Official ICE CLUB rules..

zingo

My ICEpower experience:

I decide to build an amp for fun, so I contacted B&O to see if I could obtain a pair of their ICEpower modules since they are not commercially available for purchase. The rep told my that all they had available at the time was the 250ASP module as they were waiting for more stock, so he sent them over to me to play around with. The 250ASP is a complete module that only needs 110v in and balanced signal in to output 250wpc @ 4ohm though the speaker out. It is a very smart and complex design that is fused on the board, and even accepts 220v with the correct jumper set.

I'm a guy who likes the simplicity of an integrated amp, so I decided to build the modules into an integrated amp. The volume attenuator took me a little while to decide on, but I ended up going with an Endler Audio balanced, stepped, shunt style attenuator. Being that the 205ASP boards accept a truly balanced signal, and I knew that I'd be running only XLR with the amp, I opted for the balanced attenuator as it is the best aural option even though it can't accept an unbalanced signal. Knowing that I also wanted something different than just the class-D modules in the chassis, I wired in a dual 6922 tube buffer to provide better impedance matching, as well as that tubey goodness that I know and love.

I assembled all the parts together in a custom made, MDF chassis painted semi-gloss black with a high gloss, Ferrari red front panel. The wiring was all DH Labs with Darren's hook-up wire for all the power connections and BL-1 cable for all the signal connections. :cool: I was unsure what sound this combination of parts would hold, but was equally excited at the opportunity to try something that is not available in the commercial market; a tube buffered, ICEpower integrated amp at 250wpc.

As my father-in-law had worked on their project together, and we happen to finish all the trouble shooting at his house, we hooked it up to his LSi15s after bench testing and burn-in and flipped the power switch. The sound was so much better than either of us had expected. It was crystal clear, precise, detailed, and the bass reproduction was better than any amp he had tried on his speakers; we were both blown away. Having previously had run a class A/B amp with his Polks, the new class D power and love of low impedance loads helped his speakers to thrive and reach their full potential. Playback now had less noise, more definition, and better dynamics.

After two days of listening and adjusting the internal layout of the amp, we decided to bypass the tube buffers and listen to the modules on their own. I was a little hesitant as I do love my tubes, but he is not a bottle head, so I figured it would give us a good balanced prospective of the sound to come. Rewiring the amp and flipping the power switch once again gave us some interesting new incites. First of all, there was even less noise now from the amp; almost nothing coming out of the tweeters even when the amp was all the way tuned up. Obviously I knew this was a possibility as we were inserting one more piece of electronic equipment in the signal path, which can introduce noise or other unwanted side effects. The other interesting aural effect of removing the tube buffers was an immediate and intense increase on clarity and directness of the music. The tubes seemed to have taken the edge off the music and make is sound a little more warm, but this was actually something that he preferred the sound of. Being that the LSi15 is a Polk speaker, and thus already a little warm and soft, the increased immediacy and sharpness was a good complement to the speakers; even for a tube guy.

When I brought the amp home to my house, I hooked it up to my Klipsch Forte speakers and hit play. The first thing I noticed is that the amp was too loud and not precise enough for low level listening because of the 22 step attenuator. The first click on the volume knob placed the amp at a moderate volume, and without too many more notches up and I was at my listening max. The second aspect was the tonal features of the amp. The sharp detail and immediacy that helped make the amp brilliant with the LSis created a less than pleasing sound with my horns. The bass was still the best I had heard with my speakers, and the tube buffer still took the edge off and provide a little more life to the sound, but it still did not create the ideal sonic signature with the horns. What amazes me about the sound of the horns with the ICEpower modules is that I could hear every detail and the sound stage was great, but the overall sound just wasn't as musical as I liked or needed.

Interestingly enough, this has not been my experience with all class-D amplifiers. My current second string amp, the KingRex T20U+PSU Tripath powered integrated amp, has a completely different sonic signature and pairs with my Klipsch horns well; and a lot more musically. I currently have a demo of the Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 LFP-V Edition Stereo Integrated Amplifier on its way to my doorstep. It's a Tripath based, battery powered, 6922 tube inputed amplifier that claims to be the best Tripath has to offer.

Does this mean I have written of ICEpower for my horns? Not necessarily, but I would not be purchasing one without being able to hear it in my system. There are some very interesting designs out there, but if the Red Wine Audio works out, I doubt I'd even be considering them. As for the amp I built, it now lives at my father-in-laws house with his LSi15s as it was such a great match, and he has opted for it to be tubeless. Class-D technology is very neat stuff with its high power, low distortion, low noise, and high efficiency, but as with any audio equipment, also needs to be paired well to perform at its best. I completely recommend ICEpower based amplifiers to pair with LSi and possibly other Polk speakers that like plenty of juice. The combination of Polk's warm and life-like sound with the detail and directness of ICEpower is a well balanced and enjoyable experience.

FTGV

Nice writeup Jake.When you were building it I suspected the addition of the tube buffer would result in the noted increased noise floor, even order distortion (we'll call it warmth.),and reduced resolution (less apparent detail).
And yes I would expect the high-ish gain to be a less than an ideal match for the Klipsch's not to mention over kill power wise.You need one of the low gain comparitivly low powered First Watt/ZEN designs for those.


Btw.I can't remember if I asked you previously but where did you obtain the bare modules,as they are usually hard to source unless you are an OEM?

zingo

Thanks for the feedback Fred. Those amp are overkill power wise for my 98db sensitive speakers, but at least that power could have been handled better for the horns with more than 22 steps on the attenuator. A design like the PS Audio Gaincell where the actual output power is varied instead of the input signal attenuated might provide a better match. I'm glad though that they are working so well for my father-in-law and his LSi15s.

I used to have a Forte 1A class A 40wpc amplifier that was great, but I've been a little bothered lately by the higher even order distortion (we'll call it warmth ) produced by low powered class-A amps. The Pass Labs INT-30A produces 30wpc and 1% THD verses the Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 LFP-V produces 30wpc and 0.04% THD. Obviously numbers aren't the whole picture, and don't even always equate into something aural. However, I have been a detail and low distortion fiend since I got these horn speakers as it's so much easier to hear the details, and I'm still on the hunt for the perfect balance of low distortion and musicality. I'm also very interested to hear the RWA amp which should be here next week because of it's battery powered design. Electronics noise coming though speakers REALLY bothers me, and a low signal to noise ratio and/or noisy power supply is even worse with sensitive speakers. Vinnie (the owner of RWA) assures me that amps don't get any quieter and blacker than the pure DC of battery power. If this RWA integrated amp is not the sound I'm looking for, Jeff (Bikerboy) lives about an hour from me and has an Aleph 30 which I can always demo as I've heard Nelson Pass amplifiers, just not Pass Labs amplifiers.

I made a connection at Bang & Olufsen with an account manager and they were able to send me a pair of modules for testing. I wish they were commercially available as I know a number of people who would buy them for DIY work, and they are neat little modules as you know; that will be my suggestion back to B&O anyway. I'm not an OEM, just special. :biggrin:

FTGV

zingo wrote: »

Electronics noise coming though speakers REALLY bothers me, and a low signal to noise ratio and/or noisy power supply is even worse with sensitive speakers.

Yeah with a sensitivity of 98db the noise floor would have nowhere to hide.I have not heard any of the Tripath based units let alone battery powered so will be interested in your impressions of the RW unit.

I'm not an OEM, just special. :biggrin:

Ahhh review samples. I snagged a single 250ASP through clandestine means unfortunately it's now in my junk bin after it having a major failure.The proprietary nature of the design makes it hard to find and service documentation.:frown:

Sherardp

I found the 1000ASP modules on Ebay. I'm going to open my D-Sonic up and see what's in there.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=1000ASP&_sacat=See-All-Categories

FTGV

Sherardp wrote: »

I found the 1000ASP modules on Ebay. I'm going to open my D-Sonic up and see what's in there.

Depending on power rating likely one of the ASP series ie.250,500,1000.

Sherardp

FTGV wrote: »

Depending on power rating likely one of the ASP series ie.250,500,1000.

Yeah I should have the 1000ASP modules in mine. 525wpc @8ohms, 1000wpc @ 4ohms.

VXR8

mantis wrote: »

No need to be nervous , the ICE amps in the 25 can drive most speakers extremely well. I had a Rotel RMB1095 which is a monster of a power amp and I compared it directly to the ICE amps and I was completely shocked how well the ICE amps did. I had my Dynaudio Audience 82's at that time and they are a very demanding speaker at 87db @4ohms. When I first got my SC-07 the goal was just to use it as a preamp. The preamp section is excellent and at that time I could not find a better replacement for my rsp1068 preamp. I got up the balls one day to try the ICE amps on the Dynes and I could not believe how well they sounded and performanced. Honesly there was little difference between the 2 amps. I actually thought the ICE amps performed note for note.
Today I run Def Tech Mythos ST's and they sing on the ICE amps. They are easy to drive at 93DB@8 ohms so no challenge for the ICE amps. I run them large and also use LFE in on both speakers.

Thanks Dan - that was my next question - I am running a full LSi series and am looking at the SCLX 73 (renamed differently in Oz, but is equivalent to your SC-35) - will I still require external amplification? I believe the Pioneer will be more musical, with the Air Studios certification - and yes I also listen to multi channel and 2 channel music in Pure Direct as well, so that is a good tip as well. Thanks in advance.

SRTer

I must be part of the club.

Pio Elite SC-35

Excerpt from Polk Audio RTi A series HT powered by Pioneer Elite ICE thread.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117648

Pioneer Elite SC-35, I don't know what to say other than I will most likely never buy any other receiver brand. I spent hours at local store listing to receivers and playing with features. True, it is not was warm as some of the other receivers I listened to like the Onkyo TX-NR808. Nevertheless, the SC-35 has the balls to play these speakers well without heating up as much as the Onkyo would. The iPhone and iPod functionality is truly amazing. There is a lot of flexibility in the audio program to get the sound you want if you don't mind tinkering after mic calibration. I'm most pleased with the quality found in the Polk RTi A series speaker line and Pioneer Elite models. I'm in Heaven.

Also, I would like to say that if you use the MCACC auto cal, don't think your done adjusting the system if you have speakers like the RTi A9 or A7. They seem to be a little bright and lacking in the bass department until I adjusted the EQ to my liking.

Lastly, turn off the "Sound Retriever" because it adds a nasty EQ to your iPod or iPhone audio if you use Apple Lossless.

Cmiller

SRTer wrote: »

I must be part of the club.

Pio Elite SC-35

Excerpt from Polk Audio RTi A series HT powered by Pioneer Elite ICE thread.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117648


Also, I would like to say that if you use the MCACC auto cal, don't think your done adjusting the system if you have speakers like the RTi A9 or A7. They seem to be a little bright and lacking in the bass department until I adjusted the EQ to my liking.

How do you have your EQ set-up?

SRTer

Cmiller wrote: »

How do you have your EQ set-up?

I will post a pic when I get home.

SRTer

Cmiller wrote: »

How do you have your EQ set-up?

I chose to tune my system using the MCACC auto calibration. Secondly, I used various types of music in Apple Lossless format to determine if the sound was to my liking. Jazz, Alternative, Rock, and R&B was used.
I found that the RTi A9's and A7's were a bit too bright in my room. If the room had proper treatments, the brightness may not have been as exaggerated.

I chose to remove some treble in the 8k and 16k sections of the equalizer for all speakers. This was necessary while playing Scar Tissue from Red Hot Chili Peppers at high volume (-9 dB) and other hard driving electric guitar tracks to reduce fatigue.

With ten 7 inchs low frequency woofers in my second floor HT system, I was not getting enough bass response while the powered sub was off. Particularly in playing 2 channel music with the Pure Direct setting, the RTi A9's sounded anemic in the low frequency. Therefore, I added bass in the 63Hz and 125Hz sections of the equalizer which gave me the gratifying bass that I knew the RTi A9 and A7 speakers where capable of.

Lastly, I had to remove some of the bass from the center channel because the MCACC made the Polk CSi A6 play too much bass by raising it 63Hz and 125Hz sections. This has also happen on my other HT set up on the first floor system using a Pioneer Elite VSX-23 and CSi A4 for a center channel. I think this is because all my speakers are set to LARGE, therefore not cutting off the lower frequencies to all speakers in my 5.1 configuration. The MCACC thinks the center should have a bass response like the tower speakers for the mains and rears. Without fail, every time I performed the MCACC calibration the bass would be about +6 in the 63Hz region.

I think other ICE users without external amps and similar speakers will find the center channel bass level elevated too much because it happened to me with two different Pioneer Elite receivers. Take a look and let me know.

All in all, the system now shakes the house and sounds sweet a high volume levels in "extended stereo" mode which plays all speakers during music. EXTENDED STEREO is under the Advance Surround Sound Mode.

The Pio SC-35 excels in playing all the speakers in my system without overheating or distorting for hours at high levels. I love the clean power. The RTi A9's and A7's dig deep and soar high now.

Obviously, movies have plenty of dynamic slam now. Also, the bass from the towers is faster, tight, and smoother allowing the DSW PRO 500 sub to do minimal work and sound omni-present.

Sorry for long post..:frown:

Pics of EQ is below

Cmiller

Thanks bro,im going to try those EQ setting out..So...you run your speakers as large?

Sherardp

Cmiller wrote: »

Thanks bro,im going to try those EQ setting out..So...you run your speakers as large?

Why not run MCACC and see what it does with your settings? Then use compare your settings and adjust accordingly afterward.

Cmiller

Ive ran it a 1000 times,i just dont get the Bass i want out of my Rti10's i wanted..So im just trying something different..

Sherardp

Cmiller wrote: »

Ive ran it a 1000 times,i just dont get the Bass i want out of my Rti10's i wanted..So im just trying something different..

What sub are you using?

SRTer

Cmiller wrote: »

Thanks bro,im going to try those EQ setting out..So...you run your speakers as large?

I most certainly do because I could have bought RTi A3's if I was going to run them SMALL. Hell, I ran the RTi8's (just like RTi A5's) on the LARGE setting.

Hell, I could have keep the Pioneer Elite VSX-23. Don't need all that power in my opinion to sound great because I was already happy with that AVR and four RTi8's.

I wanted to put the ICE amps to test thru the fire! RTi A9' and RTi A7 is a test for sure when set to LARGE and kicking the bass level up a bit.

I wanted to see what she would do. I could have not bought any of this if I was going to neuter all these 7 inch woofers. There are 10 of them, time for them to pull their weight.

SRTer

Sherardp wrote: »

Why not run MCACC and see what it does with your settings? Then use compare your settings and adjust accordingly afterward.

This is what I did. Ran the MCACC, then added these settings.

This way, I could get the room correction and everything else the MCACC does so well.

Run MCACC first.

Save on Preset 1

Run MCACC again..

Save on Preset 2, then add your adjustments.

Then compare the two presets to see if you are getting what you want.

zingo

In my experience, low bass should not be an issue with ICEpower amplifiers and full range speakers. If you are having bass issues, it is most likely in the programming/EQ in your receiver.

mantis

Cmiller wrote: »

Ive ran it a 1000 times,i just dont get the Bass i want out of my Rti10's i wanted..So im just trying something different..

I'm thinking your room placement of your sub , your sitting in a null area. Try moving around your sub a bit , I bet you get the bass your looking for unless your use to have the sub was out of tune. Most people make this mistake and over juice the sub. Your RTi10's should blend in perfectly with the sub , not try and make all their own bass.

carwashguy

Got a pair of W4S SX-1000s today. Am I in?

jenkzy56

Here is my dilema.
I fear my Onkyo 708 is going to take a dump soon, lots of HDMI issues that I read about on various forums (fora?) are starting to manifest with my 708.
I also have an Oppo bdp-93 which I suspected was the culprit, but after some troubleshooting appears to be innocent.

I am still going to get my self some new HDMI cables before I send anything off for repair (AARRGGGHHHH) as all of my ones are from different sources.
They are all high speed just not the same brands.

I have to admit that i am seriously considering getting a Pio elite SC-35.
Folks seem to rave about them and since I am going to upgrade my speakers soon anyway ( I have Monitor 60, 30, and CS2 with an Outlaw Sub)
I thought, why not get a better receiver as well.

So, what do you SC-35/37 owners think?
Are they working out for you in your respective rooms?
I am probably going to stay with Polk and go up to the RTi A line.
I would love to hear some opinions about these receivers from the mouths of people that have them.

cheers

jenkzy

Upstatemax

My car has an ICE amp...

Am I in?

SRTer

jenkzy56 wrote: »

I am still going to get my self some new HDMI cables before I send anything off for repair (AARRGGGHHHH) as all of my ones are from different sources.
They are all high speed just not the same brands.

I have to admit that i am seriously considering getting a Pio elite SC-35.
Folks seem to rave about them and since I am going to upgrade my speakers soon anyway ( I have Monitor 60, 30, and CS2 with an Outlaw Sub)
I thought, why not get a better receiver as well.

So, what do you SC-35/37 owners think?
Are they working out for you in your respective rooms?
I am probably going to stay with Polk and go up to the RTi A line.
I would love to hear some opinions about these receivers from the mouths of people that have them.

I purchased the Pioneer Elite SC-35 after using a Pio Elite VXS-23
.
I decided to get a full line of Polk Audio RTi A series and wanted a receiver capable of powering them well without having to get a separate amp right out the gate.

The SC-35 or SC-37 is capable of powering the RTi A series most thirsty speakers.

I have the SC-35 running RTi A9 fronts, RTi A7 rears and a CSi A6 center channel in 5.1 surround sound with a Polk DSW PRO 500.

I have had no complaints in with power and clarity present with this setup. I'm more than sure you will be satisfied with this combination.

The RTi A speakers are a little bright and I had to adjust the EQ after the automatic calibration to make the sound a bit warmer. This is not a problem for me but some people don't even want to touch the EQ after auto cal. If you are like that, then you would want to add a warm amp or do a different setup.

However, if you are going to use separate amp, I really do think the SC-35 and SC-37 is worth the price you have to pay.

The ICE amps are the main sale point for me. If not, a Pioneer Elite VXS-32 or 33 would be fine for less money and then use the separate amps.

Here is my thread with my setup.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117648&highlight=SRTer

jenkzy56

thanks for your input SRTer, really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.


jenkzy

SRTer

jenkzy56 wrote: »

thanks for your input SRTer, really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.


jenkzy

Well, what are you going to do?

jenkzy56

Well i just did a preliminary setup of my brand new Pio elite SC-37
Thing just stomps all over my onkyo 708!
I just did a quick MCACC setup and popped Hellboy 2 in the bluray player
Man O man this thing sounds nice!
I'm using Monitor 60s and 30s and a cs2 and I can't believe the improvement.

I'm going to be getting some ascend CMT 340se and CBM 170se soon
I can't wait to hear that combination.

My outlaw LFM-1 plus sounds nice but I'm thinking, 2 Epik legends would be nicer :-)

I have a lot of homework with this beast so I will get back with a more detailed review later.

jenkzy

Sherardp

jenkzy56 wrote: »

Well i just did a preliminary setup of my brand new Pio elite SC-37
Thing just stomps all over my onkyo 708!
I just did a quick MCACC setup and popped Hellboy 2 in the bluray player
Man O man this thing sounds nice!
I'm using Monitor 60s and 30s and a cs2 and I can't believe the improvement.

I'm going to be getting some ascend CMT 340se and CBM 170se soon
I can't wait to hear that combination.

My outlaw LFM-1 plus sounds nice but I'm thinking, 2 Epik legends would be nicer :-)

I have a lot of homework with this beast so I will get back with a more detailed review later.

jenkzy

Sounds like you have excellent results. I wanna say if you search the forums for "MCACC", you should see some additional tweaks. I posted some and so did another forum member if memory serves me correct. Try to find it if you can, if not I'll try to post it again.

mantis

jenkzy56 wrote: »

Well i just did a preliminary setup of my brand new Pio elite SC-37
Thing just stomps all over my onkyo 708!
I just did a quick MCACC setup and popped Hellboy 2 in the bluray player
Man O man this thing sounds nice!
I'm using Monitor 60s and 30s and a cs2 and I can't believe the improvement.

I'm going to be getting some ascend CMT 340se and CBM 170se soon
I can't wait to hear that combination.

My outlaw LFM-1 plus sounds nice but I'm thinking, 2 Epik legends would be nicer :-)

I have a lot of homework with this beast so I will get back with a more detailed review later.

jenkzy

Thanks for posting your thoughts and welcome to the ICE club. These receivers intrigue me. I came from B&K and Rotel separates and now I own a receiver. These Pioneer receivers are the best sounding I believe Pioneer ever released. They did an excellent job.

Honestly I'm so eagerly waiting the SC-09 replacement which should be released with this summers new models. I can feel the upgrade bug burning inside me. I can't stand to have the 2nd best receiver in the line. I'm a top of the line kinda guy.

codyc1ark

jenkzy56 wrote: »

Well i just did a preliminary setup of my brand new Pio elite SC-37
Thing just stomps all over my onkyo 708!
I just did a quick MCACC setup and popped Hellboy 2 in the bluray player
Man O man this thing sounds nice!
I'm using Monitor 60s and 30s and a cs2 and I can't believe the improvement.

I'm going to be getting some ascend CMT 340se and CBM 170se soon
I can't wait to hear that combination.

My outlaw LFM-1 plus sounds nice but I'm thinking, 2 Epik legends would be nicer :-)

I have a lot of homework with this beast so I will get back with a more detailed review later.

jenkzy

Glad to hear you liking it over the 708, as that unit was on my short list as well. If you do consider going dual Epik's, let me know, I may know someone who will take that Outlaw off of your hands (ME)!