1 billion to the idiots who want to kill the cat.

Is the cat dangerous? Yes. Will the cat attack someone again? Maybe. Do we know what set off the cat in the first place? No.

Needless to say, the cat could have been startled by something when the man and dog came around. The dog could have chased or antagonized the cat (barking). The cat could have just been having a **** day.

All in all, just because it's a "campground" doesn't give us the right to kill anything that happens to take offense at us destroying it's home. If the cat attacks again and is caught then, go ahead and relocate it. If it seems rabid or diseased, then go ahead and kill it.

Killing it just for being WHAT IT IS...idiotic.

The cat wasnt defending it's territory. No reason to wait to either shoot the cat with a paralyzing dart and then move it to a zoo or kill it one or the other has to be done to ensure the safety of humans, once a cat shows no fear of humans and attacks it wont stop. No one is killing the cat for being what it is, normal behavior for these animals are to avoid humans.

dorokusai wrote: »

If the mountain lion had extra moderators or even super moderators to oversee the moderators it would have come down to a 30 sided die roll at best. Unfortunately the dog didn't have a coat of invisibility and the lion had vorpal fangs +5. Everyone loses and another parrot has been strangled by a drunk Jimmy Buffet fan.

Now your just being silly, you know as well as I do we ned more moderators but of course you dont want to share your esteemed position due to your pride getting in the way :rolleyes:

shadowofnight wrote: »

I just figured people would know a dog was pretty close to a coyote...which is natural prey is all...it would look the same to a hungry cat. I also agree that unless starving or injured, most cats wouldnt have done that...but even a considered normal cat might have thought the dog ( Coyote ) was just too easy of pickings to pass on.

I also thought the people were not attacked ...did they receive injuries ?

The people were not injured that I am aware of thanks to the dog. But as mentioned earlier any cat that shows a lack of fear of humans and attacks is a threat.

ryanjoachim wrote: »

Again, nothing in the news article said anything about the cat attacking the humans. The dog was the only victim. I seriously doubt any dog smaller than a lab could do any sort of "serious" damage to a mountain lion, which leads me to believe that the cat was after the dog solely and not the humans.

Actually the article said the cat attacked, then the dog got between the humans and cat and saved there lives.

POIDOG wrote: »

It's interesting to note all the opinions of people not aware of the area we are discussing.
While the loin has a right to exist, the Cleveland National Forest is huge. That campground is on the fringes of this area. One of the problems in this area is a severe drought that has impacted some animal behavior (including humans). The point here is simple, there are hundreds of documented lions in the area, which are not attacking humans. In fact, many are co-existing with humans, which is one of the tributes to the Cleveland National Forest. This is an example of a lion going astray. It happens alot here and is well documented, maulings of dogs and yes, small children. The good people of this area do not go on wild parties of killing lions at whim. A govermental policy is in place to protect man and animals. So please, spare us your dribble about animal rights, while you verbally trample on human safety. If it was your life or safety, what would you do?

Agreed 100%

Lord Vader wrote: »

Actually no, I live near a river and have plenty of wildlife all around me. I have even lost a litter of kittens to the Eagles that soar over my home all the time. My dog was targeted by coyote and thankfully she was able to defend herself. It has ALWAYS been the case that man and nature don't always get along and always will be that way. I do NOT subscribe to the environmental whacko point of view that every time we encounter a billygoat in its's natural habitat that it is I that need to leave. There is something called environmental stewardship which comes into play here. There are plenty of wild mountain lions out there. Leave them alone and in peace, but this ONE is dangerous to HUMANS, and in my book people come first.

Geez I never though I would be saying this but you are absolutley correct

Doctor R wrote: »

As we all view both sides of this argument we have to consider that many people consider this to be normal aggressive behavior for the cat. It is not normal! This cat did not grow to be its size not noting the "human and domestic" animals traveling through its territory before. Something has changed in this cat. He (or she) is sadly sick. In this case there will be additional encounters and they will escalate. The only other possibility is that the people and thier dog actually cornered the cat and threatened it. It could have been a mother protecting its cubs. This last scenario is the only one that should allow a reprive for this animal. This is a public health issue that is occuring in one of our public parks.

Agreed 100% It is not normal behavior and once they start they dont stop attacking and yes usally it's because the cat is sick that it attacks outside of its normal prey. And yes once they start it only gets worse and they do not stop.

ben62670 wrote: »

Another little thing to add. Rangers become rangers most likely because they love nature, and I am sure they are not to pleased about having to put down the animal.

Exactly I love animals as much as anyone here, I live in an area where there is an abundance of wildlife but unless I am hungry and in actual need of food I dont hunt or fish not saying that others that do trophy hunt or sport fish are bad people that is up to them to choose what they want to do, but my personal choice is live and let live until I get hungry



REGARDS SNOW

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

We have come along way in this country from the days of Oh lets go out and shoot everything that we think may harm us, or they are easy food. Regulations have come a long way also. Scientist keep a good eye on the populations of animals we are allowed to hunt/fish.

How do you propose that we protect these animals? We could spend a ton of money trapping and putting radio collars all the animals in the wild? Test them yearly for disease? This is a fairly isolated incident. I think the trained professionals are handling it properly;) There is no mob going out with pitch forks and such to dispatch of every Mountain Lion within 100 miles:rolleyes: It is very probable that the Lion has retreated and is far away.

Ben, I am mostly in agreement with you or everyone here. I just want to make some sense about shooting the poor thing.

People have different opinion about handling this and I don't think they are all totally wrong at all. It's just that we take care of things before (even with all regulations and restrictions) they do it again. You got to accept the fact that 99% of rangers will do exactly that when it comes with the cause to protect human's life.

As far as thoughts to be concerned, I think thoughts are already made - there are plenty of wildlife protected zones where you can't shoot to kill. If you are a human going to such places, think about your life since you are being equal to the animals living there and you are no longer at the top of the food chain.

Personally, I wouldn't go to wildlife protected zones and got myself killed by a mountain lion or a tiger. I think there are other safer places or I need to prepare to fight or to become food for something out there.

dorokusai

ben62670 wrote: »

It is not normal for a Mountain Lion to attack people. Live stock sometimes, but people? They usually go the other way. If you value a predators life more than a humans please slap and sterilize yourself. The weak argument that you shouldn't be outdoors is real nice for the apartment/city dwellers.
Thanks
Ben

I value predators more than humans.

ben62670

If you fallow the rules in National parks you are pretty damn safe. Millions of people visit these places every year. There are very few attacks like this. Just something to chew on(pun intended).

dorokusai wrote: »

I value predators more than humans.

I would expect that.
You sir are not human.

megasat16

Lord Vader wrote: »

Mother nature does the endangering these days, and throughout the history of the planet, she has destroyed 95% of what has ever existed upon it. We are the first species that has actually tried to PREVENT extinctions. Who knows, maybe my grandchildren will one day run from T-Rex in fear for their lives because we were stupid enough to bring them back. There are currently such experiments going on with bringing back the Wooly Mammoth and a few extict birds. Geneticists are also working on rewinding evolution by turning on and off markers within our own genomes as well as those of animals. Let any other animal say it posesses the ability to create animals from test tubes or protect other species from extinction and I will cut them some slack... wait they can't talk.

Dark Lord of the forces,

I think Mother Nature does endangering in about a few million years while we humans do it a lot quicker and sooner.

As much as I want to consider myself as a man with passion for Science and Engineering, playing or recreating life through Science is playing the hands of God and I am not signed up for this or agreed to it.

When the time comes, I want to die peacefully without reanimated or recreated 1000 years later. That goes for my love ones and all things alive around me too.

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

If you fallow the rules in National parks you are pretty damn safe. Millions of people visit these places every year. There are very few attacks like this. Just something to chew on(pun intended).


I would expect that.
You sir are not human.

FYI, Ben! Wildlife protected Zones are mostly not the National Parks to attract visitors and tourists for funs. The main theme is to protect wildlife and preserve them.

May be I deserve not to be a Human but believe me, I am as much Human as you are.

snow

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

ben62670

megasat16 wrote: »

FYI, Ben! Wildlife protected Zones are mostly not the National Parks to attract visitors and tourists for funs. The main theme is to protect wildlife and preserve them.

May be I deserve not to be a Human but believe me, I am as much as Human as you are.

They are set aside for us to enjoy. Sometimes they are managed by fools who think nature will just balance itself out. Good example is near where I lived. They had a Wildlife protected Zone (Yale Forrest) where they decided to stop hunting. Well the deer population exploded, and then they were weak and sick(diseased). So the Coyotes had some easy meals for a good stretch. Now the coyote population boomed. The food population couldn't support it. Well all these educated animal rights activist were losing their cats and dogs left and right. Long story short people were brought in to harvest the over population of coyotes. Guess what the deer population exploded again. This time they gave out a managed number of permits like they used to before. Please I grew up in the country. I knew game wardens. I still talk to a biologist who hunts and fishes regularly. Lesson is be smart and kill the bad kitty;) Populations need to be managed in many areas. We have learned a lot in the last 30 years:)

ben62670

snow wrote: »

The cool thing here is that for once even though we all have differing views on what should or shouldndt be done with this and future Mountain lions we are having an respectful adult debate, I am proud of each and everyone of you.



Carry On

SNOW

Go rub a polar bears nuts.


















J/K:p

shawn474

POIDOG, you obviously missed my point completely.

In short, there are those of us who think that we own the earth and those of us who think we should respect and preserve it. Both are very broad statements and have numerous subcategories and extremists each way. My point is that we all need to respect and appreciate nature as a whole much, much more than we currently do. If that's spewing treehugging, granola crunching BS in your eyes then so be it.

The beauty is that we can all agree to disagree. You have those who side with your point of view and those that side with mine. It's not an argument at all and I don't intend to take that tone if that's the way anyone took it. Just offering my .02


Carry on - I am going to grill a steak for dinner.:D