Overview Of Premium Cable History
Comments
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Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Hillbilly61 wrote: »This thread raises an interesting question of whether or not greater benefit is gained by A) conditioning the power & using the equipment mfgr's power cord or B)installing a premium power cord directly plugged into the grid? It is assumed that A & B combined will have the greatest benefit.
Everything that a signal passes through has a noise characteristic. Better power cables shield against noise being induced from the environment and provide lower resistance, lower noise conductors for the power signal.
You want to preserve as much of a power conditioner's benefit as possible. A well shielded, low noise power cable does this.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
My thoughts. I work for a power company. Starting from the point of generation, i.e. hydro,steam,wind or nuke. It is a very loosely regulated voltage.And it isn't the fancy power cord!
Bring that to a step down distribution sub-station that may feed a local co-op and continue on to the next point of the grid. Step that down to local transmission. And then run that to local distribution subs then break it down to circuits feeding factories, cicuits and distribution.
From that circuit on the distribution, you may have 4-6 houses on the same tx. I'm not sure about other utils, but here, thats around 7200v. And that tx is trying to bring 120/240 into your house. 120/240 is a reference. At the meter you might read 128v to ground per phase, 247v phase to phase. Typical around here.
After that meter it, it becomes a point of economics. Electrical contractor is asking, "How cheap can I wire this house?" I ask "How many of you know how your house is wired?"
Most general use circuits are wired with 14-2 romex. General use meaning a couple of rooms and some lighting are wired to the same breaker only to appease the inspector who only passes a house by "bare code minimum". Economics strikes again.
I believe in power conditioners at this point. Simply because they are a PROOF POSITIVE voltage regulator.
MY point is, y'all can talk big time power cords to a piece of gear and tout its benefits of SQ. But why would your connect a 4" water hose to to a 1/2 inch spiggot and expect it to produce more pressure. -
The goal of a well designed power cable is not to produce more pressure (voltage). The goal is to preserve power signal integrity by the reduction of noise. Its purpose is analogous to a water filter, rather than a water pump.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Fair enough.;) But can two feet of 6Ga. copper conductor be a substantial filter?
make 'em think DK.. -
But can two feet of 6Ga. copper conductor be a substantial filter?
No. There is far more to a power cable than the conductors. Things which contribute to noise filtration are:
1. The purity of the conductor material.
2. The type, quality, and quantity of conductor cladding.
3. The type, quality, and quantity of the cable jacketing material. For example, ferrite impregnated jackets have significant high frequency noise reduction properties.
4. The winding geometry of the conductors. I'm sure you are familiar with the noise cancellation properties of a simple two conductor twisted pair configuration. There are other noise cancellation winding geometries that are used in multi-conductor power cables.
5. The quality of the terminations. It does not make sense to go to great lengths to reduce noise in the cable body and then ignore the connectors. Shielding and noise reduction techniques must be used at the cable ends also.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Very nice write up, as always, DK.:)The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Everything that a signal passes through has a noise characteristic. Better power cables shield against noise being induced from the environment and provide lower resistance, lower noise conductors for the power signal.
You want to preserve as much of a power conditioner's benefit as possible. A well shielded, low noise power cable does this.
For sure, everything in the path affects the signal. My question is more so system's engineering related. If I had to choose A verses B to stay within budget, which choice would lead to a better outcome? I might be willing to spend $400 on either, but not $800 on both sort of thing.
Hmmm, need to research..... -
You generally get more noise reduction with a conditioner simply because there are a wider variety of noise reduction technologies applicable to conditioners than to cables. Designers of conditioners also don't have to worry about maintaining cable flexibility and interfacing a conditioner's size and weight with an audio component.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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DarqueKnight wrote: »No. There is far more to a power cable than the conductors. Things which contribute to noise filtration are:
1. The purity of the conductor material.
2. The type, quality, and quantity of conductor cladding.
3. The type, quality, and quantity of the cable jacketing material. For example, ferrite impregnated jackets have significant high frequency noise reduction properties.
4. The winding geometry of the conductors. I'm sure you are familiar with the noise cancellation properties of a simple two conductor twisted pair configuration. There are other noise cancellation winding geometries that are used in multi-conductor power cables.
5. The quality of the terminations. It does not make sense to go to great lengths to reduce noise in the cable body and then ignore the connectors. Shielding and noise reduction techniques must be used at the cable ends also.
But what about the RF that might be introduced just from the house wiring and utility sources I described? How will those factor in with these $500-600 power cables? Just to come from a wall socket to the gear. Seems like a lot to expect from a short piece of cable. IMOA -
opinion does not start with an A.:o
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But what about the RF that might be introduced just from the house wiring and utility sources I described?
RF is not induced from house wiring and utility lines. RF comes for sources which emit electric fields.;)
Electric fields induce noise currents in unshielded cables that are located within the electric field. A properly shielded cable will have greatly reduced induced noise current once the influence of the field is removed or greatly diminished. The principle is the same as your cell phone reception greatly diminishing once you step inside a building.
Manufacturing a well shielded, low noise cable is not cheap.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Manufacturing a well shielded, low noise cable is not cheap.Only for those audiophiles willing to pay ridiculous prices for it. Industrial control shielded cables shield against far worse electromagnetic transients than would ever be experienced in a home and they are not outrageously expensive.
Pardon the lack of clarity in my previous statement. I assumed that everyone reading this would automatically assume that I was referring to power cables intended for providing a clean power signal to audio and audiophile grade components which process complex music signals and not industrial control cables which carry simple machine control signals.
You bring up an interesting point about EM transients. I have some familiarity with the EM noise frequencies and power levels that a music signal is likely to encounter in a home environment. I am interested in learning about the following:
1. Would you please enlighten us as to the types of EM noise frequencies and power levels that occur in industrial environments and contrast those with the EM environment in a typical home?
2. I am not an expert on cable shielding, but my understanding is that shielding characteristics for a particular cable will vary depending on the type(s) of signals it is to carry and the types of noise it will likely encounter.
For a home audio component, the goal is to shield against noise and filter noise. With that in mind, do you know that industrial power cables have appropriate shielding and noise filtration properties appropriate for audio applications?
3. Some of our forum members have experimented with building power cables. Can you suggest some industrial cables that might be suitable for audio power cable applications? Please quantitatively justify your recommendations.From an engineering perspective, there is also filtering at the power supply itself which makes sense from a technical and cost effectiveness point of view.
This not only makes sense but it is absolutely required.I use and in fact specify shielded cables for the industry I work in.
Excellent. You appear to be uniquely qualified to address questions 1-3 above. Thank you in advance for your contributions.Some audiophiles just carry some of this to a ridiculous extreme.
I agree. I'm glad that you realize that only some audiophiles go to ridiculous extremes. There is a lunatic fringe in every hobby. Thank you for not stereotyping the entirety of our body with the extreme fetishes and practices of a few.Their often entertaining and well written justifications are invariably based on subjective opinion and perception and are seldom based on objective quantitative analysis. Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. I thought it was understood that listening to music and the enjoyment derived from that music is basically a subjective and perceptive process. Most people like certain sounds, colors, smells and tastes. Quantitative analysis provides a certain amount of insight, but most people don't require scientifically rigorous quantitative analysis to know whether a particular piece of audio gear enhances or diminishes their music enjoyment experience.
I have read some painstakingly researched and thorough analysis of power cable performance which demonstrate the beneficial effects of such cables, particularly with regard to more noise being removed from the power signal by better constructed, better shielded (and more expensive) power cables. Therefore, the quantitative analysis is definitely available for those who seek such knowledge.
If it could be demonstrated that a $10 power cable provides the same or better shielding and noise reduction benefits in audio applications as a cable costing hundreds of $$$, that would be a tremendous benefit to the audio community. I wonder why no one in the DIY community has done this? Since they are a technically competent and cost conscious group of people, it seems that there would be a plethora of such studies poo-pooing expensive power cables. Oddly enough, DIYer's were the first to enthusiastically embrace PS Audio's $400 Lab Power cable. Your thoughts?Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.
Again, I'm not sure why you feel the need to point this out. The audio hobby is all about reproducing a musical event. I thought it was common knowledge that making music is more of an art than a science.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Um, instead of changing the subject, could you please answer questions # 1-3, post #53. Thank you for your contributions.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Instead of comparing apples to oranges, how about trying a few different power cords. Companies like Signal Cable and I even believe MIT's discount store have an excellent return policy within 30 days. Then you could speak form experience instead of just speculating."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Well there is Easter to contend with but here is a start.
Happy Easter to you and yours. There's no rush. Get back to the discussion whenever you can.First, let's stay on topic. The discussion concerned the requirements of 60 Hz power cable and not 10 - 20kHz audio cable. Nice trick, but it is a favorite debating method to change the subject.
I specifically mentioned power cables 3 times and did not mention audio cables even once.
Please point out exactly where in post #53 I talked about the requirements of audio signal cables. I did speak of audio components and I spoke of power cables for audio components. If you reread, carefully, my response, you will find that I was talking about power cables and the environment that audio power cables encounter in a home environment.
Now, would you please stay on topic and address questions 1-3 from post #53? Those questions specifically pertain to the suitability of industrial power cables with home audio equipment. Thank you.Check out the shielded power cable made by Belden such as Belden 19364.
See also.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/
or
http://www.ramelectronics.net/power/power-cables/shielded-power-cable-drtpc/prodDRTPC.html#
Most people here know that you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good power cable, just like you don't have to spend a fortune to get a good dependable car. I thought it was common knowledge that the more performance you want, from anything, the more you will have to pay.
I use Signal Cable MagicPower cords, most of which are well under $100, in my three home audio/video systems and in my audio system at work. My two channel system has equipment of much higher resolving power and is more affected by noise in the power signal. Accordingly, with the exception of my turntable motor power supply, I use higher performance, higher cost PS Audio power cords. I also use a combination of passive power line filtering and AC regeneration in the two channel system.Control cable requirements not only includes simple on-off control but also include analog measurements of voltages via PT's & CVT's (63 to 120 V nominal in North America) and currents via CT's (1A or 5A nominal to 100 amps under fault conditions). We also use shielded cables in low level (0 - 1mA, or 1 - 20mA) transducer applications. In these applications we require high frequency response to 30th harmonic which is 1800 Hz for power quality analysis. When we look at back to back capacitor bank switching, we see transients on the order of several thousand Hz.
You're not helping much. Getting back to questions 1-3 in post #53, high performance audio equipment requires a clean, low noise power signal for optimum performance. Is the same true of industrial equipment? Do industrial power cords have the same requirements for maintaining power signal purity and integrity as that high performance audio power cords?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I use and in fact specify shielded cables for the industry I work in. Some audiophiles just carry some of this to a ridiculous extreme. Their often entertaining and well written justifications are invariably based on subjective opinion and perception and are seldom based on objective quantitative analysis. Simply stated, it is more of an art than a science.
So, you use shielded power cables in your industry, but not in your home audio system. Do I have that right?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
^^^Along those lines...it would be very helpful to know the costs of the shielded power cables used in your industry in addition to their performance parameters.
I am trying to determine if your industrial power cables would offer comparable power signal integrity and noise rejection for lower cost than is available with high performance audio power cables.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I don't think whether or not if shielded cable used in a professional environment has any bearing upon whether or not it is advantageous in home audio, unless the applications and environments are very similar. The same applies to the ambient RF environment and, probably, more so. A business RF environment can be very noisy, as even things like air conditioner motors, etc are big beefy things that spew out all sorts of localized radio and magnetic waves. Plus, many businesses use 3 phase power, making noise potential all the greater.
I used to posses a magnetometer that was sensitive to 1 microhenry. To illustrate, a 15" wide steel beam would typically create a 50 mH flux within 6" of it. (No power added. Just the iron interacting with the earth's magnetic field). It was amazing how ambient magnetic fields varied within office buildings, sometimes pegging the meter at 1000 mH. I don't know if my house was representative or not, but it was a helova lot quieter, with around 200 mH max.
Probably, the disconnect for me is how a 3 ft. uber wire somehow filters or shields the environment feeding an amplifier circuit. If anything, it seems, the ultra pure wire would help pass along electrical noise already present in the house current. The shielding could help with the mess of wires behind my amp and the wall. It could prevent the AC inductance from interacting with the speaker and component wires. That makes sense.
Another thought I had on this topic is whether SS amps are more subseptable to noise than tubes. By their analog nature, tubes should wash out brief transients associated with noise that SS would be more apt to detect & amplify. I'm just guessing though.
By the way, was there a legitimate reason for one or more folks to post those tags on this thread? This is the first adult toned thread on a controversial topic I've seen in this forum for some time. Don't ruin it please. -
Thanks for the write up DK, it should be made a sticky!"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, February 17th, 1775.
"The day that I have to give up my constitutional rights AND let some dude rub my junk...well, let's just say that it's gonna be a real bad day for the dude trying to rub my junk!!"
messiah, November 23rd, 2010 -
Hillbilly61 wrote: »Probably, the disconnect for me is how a 3 ft. uber wire somehow filters or shields the environment feeding an amplifier circuit. If anything, it seems, the ultra pure wire would help pass along electrical noise already present in the house current. The shielding could help with the mess of wires behind my amp and the wall. It could prevent the AC inductance from interacting with the speaker and component wires. That makes sense.
The filtering is not in the wire conductors themselves. Noise cancellation and noise filtration is accomplished by the winding geometry of the conductors and by the types of noise filtering materials (eg. ferrite impregnation) used in the conductor cladding and cable jacket.
High purity, higher conductivity wire helps by not restricting current and by not adding significantly more noise to the power signal.Hillbilly61 wrote: »Another thought I had on this topic is whether SS amps are more susceptible to noise than tubes. By their analog nature, tubes should wash out brief transients associated with noise that SS would be more apt to detect & amplify. I'm just guessing though.
I don't know. I don't have any experience with tube amps other than listening to them in stores, at shows and in other people's homes. We have forum members who own or have owned both SS and tube amps and who use high performance power cables. Perhaps one or more of them will offer some insight based on their personal experience.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Thanks for the write up DK, it should be made a sticky!
It might turn into a sticky mess.:pProud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I had this very question when I started to hear about different "sounding" power cables. It seemed ridiculous.The biggest problem with premium power cables is that nay sayers will point to the cheap Romex in the wall and challenge you to a valid explanation how the premium power cable can change the electricity that was generated miles away.
Then I broke down and tried a few of the less expensive ones....and lo and behold, I did hear a difference. As much as I hate it, I now have big, thick power cables on my system.Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
Since most power cable skeptics are reluctant to acquire some power cables for an in-home, money back guarantee evaluation, I offer this proposition that costs nothing more that time:
1. Go to any premium power cable manufacturer's website and copy the URL's of some of the technical descriptions of some of their power cables. PS Audio, Audioquest, and Shunyata are three good ones that come to mind.
2. Locate a knowledgeable technical support person at one of the companies that make power cables in the sub $50 price range.
3. Point the tech support person to the premium power cable description and pricing URL's and ask them if the performance claims made by these companies are ridiculous. If the claims are ridiculous, ask them to technically justify their opinion.
4. If the claims are valid, ask them if they have a product with comparable performance. If they do, please note the cost of their comparable power cables.
5. If the tech support person's company does not offer a comparable product, ask them if the prices charged by Audioquest, PS Audio, Shunyata, etc. are way out of line for the performance claimed.
6. Share your results with the forum or at some other publicly accessible venue.
I'm sure the informed and technically justified insights from expert power cable manufacturing sources will prove more valuable than all the anecdotal evidence bandied about on Internet forums. It certainly will prove infinitely more valuable than the speculation and conjecture from people with no personal experience with high performance power cables.
Thank you for your consideration.
Who's going to volunteer for this?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Then I broke down and tried a few of the less expensive ones....and lo and behold, I did hear a difference. As much as I hate it, I now have big, thick power cables on my system.
How do you know that your mind isn't playing tricks on you?
How do you know that you didn't fall victim to the dreaded "placebo effect"?
I know how I know, but I want to know how you know.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »2. Locate a knowledgeable technical support person at one of the companies that make power cables in the sub $50 price range.
That definitely falls into the "easier said than done" category.
I have 7 boxes (Wadia iPod dock, Dac1, tuner, SACD, pre, amp, amp) plugged into a power conditioner, which then plugs into the wall. One day I will have the house rewired, but now the wiring is original from 1958. At least it is burnt in by now.
However, I did have the panel upgraded to 200W within the last year, and I know that improved the internal power since the lights no longer flicker when the washing machine runs. Plus, the power company recently put a new, and bigger, transformer on the pole in my backyard, and I get my power directly from it. So, I hope, that helps.
Anyway, my point is rather than upgrade the power cable on all 7 components I hope just upgrading the one cable for the power conditioner will have a postive, noticible effect on everything.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
First of all, I hate the thought of spending money on power cables. They certainly aren't sexy enough for me to want to show them off. So I'm not fooling myself, or engaging in wishful thinking. As a thrifty Scandinavian, I would love nothing better than to sell them if I didn't think they did something beneficial.DarqueKnight wrote: »How do you know that your mind isn't playing tricks on you?
How do you know that you didn't fall victim to the dreaded "placebo effect"?
I know how I know, but I want to know how you know.
Secondly, I evaluated the power cables in blind testing with a friend of mine. We achieved consistent and repeatable results. We are careful not to let one of us lead the other into conclusions; the person who doesn't know which cable is in play always state his opinion before the other person comments. And we are careful to change only one variable at a time in these evaluations, whenever possible.Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
"Abuse is the last refuge of the outwitted."
- ConfuciousProud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Too funny.....Nothing you own is top of the line high quality audio equipment. Perhaps you should file a complaint with whomever it was that told you it was.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Well I had a nice Easter, I had been educated by by some magnificent prose on this forum. I was delighted with my enhanced knowledge, but joy soon turned into sorrow.
My Easter was ruined when I looked at my beautiful Polk Audio LSi25 speakers to see a plain old power cord on it. It was crushing to me. Then I looked further and saw a plain old power cord permanently attached to my Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver and Pioneer Elite DC-48AV DVD player. Horror of horrors - top of the line high quality audio equipment with those woefully substandard permanently attached power cords!
I guess those engineers at Polk Audio and Pioneer need to be reprimanded for their carelessness. They obviously don't appreciate the good engineering do they! Pioneer even had the audacity to put Elite on their product name. How could they do this yet attach that excuse for a power cord?!
Perhaps I should file a complaint with their customer service departments. I can cite all the esteemed Polk Audio Forum members from this thread that support the expensive power cord requirement theory.
Now I understand that everything has a cost to it and these manufacturers tried to save their customers money on the power cord and its attachment. Perhaps they can do a recall of all their equpment with this deficiency so that they can retrofit a proper power cord receptacle so that I may attach a proper one.
Thank you for all your support in advance.
"It's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
W. C. Fields
Didn't Pioneer also include some "IC's" with those components, along with the power cords? Something like in the picture below maybe? I'm sure those are what you are using because they certainly wouldn't include anything that would degrade the sound of their top-of-the line equipment.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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