Synthetic Oil

AsSiMiLaTeD

I've always used Mobil 1 in our vehicles without any problems. I've always been told it's the best synthetic (within reasonable cost anyway) and that's just what i've always used.

I've now read in a couple different places online (because we all know everything on the interwebs is true) that they changed the fomula and it's not as good any longer.

Can someone tell me if this is true?

Is Mobil 1 still the oil to get, is it worth the price premium over something like Kendall or the Castrol Syntec stuff?

Is there something out there that's better that's not crazy expensive? I only change my oil about once every 3 months (about 6k miles) so I don't mind spending a little more for better stuff, but don't want to pay $30 a quart either.

Any info is helpful.

John......you out there?

nadams

Cruise on over to www.bobistheoilguy.com and check out their forums. You'll learn more about oil than you ever wanted to know.

MikeC78

They did change their formula some time ago, IIRC. Amsoil or Redline is the best for synthetic, but not as easy to grab locally like Mobil1. I still use Mobil1 oil and filters because of that reason alone. I will also use K&N filters, dependent which is in stock at the time.

jcaut

No doubt synthetic oils have advantages over conventional oils. Will you actually see any benefit? I think very few people operate their vehicles under severe-enough conditions or for extended drain intervals that would "require" a synthetic. Conventional oils are a lot better than they were a few years ago, too.

Is Mobil 1 the best synthetic? It's certainly the most widely available and one of the cheapest. I used to be a Mobil 1 user and I don't have anything bad to say about it, but I decided that I wasn't getting my money's worth out of it versus a good conventional oil, so I switched.

If you really want to read all about it, look here.
{edit} I see nadams beat me to it.

ND13

I used Mobil 1 for years, but lately have switched to Valvoline Synthetic. Almost every service tech I know uses Valvoline and I can get 5 qt jugs for $21. I don't go 7k between changes, because I have yet to find a filter that's good for more than 5k.

Hopefully most of you know better than put any of those "snake" oil additives that contain teflon or graphite in your crankcases. Never put a solid in your engine.

haimoc

ND13 wrote: »

I used Mobil 1 for years, but lately have switched to Valvoline Synthetic. Almost every service tech I know uses Valvoline and I can get 5 qt jugs for $21. I don't go 7k between changes, because I have yet to find a filter that's good for more than 5k.

Hopefully most of you know better than put any of those "snake" oil additives that contain teflon or graphite in your crankcases. Never put a solid in your engine.

I am still with Mobil 1 synthetic.. I am interested in the cheaper alternative.. How do you like Valvoline compared to the Mobile 1? 5W20 available?

Joe08867

I used Mobil 1 for the longest time but like ND13 I switched over to Valvoline and have been using it ever since.

I tried Pennzoils synthetic but my last car liked to burn there blend for some reason. Never had a problem with Mobil 1, Valvoline or the upmarket brands like Amsoil, Redline and such.

If you change your oil regularly the need for synthetic isn't as warranted but if you have never used conventional in the car I would not switch now.

timlitton

I use Castrol Syntec because that's what BMW recommends.

So what if I drive an AMC Spirit? JK

heiney9

This has been discussed as well a flame war before..........

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77023&highlight=mobil

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19626&highlight=mobil

H9

dkg999

+1 on the Valvoline Synthetic and also their Durablend oil.

ND13

Pennzoil has been **** ever since Quaker State bought them or merged or whatever.

jlandbl

I have always used Mobil 1 instead of conventional oil in my high performance cars. I have no complaints. The most economical way to buy it is at Walmart in 5 gallon jugs. Mobil 1 also offers an extended performance version which calls for oil changes once every 15k miles (this is what BMW uses). If you go with the extended performance one, you must use an extended performance oil filter as well otherwise the filter will need replacing before the oil. When I had my Jeep SRT-8 (6.1, 420hp), it was factory filled with 0w-40. I switched to Mobil 1 15w-50 which quieted the engine whirring down and resulted in smoother response. Sorry for the paragraph, just sharing my experiences.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Just to clarify, I wasn't wanting to start the conventional vs synthetic debate.

Again, I change my oil 4 times a year, it's not something I do every week. Spending $40 or $50 more per oil change isn't a big deal to me. I was wondering about the Mobil oil changes, and will check out the site linked above.

I just want the best synthetic oil I can get for ~$10 a quart or so.

As for filters, I've looked at cross-section cuts and the oem Toyota filters seems to be the best for me, so that's what I stick with.

AsSiMiLaTeD

jlandbl wrote: »

The most economical way to buy it is at Walmart in 5 gallon jugs.

That'd be 5 quart jugs...

steveinaz

I use synthetic (Mobil1) mostly becuase I am terrible about doing changes on time. Synthetic can be run much longer without worry. I use Shell Rotella T synthetic in my quads (Suzuki King Quad 750axi and 450axi) because those motors take a beating.

If you do the math, synthetic is a very wise choice, both economically and longevity of your engine.

heiney9

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Just to clarify, I wasn't wanting to start the conventional vs synthetic debate.

Again, I change my oil 4 times a year, it's not something I do every week. Spending $40 or $50 more per oil change isn't a big deal to me. I was wondering about the Mobil oil changes, and will check out the site linked above.

I just want the best synthetic oil I can get for ~$10 a quart or so.

As for filters, I've looked at cross-section cuts and the oem Toyota filters seems to be the best for me, so that's what I stick with.

I know you didn't want to start the debate..........but that's how it always goes. This is the equivalent to a cable debate on an auto forum. Hopefully it will stay civilized.

FTR- I use Mobil 1 0w40 synthetic in my GTi and recently had to have the head gasket replaced. The engine looked brand new inside. A good filter, proper change intervals and synthetic is what I believe in.

H9

Jstas

Mobil 1 changed the quality of the base they used to cut costs on a rising market price for bases. Bases get refined out of crude and are considerably more expensive than straight crude. You need a base of dino oil to make synthetic. Mobil dropped the base and arguably, quality, about 10+ years ago now it seems. Oil prices went back down but Mobil stuck with the cheaper base to increase profit margins.

Synthetics are good no matter what company you use. The more expensive synthetics start with higher quality bases. They usually have smaller distributions and lower profit margins because of production scale and that drives prices up also.

As far as the best on the market? Hard to say. There are ones that out perform most everything else. Royal Purple, AMSOIL, Redline and a few others with racing backgrounds too are honestly the best you can get by the numbers. The best between the tops? Subjective.

Personally, in race cars, I've used Redline and Royal Purple depending on which one was available at the time. Royal Purple is easier to get most times and that goes for the synthetic lubricants too. These were serious race cars with power output in the thousands and 1/4 mile times in sub 9 second territories. Not a clapped out Camaro with used slicks and a wheezing 350 under the hood that I just called a "race car".

In street cars I've been using AMSOIL pretty much exclusively for years. My Lightning has had nothing but AMSOIL. It performs well, isn't that expensive (about $35-$40 for 6 quarts) and actually lasts. Many of the other racers I know use AMSOIL in their cars, both street and race too. Nobody has a bad word to say, except for price. But you get what you pay for. AMSOIL uses a very high quality base. There is only one grade higher (some synthetics that use that top level cost $20+ a quart) and AMSOIL was one grade higher than Mobil 1, might be two grades now.

As far as off-the-shelf stuff, if the price per quart is around 3-5 bucks a quart, it's a mid level base like Mobil 1. If it's less than 3 bucks a quart, it's a blend. If it's 5-8 bucks a quart, it's a higher base and most likely a higher quality. Anything above that is essentially and aircraft grade lubricant and very expensive and likely overkill and wasted money in a car.

disneyjoe7

I use Amsoil because I think its the best oil you could use. I just wish you could get the oil easier like Walmart or what ever, but its not like Walmart has the best product its just the major sale product.

Kinda like Bose vs. everything else. Its not the best, but its easier to get it.

Jstas

steveinaz wrote: »

I use synthetic (Mobil1) mostly becuase I am terrible about doing changes on time. Synthetic can be run much longer without worry. I use Shell Rotella T synthetic in my quads (Suzuki King Quad 750axi and 450axi) because those motors take a beating.

If you do the math, synthetic is a very wise choice, both economically and longevity of your engine.

Watch the Rotella T in those rides. It's meant more for heavy duty diesel engines and consequently has a higher sulfer content. That's not so good for gasoline engines. Rotella T is OK for off-road use but it doesn't play well with gasoline and can chew up seals, rings and such quicker.

heiney9

Be sure no matter what seems more "expensive" that the oil you use is manufacturer approved. It's not much of an issue after warranty time. But the particular manufacturer has a formulation(s) that are manufacturer approved then you're pretty safe. As the manufacturer of your automobile has tested that specific product formulation and knows what it will/won't do in long term tests.

Royal Purple; Redline; Amsoil, etc always get mentioned as the "best" except very few if any formulations are manufacturer approved. Some say it's because of the limited distribution, therefore manufacturers don't waste time and money giving their stamp of approval. I know many of the European car manufacturer's are denying warranty claims because owners don't use "approved" types of oil.

If you look on the outside of the container it lists all the various auto approvals. I would look in your owners manual for a recommendation and then follow it.

YMMV, and I can already see people saying well they "pay" them for those ratings, etc. I don't buy that

H9

heiney9

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I use Amsoil because I think its the best oil you could use. I just wish you could get the oil easier like Walmart or what ever, but its not like Walmart has the best product its just the major sale product.

Kinda like Bose vs. everything else. Its not the best, but its easier to get it.

Who says it's the best and is it approved by the manufacturer of your automobile to be used in your car?

TNRabbit

Any good synthetic will beat the pants off dino motor oil. Changing the filter is the BIG deal.

I COMPLETELY rebuilt a Toyota 3.0 last year with ZERO cylinder wear after 218,000 miles on synthetic oil. I'm SOLD.

disneyjoe7

heiney9 wrote: »

Who says it's the best and is it approved by the manufacturer of your automobile to be used in your car?

Fair enough but I say its better then must sync oils. But I can say I used Royal Purple once, it was ok but I liked Amsoil oil in the engine. It just sounded better, engines talk to me.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I know for a fact that Amsoil isn't approved in my 4Runner, but that's not really a concern since I'm out of warranty anyway. I'd like to get 200k miles out of our car, so I'm looking for the best way to get maximum life out of my engine.

I realize I'll probably start having to replace some parts down the road, but when the engine goes I'll call it quits and move on to another car, hopefully another 4Runner if they're still being made and Toyota hasn't ruined it yet by turning it into another soccer mom sub with independent rear suspension.

John, informative post as always, thanks.

disneyjoe7

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I know for a fact that Amsoil isn't approved in my 4Runner, but that's not really a concern since I'm out of warranty anyway. I'd like to get 200k miles out of our car, so I'm looking for the best way to get maximum life out of my engine.

Huh, I use it in my 4Runner. It's is blows up, Amsoil will fix it. They stand behind there oil, they know its that good.

disneyjoe7

In fact I start using Amsoil product in my Automatic Transmission, and the differential in my 4Runner.


I should say my 4Runner isn't in any warranty. It's my warranty. But I never really use the dealer service, unless I know its something they should fix for free. So I can count on one hand the times I went to the dealer service for anything.

dkg999

I run Valvoline synthetic in the motor of my '04 Chevy Silverado, and I run Mobil 1 synthetic in the transmission, transfer case, and differentials. Gas mileage went up a solid .3 mpg when I made the switch to synthetic in the drive train.

Jstas

heiney9 wrote: »

Be sure no matter what seems more "expensive" that the oil you use is manufacturer approved. It's not much of an issue after warranty time. But the particular manufacturer has a formulation(s) that are manufacturer approved then you're pretty safe. As the manufacturer of your automobile has tested that specific product formulation and knows what it will/won't do in long term tests.

Royal Purple; Redline; Amsoil, etc always get mentioned as the "best" except very few if any formulations are manufacturer approved. Some say it's because of the limited distribution, therefore manufacturers don't waste time and money giving their stamp of approval. I know many of the European car manufacturer's are denying warranty claims because owners don't use "approved" types of oil.

If you look on the outside of the container it lists all the various auto approvals. I would look in your owners manual for a recommendation and then follow it.

YMMV, and I can already see people saying well they "pay" them for those ratings, etc. I don't buy that

H9

The approvals are up to manufacturer discretion and are based on country of origin. In the United States, for emissions controlled vehicles (i.e.: street legal) an oil that meets or exceeds the American Petroleum Institutes performance standards for lubricants will be adequate to your needs. Virtually all synthetic lubricants have properties that exceed those standards because it is easier to engineer the product when you are synthesizing it. It's like genetically engineering engine oil.

The foreign companies do not recommend certain lubricants because they haven't been tested and they cannot guarantee results. There is the ILSAC (International Lubrication Standardization and Approval Committee) which has its own standards set which are close to the API standards set. There is also ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europ

Jstas

Oh, some info on bases and grades:

From Wikipedia on base grades:

Lubricant base stocks are categorized into five groups by the API.

Group I base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum which is further refined with solvent extraction processes to improve certain properties such as oxidation resistance and to remove wax.

Group II base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum that has been hydrocracked to further refine and purify it.

Group III base stocks have similar characteristics to Group II base stocks, except that Group III base stocks have higher viscosity indexes. Group III base stocks are produced by further hydrocracking of Group II base stocks, or of hydroisomerized slack wax, (a byproduct of the dewaxing process).

Group IV base stock are polyalphaolefins (PAOs).

Group V is a catch-all group for any base stock not described by Groups I to IV. Examples of group V base stocks include polyol esters, polyalkylene glycols (PAG oils), and perfluoropolyalkylethers (PFPAEs).

Groups I and II are commonly referred to as mineral oils, group III is typically referred to as synthetic (except in Germany and Japan, where they must not be called synthetic) and group IV is a synthetic oil. Group V base oils are so diverse that there is no catch-all description.

Some of the really expensive synthetics are made with a blend of Group V bases to get the base they need to meet standards. But you are honestly looking at lubricants well beyond what is needed for use in an automobile. These synthetics often do not benefit from the same long life that a Group III or IV base lubricant does because to meet the standards, they must add additives. Additives wear out and come out of suspension faster than if the properties they bring were part of the lubricant base. So they can have a decreased life and you will only see them in racing, off-road or other extreme condition environments.

Mobil 1 went to a Group III base years ago. AMSOIL uses a Group IV as well as Redline, Royal Purple and a few other full synthetics.

From Wikipedia on service classes:

API service classes

The API service classes[4] have two general classifications: S for "service" (originating from spark ignition) (typical passenger cars and light trucks using gasoline engines), and C for "commercial" (originating from compression ignition) (typical diesel equipment).

Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.

The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard. The obsolete SH standard was the last standard to contain the integral zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) levels needed for proper lubrication of approx. pre-1990 cars[citation needed]. Oils with higher ZDDP levels are still available from some manufactures, although much information is proprietary.

There are seven diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete.

It is possible for an oil to conform to both the gasoline and diesel standards. Engine oil which has been tested and meets the API standards may display the API starburst symbol with the service designation on containers sold to oil users.[5]

From Wikipedia on synthetic bases:

Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true" synthetic oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are derived from either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V non-mineral bases. True synthetics include classes of lubricants like synthetic esters as well as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group IV).

Higher purity and therefore better property control theoretically means synthetic oil has good mechanical properties at extremes of high and low temperatures. The molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere with solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum base.

Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. With their improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers, which are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages, and thus they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils. However, they still fill up with particulate matter, although at a lower rate compared to conventional oils, and the oil filter still fills and clogs up over time. So, periodic oil and filter changes should still be done with synthetic oil; but some synthetic oil suppliers suggest that the intervals between oil changes can be longer, sometimes as long as 10,000–15,000 miles.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle! G. I. JOE!!!

steveinaz

Jstas wrote: »

Watch the Rotella T in those rides. It's meant more for heavy duty diesel engines and consequently has a higher sulfer content. That's not so good for gasoline engines. Rotella T is OK for off-road use but it doesn't play well with gasoline and can chew up seals, rings and such quicker.

No worries, Rotella T synthetic (5W-40) has no friction modifiers and is specifically recommended for wet-clutch applications. I also used it in the past with high-strung 600cc sportbikes, for the same reason.

nadams

Jstas wrote: »

Watch the Rotella T in those rides. It's meant more for heavy duty diesel engines and consequently has a higher sulfer content. That's not so good for gasoline engines. Rotella T is OK for off-road use but it doesn't play well with gasoline and can chew up seals, rings and such quicker.

I run rotella in my motorcycle. It works well with wet clutches. Lots of guys over on BITOG run rotella 15-40 in bikes, quads, etc...