Synthetic Oil

Jstas

Jeb85 wrote: »

the reason synthetics make older vehicals leak is more where the piston rings meet the cylinder walls because of its reduced friction properties, so don't put synthetic into a vehical with 150000miles or more

Could you elaborate on this, please? I'm not getting what you are saying.

ND13

I listen to the hundreds of service technicians I've worked with over the years. I've seen the difference inside engines that used synthetic and those that don't. A good example is the 2.7V6 they used in the Intrepid/Concorde. The same engine was used in the Sebring/Stratus. They were having a lot of issues with that engine in the LH cars but not in the Sebring/Stratus. A TSB came out and said to recommend synthetic oil to customers who had the engine in the LHs but never mentioned the Sebring/Stratus. It had something to do with the engine being in a north/south position in the LHs and transversely mounted in the Sebring/Stratus. Cooling issues and conventional oil getting all gunked up. I saw it my own eyes, it wasn't pretty. I'm not talking about 100k engines, either. I'm talking about low mileage engines. The folks that listened had no issues.

Jeb85

the molecules in the synthetic are thinner by construction, which creates less of a the worn rings to move apon the worn cylinder wall. the cylinders walls where most at the top of the ring travel(because of the compression and power stroke). The rings do make up the difference with this wear to a point of course. Regular oil has larger molecules and will make it harder for oil to pass by the rings and get burnt. but when synthetic is added in, oil can squeeze by the rings and therefore get burned because of these extremely small gaps.

Jstas

Jeb85 wrote: »

the molecules in the synthetic are thinner by construction, which creates less of a the worn rings to move apon the worn cylinder wall. the cylinders walls where most at the top of the ring travel(because of the compression and power stroke). The rings do make up the difference with this wear to a point of course. Regular oil has larger molecules and will make it harder for oil to pass by the rings and get burnt. but when synthetic is added in, oil can squeeze by the rings and therefore get burned because of these extremely small gaps.

What you are saying is a problem that should really be repaired because it won't be long before conventional oil starts slipping past too if the rings are that worn.

Jeb85

Jstas wrote: »

What you are saying is a problem that should really be repaired because it won't be long before conventional oil starts slipping past too if the rings are that worn.

actually the time would be alot longer than you would think, but if the problem has been occuring with regular oil you would need to rebuild the engine(no need to get into details but there is alot more to it than just putting new rings on the pistons) the rings being worn, is less then you would think. If you use synthetic and this is happening, change back to regular oil and it may dissapear.

Jeb85

The category for oils from API is S for gasoline engines, usually found on the circle on the bottle, it'll have another letter beside it SM or SL seeing as they are the most current.
C is for Diesel engines most current would be CJ-4 but you'll find CH CG CF and CI still

SDA SRS 1.2

Two of my three vehicles require synthetic oil and I choose to use it (Mobil1) in all three. I enjoy the slight improvement in mpg's I get using it and knowing it does a good job protecting the engine, even waiting 6-7,000 miles between changes. The only negative experience I had was many years ago when I switched to synthetic in my '75 Camaro with 110,000 miles. It ran fine but started using oil - I switched back to dino in that vehicle and everything was fine again.

ben62670

Ford

disneyjoe7

I run Amsoil in my engines my and my wife cars, with our transmissions, my generator, my differential. I wouldn't use anything else, well WIX filters.

noscivic

heiney9 wrote: »

What car enignes and mileage did this occur for YOU? Or did you just read about it.

THese were on Honda engines over 100k. If you drive an older car with a timing chain and not a timing belt, and dont mind leaks on the garage floor, use synthetics they are better. What can hapen is the synthetic oil will leak past the camshaft(s) seals and crank seal and get on the timing belt, bad news after prolonged exposure. Also you can get that nasty "whats that burning smell" when the oil leaks onto an exhaust manifold or other exhaust component. Im not knocking synthetics, I use Valvoline synthetics in my wife's new Honda Pilot and my Subaru Legacy, but in the car that I race, I use conventional Valvoline and change it after every event, because of blow-by.

BTW thank Jstas for defending the newb.

Gary

Jeb85

noscivic wrote: »

THese were on Honda engines over 100k. If you drive an older car with a timing chain and not a timing belt, and dont mind leaks on the garage floor, use synthetics they are better. What can hapen is the synthetic oil will leak past the camshaft(s) seals and crank seal and get on the timing belt, bad news after prolonged exposure. Also you can get that nasty "whats that burning smell" when the oil leaks onto an exhaust manifold or other exhaust component. Im not knocking synthetics, I use Valvoline synthetics in my wife's new Honda Pilot and my Subaru Legacy, but in the car that I race, I use conventional Valvoline and change it after every event, because of blow-by.

BTW thank Jstas for defending the newb.

Gary

Could you please explain why the synthetic oil would leak at the cam and crank seals?
With most all hondas that have timing belts, for instance the older civics it is regular maintance to chance the timing belt at 100000km along with the crack and cam seals

sucks2beme

I drive cars into the dirt. I don't know that using synthetic changed much,
but using lighter weight oil was drip city on a lot of older cars.
Maybe someone should buy two new Hondas, run one on dino,
one on synthetic for 200k. Let us know how it goes in a couple of years.:D

Jeb85

sucks2beme wrote: »

I drive cars into the dirt. I don't know that using synthetic changed much,
but using lighter weight oil was drip city on a lot of older cars.
Maybe someone should buy two new Hondas, run one on dino,
one on synthetic for 200k. Let us know how it goes in a couple of years.:D

i like that idea!!!!:D

audiobliss

I'll conduct the testing for that!

TNRabbit

Jeb85 wrote: »

Could you please explain why the synthetic oil would leak at the cam and crank seals?
With most all hondas that have timing belts, for instance the older civics it is regular maintance to chance the timing belt at 100000km along with the crack and cam seals

A change to synthetic on a high-mileage vehicle will often cause leaking at the main seals because the old dino oil tends to build up sludge at these points. The synthetic cleans out the sludge, opening up worn seals to leakage. I have a '95 Ford Probe with 272,000 miles that is leaking like a sieve (@ 3 qts per 1000 miles) because if this exact issue. Still runs great, though!

heiney9

Sludge really only happens if you don't change dino oil on a regular basis. So yes in some cases if you've neglected your engine (or the previous owner if it's a used car) up to the 100K mileage mark then switching to synth might be detrimental. But why would someone who didn't take care to properly change their oil want to switch to synth anyways?

billbillw

How does this turn into a 4 page thread, AGAIN? Talk about beating a dead horse. We just discussed this ad nauseum in January!

heiney9

billbillw wrote: »

How does this turn into a 4 page thread, AGAIN? Talk about beating a dead horse. We just discussed this ad nauseum in January!

I know...............I posted the links.........but apparently there's more to say!!!!

steveinaz

I have used synthetics for 20 years, primarily Mobil 1, and have never experienced a problem, nor have I ever needed any engine work done.

That's all the research I need.

Jstas

billbillw wrote: »

How does this turn into a 4 page thread, AGAIN? Talk about beating a dead horse. We just discussed this ad nauseum in January!

It's been discussed many more times before that. Even before either of you got here.

It won't stop. As long as there is an Internet, there is an avenue for self-proclaimed experts on anything to ignore the facts on everything and post about it. The Internet is both the best and worst thing to ever happen to the free exchange of information. At the same time, it is amazing at how powerful a tool like http://www.google.com really is yet how so few actually use it. With Google, the world is literally at your fingertips. Most of the stuff I posted in this thread can easily be found on Google. Hell, half of what I know I learned through researching. Google can make you seem like an expert and douchebag, whiners too stupid to use a search engine will call you a "know-it-all" but at least you'll know you're right and you have evidence to back it up.

doggie750

I respect you for being a hard head so what you want from me? FACTS/ Bench test/ engine data/ additive package/ Concentrates/ polymer/ base oil ratio/ volume ratio/ treat rate ratio/ formulation.....?:cool:

I R&D/ cross ref/ compared all the commercial oil nationwide and GLOBAL.

i can't disclose who i work for coz i will loose all my polks.....he he he

doggie750

steveinaz wrote: »

I have used synthetics for 20 years, primarily Mobil 1, and have never experienced a problem, nor have I ever needed any engine work done.

That's all the research I need.

Per my data, MOBIL1 (EXXON) is the best in the market as far as synthetics. But as stated above, you don't need to use this unless you are in the desert and got the engine running for 24/7.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Wow...

Ok after reading through 4 pages, I have a few observations:

1 - People apparently feel very strongly about oil. Again this wasn't a 'is synthetic better than conventional oil' thread, yet several people have managed to turn it into one. I simply asked about the formula change to Mobil 1 and how it compares to other synthetics.

2 - What's with the name-calling in the tags these days. Granted I don't see eye to eye with John on everything, but he knows his car stuff and as I expected gave me the in depth explanation I was hoping for - which is why I specifically asked for his input in my original post.

3 - I did learn alot about oil, so that's good. I looked around on Google, but it's easier to ask here when I know we have several car guys that can explain it to me and give me their insights.

ND13

I agree, the tag thing is not an advantage for or a plus to our forum. I'd like to see the feature eliminated, if not, make the poster of the tag public. I bet that would end the majority of the snide tags.

audiobliss

Or allow anyone to delete a tag.

doggie750

:cool:I finally read the thread and a little that I know that this argument is cyclical. I believe that JSTAS is in trade as well as me/ along with the other subject matter expert so I suggest to close this thread. I nominate JSTAS as the oil guru and not me....:cool:........my claims about oil still stands!!!!:cool:

AudioGenics

The wear analysis of the engine oil indicated there may be more wear when the synthetic oil is used.

from your cited source :
http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=217836

Jstas

joseph.v.chen wrote: »

The wear analysis of the engine oil indicated there may be more wear when the synthetic oil is used.

from your cited source :
http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/default.asp?lbid=217836

HA! You make laugh you cheeky little monkey!

Again, you pulled it out of context and it is a singular instance with specific, high load conditions. But go ahead, twist it how you want to. Try to make it seem more than it is.

From the comments I've seen from others, it's already been well established that you're a special little guy and we need to treat you with the kid gloves.

Have fun and when you can formulate an actual argument instead of throwing out a snippet of information and holding it up as evidence to the contrary, then we'll let you play with the big boys. Until then, you should probably go play in traffic or something.



For those that don't know or didn't read the article that Mr. Chen is quoting, the intent of the study was "A comparison is made of fuel and engine oil consumption of diesel highway maintenance trucks with 27,000 lb gross vehicle weight using standard 15W-40 engine oil and synthetic engine oil."

The test was conducted with 8 vehicles in a control group and 8 more in a test group. The tests were conducted over 18 months in Maine and they were highway miles. The test results showed decrease in fuel consumption for vehicles using a synthetic oil. The test was to determine fuel consumption which it did show. A small note at the bottom of the article points out that the wear analysis showed that there MAY be more wear in a synthetic oil engine. There was no conclusive evidence published for or against that statement published.

But what they did not list in the article was several things important to Mr. Chen's statement and implications. They did not say if ALL synthetic equipped vehicles showed excessive wear. They did not give a break down of what vehicles had damaging operational conditions like idling excessivly in a truck stop or outside a loading dock in the winter. How many cold starts were made in excessivly cold weather. If any of the trucks were over-loaded. If any off the trucks overheated. The biggest issue with Mr. Chen's statement and implication is that the test was not done to determine wear characteristics of synthetic oils. It was done to determine if synthetic oils gave a margin of cost effectiveness over conventional 15W-40 oil in regards to fuel consumption. Further more, if one reads the citations and follows the links, the study was done in 1984 and seems to be more of a cost-benefit analysis for a transportation board.

But, because Mr. Chen found one niggling little snippet and posted it here, that means that synthetics are bad and we should all avoid them like the plague. OK? Got that? Good.


As for doggie750, the patronization can be kept to yourself. I never claimed to be an expert. You did but have offered nothing but your own claims as proof of that expert status. I know I'm not an expert, I just know where and how to find the pertinent information.

Jeb85

TNRabbit wrote: »

A change to synthetic on a high-mileage vehicle will often cause leaking at the main seals because the old dino oil tends to build up sludge at these points. The synthetic cleans out the sludge, opening up worn seals to leakage. I have a '95 Ford Probe with 272,000 miles that is leaking like a sieve (@ 3 qts per 1000 miles) because if this exact issue. Still runs great, though!

I think you should really get your leaks repaired those sound major. As for sludge building up on a shaft that is constantly rotating or inbetween the seal and shaft because sludge/any debris would make the seal tear very fast. i have never seen any sludge build up inbetween seals or on any internal shafts in my experience. But thats just my opinion.
I do think either oil is good and will protect your engine as long as services are done on time.

AudioGenics

I appreciate your comments.... along with the side remarks.

I read every one of your references and they were all informative.

Information from all points of view are welcomed.