Fix GM & Ford: US Loan to Honda & Toyota to buy them!

mantis

FA - Q wrote: »

-im proud to say ive never owned an import auto in my 50 yrs...very proud

-i recently talked to a retired federal mogul worker...this person bought a lexus...i laughed at their audacity [after selling US auto parts for a living]

-agreed unions brought down the US automakers...and these ceo's should take a $1.oo salary w/ no bonus s , like iacoca did chrysler [classy]

-i know a few of you feel honda and toyota are built here [US]...their HQ and profits are NOT

-1st tv's and most audio, then breweries and now American automobiles


-no import cars allowed on my propertys PERIOD... never have been , never will

-isnt anybody embarressed to drive and own imports ???, i sure as hell would be



-UNBELIEVABLE


-/mx

Your comments are very closed minded. Thats fine for you but I have owned both american and Imports. I prefer the imports due to better build quality. Easy compare here is a friend owns a Ford explorer and my wife owns a Nissan Xterra. Both are close in age and milage. My wife's Xterra has had no work done to it. Just oil, tires , brakes, etc. My friends Explorer needs tranny work, drivers door handle broke off, window switches went bad, air conditioning doesn't work anymore , rear wiper motor went bad, needs ball joints , actually 2nd time now , radio display broke , heater core went bad. One good thing about his truck is it's nice looking and runs good. O and the heat still blows warm.

So bottom line for me is this, I used to love american cars, I thought fix and repair daily was normal and is what you do when you own a car. Then I worked for Nissan and learned a different way. I have owned 4 Nissans now and none of them ever needed any repair. None. I hate the fact we americans don't build a good car. If we had better quality, I would buy one again. Until that day I'll stick with Nissan.

Dan

bobman1235

FA - Q wrote: »

-isnt anybody embarressed to drive and own imports ???, i sure as hell would be

I'd be much MORE embarrassed to be dumb enough to spend my hard-earned money on an inferior product. Isn't that more embarrassing? Buying a piece of junk just because of where it comes from? It has nothing to do with pride in one's country, all things equal, I'd buy American if I could. All things are not equal. Not even close. The American automakers are the ones who are missing out on the pride in their country, because their legacy to this country over teh past 30 years has turned from the creators of the automobile revolution to the butt of a joke. YOu want to be mad at someone, be mad at the big 3, they created this situation.

I've owned a decent mix of American and import, and you can always tell the difference. Especially when I was younger and bought used cars, as they were getting up in mileage. For Americans, getting up in mileage was 100k+. For the Honda and Acura I owned, the same level of wear and tear was 200k+, and those cars STILL required far less maintenance and headaches.

Even when I started getting new cars, I bought a Dodge Dakota. The thing had to have a differential replaced in the first few months I owned it, but beyond that, the interior felt like I was driving around in something made 30 years ago. It amazes me that American automatkers haven't figured out how to tighten up a cab and make it feel modern and well-made. All the money the spend in R&D (presumably) and they won't lift a finger on simple t hings that go a LONG way.

I've had my Subaru for almost 70k miles now, and haven't had a single complaint (except I kinda wish I had the turbo ).



And wizzy, you're really not helping your point at all. You're an absolute looney toon.

brettw22

I heard a proposal by someone (who shall remain nameless atm) that the Big 3 should be going to the Oil Companies to get money since they're so closely attached...........interesting to say the least.

jdhdiggs

Do you REALLY want to give the oil companies that much control over the car you drive? Sweet, we can only buy 8mpg cars!

brettw22

No......but I thought it was an interesting twist on the whole debacle........

All I hope is that Chrysler is still around when I go get the 300 when I'm not traveling so much. Right now it makes no sense to buy one considering I'm not home enough to actually drive the thing.........

treitz3

American cars inferior? HA!

I'd like to see any foreign truck do what my Chevy does. Fact is, I won't. 109,000 miles and still running strong, thank you.

Treitz3 - proud to drive an AMERICAN vehicle.

treitz3

You know, it's funny how the very same people who complain about or comment about having to send American dollars overseas to purchase oil wouldn't apparently hesitate to send American dollars overseas for a foreign vehicle.

Hmmmmm.......

VR3

bobman1235 wrote: »

the interior felt like I was driving around in something made 30 years ago. It amazes me that American automatkers haven't figured out how to tighten up a cab and make it feel modern and well-made. All the money the spend in R&D (presumably) and they won't lift a finger on simple t hings that go a LONG way.
.

Dodge has gotta have the worst interior ever made. Period. Im sure it is different now - but until the truck market really got competitive in 2004 with the new F150's interior (then everyone got their crap together) -- Dodge was especially bad...

I still think the F150 leads the way in interior with Toyota & Nissan fighting for a close second....

The interior in my 04 is spotless. Very good quality, clean cut, after four years still looks new.

mantis

treitz3 wrote: »

You know, it's funny how the very same people who complain about or comment about having to send American dollars overseas to purchase oil wouldn't apparently hesitate to send American dollars overseas for a foreign vehicle.

Hmmmmm.......

Nissan , Toyota , Honda which are the big 3 in Japanese cars employee Americans. All the dealerships have Americans working in them.

Bottom line is this, if Americans built a better vehicle , then they would not be where they are. Not to mention I would have never left GM.

I'm one of those people who lost there job during all this madness. I'm as bitter as it comes. I don't want to see any American lose there job , but the big 3 American car companies did this all to them self. They easily could have been a lot better, look at the Corvette , one of our very best vehicles build quality. Look at Ford Trucks, there is hope , they should put there money into quality control instead of a second Private jet.

wizzy

treitz3 wrote: »

You know, it's funny how the very same people who complain about or comment about having to send American dollars overseas to purchase oil wouldn't apparently hesitate to send American dollars overseas for a foreign vehicle.

Hmmmmm.......

The difference is where the money is going. Of the money I spend on my Toyota, lots of it goes to workers in the US and respent in the US. Oil money goes to the Middle East, much of it to Saudi Arabia, which is where about 99% of the 9-11 bombers came from.

Toyota may be headquartered in Japan but it is a PUBLIC COMPANY listed on the stock market. It is owned by the share holders, many of whom are American.

sucks2beme

Once again, I did say OTHER THAN A TRUCK, there's nothing they make
I'd buy. That's what made this crisis. We used more gas on SUVs and big
trucks. Moms around here were tooling around in double cab trucks,
Surburbans, and Hummers. Speculators decided to take advantage and
run up prices. Everyone decided to buy smaller cars. Detroit doesn't have
but two decent small car models. Sales collapsed. End of story.
Replay of 1979. The management in Detroit refused to take small
cars seriously. Same with the quality loop. IF there's a problem being
reported at dealerships, find and fix the problem on the production line.
Toyota has screw ups. They just fix there's in a couple of months
instead of building vehicles with the same bad part/process for eight
years. And given the long list of Ford truck problems, I'd have to rethink
buying an F150.

shack

treitz3 wrote: »

You know, it's funny how the very same people who complain about or comment about having to send American dollars overseas to purchase oil wouldn't apparently hesitate to send American dollars overseas for a foreign vehicle.

Hmmmmm.......

One is a choice...one is not.

I have no problem purchasing foreign oil if it is my choice and there are alternatives. At this point because of our dependence on oil there is no viable alternative. If I could have a real choice with electric, hydrogen cell, etc, and if I choose to buy a vehicle that needs foreign oil to operate...then at least it is a choice. Now I'm just glad to get it.

shack

mantis wrote:

They easily could have been a lot better, look at the Corvette , one of our very best vehicles build quality.

GM loses money on every Corvette they sell.

mantis

sucks2beme wrote: »

Once again, I did say OTHER THAN A TRUCK, there's nothing they make
I'd buy. That's what made this crisis. We used more gas on SUVs and big
trucks. Moms around here were tooling around in double cab trucks,
Surburbans, and Hummers. Speculators decided to take advantage and
run up prices. Everyone decided to buy smaller cars. Detroit doesn't have
but two decent small car models. Sales collapsed. End of story.
Replay of 1979. The management in Detroit refused to take small
cars seriously. Same with the quality loop. IF there's a problem being
reported at dealerships, find and fix the problem on the production line.
Toyota has screw ups. They just fix there's in a couple of months
instead of building vehicles with the same bad part/process for eight
years. And given the long list of Ford truck problems, I'd have to rethink
buying an F150.

So very true. It's so sad 2. It makes me sick thinking that all 3 companies could go belly up over the next few years. Just another sad day in American History. I hate all this crap.

Dan

Joe08867

sucks2beme wrote: »

Once again, I did say OTHER THAN A TRUCK, there's nothing they make
I'd buy. That's what made this crisis. We used more gas on SUVs and big
trucks. Moms around here were tooling around in double cab trucks,
Surburbans, and Hummers. Speculators decided to take advantage and
run up prices. Everyone decided to buy smaller cars. Detroit doesn't have
but two decent small car models. Sales collapsed. End of story.
Replay of 1979. The management in Detroit refused to take small
cars seriously. Same with the quality loop. IF there's a problem being
reported at dealerships, find and fix the problem on the production line.
Toyota has screw ups. They just fix there's in a couple of months
instead of building vehicles with the same bad part/process for eight
years. And given the long list of Ford truck problems, I'd have to rethink
buying an F150.

The problem is more that Americans weren't buying small cars. The best selling Car was a Toyota Camry and before that a Taurus. This is not a small car by world standards. I like smaller cars and have owned several but when you are out on a highway all you see is SUV after SUV with the occasional Pick-up mixed in. They have made pretty decent small cars in the past but they didn't sell. So why would you place the time and money in research for something you can't get off the sales floor.

Examples, Dodge with the Omni and it's twins, Ford with the Fiesta, Chevy with the Sprinter, Chevette, and the Japanese built Geo's.

I do agree that they should have seen some of this coming. How long could oil prices stay low even without Katrina as a Catalyst for the oil companies to stick it to us.

Also, the cars made oversees mostly do not conform to US standards for crash worthiness. That is why they aren't brought here.

Ford I have to admit is at least working hardest on this. The new Festiva they are bringing to market is a world car. The same one here is made over in Europe. Will it fly? Probably not, there will be a quick burst and then it will die like all the other small cars the big 3 have built. Think PT Cruiser,

To help validate my point look at what happened to AMC. They had several small cars (Eagle, Gremlin, Pacer)that were reliable. Maybe not the greatest looking cars but they still went the way of the Dodo.

When most people think American car they think boat not jet ski. It is sad honestly.

sucks2beme

The most popular vehicle is the US was a Ford F150. Not a car.
That's why Toyota jumped into big trucks. And Toyota I bet
wishes they hadn't of. The new full size plant just came off furlough
last week to make trucks again. That cost them a bundle.
The only real small trucks still made are the Nissan, Mazda and Ford Ranger.
And the Ranger is a re-badged Mazda.
I have never owned a Japanese car. I did own a couple of VW rabbits
from 1979-1982. Those were a real POS. Every small Detroit car
of the 80's was also a complete POS. So were Dodge minivans.
My 2002 Mountaineer doesn't seem to be doing very well. At 40k
I've had way too many problems. And my son who is an underwriter
for extended auto warranties tells me they have a whole slew of
problems as they get up in miles. I've been about as good a Detroit
customer as anyone could expect, and I've had enough.
It sounds like a lot of others have a similar experience.
I want to buy American, but it's like beating my head with a
pipe wrench.

PhantomOG

So, buying an "American" car only means one where the auto manufacturer's headquaters is located in the US, but the factory can be in Mexico? And buying a "foreign" car consists of buying a car actually MADE in the USA but the headquarters is overseas so it doesn't count?

So buying "American" punishes the typical American worker but rewards the fat cat management that's responsible (along with the unions) for the demise of US automanufacturing?

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

The only real small trucks still made are the Nissan, Mazda and Ford Ranger.
And the Ranger is a re-badged Mazda.

Alright, this thread is FULL of inaccuracies and misinformation but one thing I'm not letting go is that the Ford Ranger is NOT, I repeat NOT a "rebadged Mazda". The Mazda B-series is a rebadged Ford Ranger.


How about most of you stop talking out of your asses and do some research on what you are going to mouth off about BEFORE posting? I know it's a stretch for most of you but, give it a try, honestly.

sucks2beme

Jstas wrote: »

Alright, this thread is FULL of inaccuracies and misinformation but one thing I'm not letting go is that the Ford Ranger is NOT, I repeat NOT a "rebadged Mazda". The Mazda B-series is a rebadged Ford Ranger.


How about most of you stop talking out of your asses and do some research on what you are going to mouth off about BEFORE posting? I know it's a stretch for most of you but, give it a try, honestly.

Ok. The modern Ranger started as a rebadged Mazda, and later swapped
in the mid 90's to being the other way around. And yes, i was talking out my
****. The Ranger is DEAD. What the hell were they thinking in dropping it?
Most of the European brands aren't any better or worse than US vehicles
in quality. They just have a more loyal fan base do to their "fun factor".
But if I didn't do my own car maintenance, Us cars would of killed me.
I had stuff that the dealership couldn't figure out, so I had to.
Not to mention the cost and two week wait time for the dealer to get to it.

ND13

PhantomOG wrote: »

So, buying an "American" car only means one where the auto manufacturer's headquaters is located in the US, but the factory can be in Mexico? And buying a "foreign" car consists of buying a car actually MADE in the USA but the headquarters is overseas so it doesn't count?

So buying "American" punishes the typical American worker but rewards the fat cat management that's responsible (along with the unions) for the demise of US automanufacturing?

Let's not forget unfair foreign trade agreements, NAFTA, and lobbyists.

Some of the most reliable autos I've owned were American made, some were Japanese(actually produced on the island, and one was a 1987 GTI. Some of the least reliable autos I've owned were American made, some were Japanese, and a couple were European. But for the most part, of the dozens of cars I've owned or drove as demos, the greater majority were quite reliable when properly maintained. Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones that's really never had a lemon or just realistic in what's really a reliability issue or nit-picking. After almost 20 years of working for auto dealerships of American, Japanese, British, Korean, Italian, and German brands, I've seen and heard just about everything and other than recalls(which the majority were voluntary) the worst were by far British and German, but even they weren't as ridiculous as some people make them out to be. Even "Consumer Reports" had Ford rated higher than Toyota in terms of reliability as of last year(determined by the entire model line-up). IIRC, Ford had a rating of 92% and Toyota had dropped below 90%. Before Daimler and Chrysler merged, Mercedes, of all manufacturers had the worst rating...MERCEDES BENZ. For the most part, during the 80's and early 90's, there was a reliability deficit, but by the mid 90's that deficit had closed dramatically. As far as the US brands not making small cars and such, they were giving the American public what they were demanding at the time. Like the saying goes.."Hindsight is 20/20". As fickle as we Americans can be, I'd wager that if there was a guarantee that gas prices were not to ever rise above...say $2.50-3.00, I'd bet those big **** SUVs/trucks/sedans would be all the rage once again. That's one of the advantages of living in, what I still believe to be the GREATEST NATION ON EARTH. If we weren't, then why are so many people, from every corner of the planet, doing whatever it takes(crazy ****, paying huge sums of $$, being indentured servants, leaving their families behind) just for the opportunity to live the American Dream? Part of which is owning that Caddy, Lincoln, Hummer, etc.

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

Ok. The modern Ranger started as a rebadged Mazda, and later swapped
in the mid 90's to being the other way around. And yes, i was talking out my
****. The Ranger is DEAD. What the hell were they thinking in dropping it?
Most of the European brands aren't any better or worse than US vehicles
in quality. They just have a more loyal fan base do to their "fun factor".
But if I didn't do my own car maintenance, Us cars would of killed me.
I had stuff that the dealership couldn't figure out, so I had to.
Not to mention the cost and two week wait time for the dealer to get to it.

NO, it didn't. The "modern Ranger" has been a Ford product since day one. Designed and built here in the U.S. From 1983 through present, the Ranger is an American designed and built product. Mazda has a B-series that is an international platform that is marketed as the Ford Ranger also but not in North America. Unless you live outside of North America, you will not encounter this platform. If you have a Ford Ranger or Mazda B-series in Canada, America and parts of Mexico, it is an American made vehicle. Outside of the U.S., it's Mazda designed and developed. You, sir, live in Texas, that's in North America. So kindly, shut your face and stop making things up.



For accuracy's sake. Ford started developing the Ranger in 1976 to replace the Ford Courier which was a Mazda B2000. In 1983, they released the Ford Ranger and it sold well. It was the most capable and best equipped and appointed small truck on the market. It was indestructible to boot too. Mazda's B-series started way back in 1961 and is still in production and used as Ford and Mazda's non-North American market small truck platform. Mazda sold the B-series international platform as the Mazda B2000, B2200, B2600 up until about 1997 I believe it was. Then in 1998, Mazda redesigned the B-series and began selling a mechanically identical vehicle to the Ford Ranger in North American markets while simultaneously marketing the B-series international platform through out the rest of the world as the Mazda B-series, Ford Ranger and Ford Courier (Australia only). Both the Ranger platform and the B-series platform are still available today and due to the recent economic and energy crisis happening, the once thought to be killed Ranger is now being looked at for an update since it is the most fuel efficient small truck on the market. The Ranger was due to be dropped by 2011 but now that number has changed and the Ranger might not go away at all.

ND13

Ford is to bring back the F-100, too. It will be powered by their new Eco-boost V-6, which is supposed to be rated at 300 hp in truck form and up to 400 hp when put in the new Stang. Got a glimpse of the new Stang on the last episode of "Knight Rider"...the red one being passed off as KITT. Looked pretty nice, imo. The show isn't any worse or better than the original. A really expensive Ford commercial, though. Which I have no issue with. Looks like anyone can buy time slots from the major networks these days.

sucks2beme

Ok. Looks like the internet has conflicting info. The Ranger is not dead
for 2009. http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/11/ford_rangers_an.html
I didn't make stuff up. I did a quick search. I don't live and breath
Blue oval. You're the big Ford fan. I used to be a GM guy.
Then Ford. Whatever. But the real point is people are buying according
past experience. And if it's bad, they go on to something else. And that
image can't be fixed overnight.

sucks2beme

Skipping over Ford trivia, unlike 95% of the people here, I have
two Ford products in the driveway. I have had nothing but
Detroit products for 26 years. I am not happy. That's a fact you can
bank on. Ac compressor at 32k. Computer at 15k. And that's the 2002.
The list goes on. Tell me I'm an idiot on Ford trivia, fine. I'm an idiot. A
flaming moron in fact. But how stupid do I have to be to buy another
Ford unless something big changes. If the whole Mazda/Ford thing is
all you got from that, then you missed the point. If the over 50
Detroit buying diehards are mad, who's left to buy American?
Take a deep breath and calm down. It's just the internet.

shack

sucks2beme wrote:

Skipping over Ford trivia, unlike 95% of the people here, I have
two Ford products in the driveway. I have had nothing but
Detroit products for 26 years. I am not happy. That's a fact you can
bank on. Ac compressor at 32k. Computer at 15k. And that's the 2002.
The list goes on. Tell me I'm an idiot on Ford trivia, fine. I'm an idiot. A
flaming moron in fact. But how stupid do I have to be to buy another
Ford unless something big changes. If the whole Mazda/Ford thing is
all you got from that, then you missed the point. If the over 50
Detroit buying diehards are mad, who's left to buy American?
Take a deep breath and calm down. It's just the internet.

I have a 1993 Mustang 5.0 LX that has seen limited use since I bought my Focus over 5 years ago as my daily driver. It had 185,000 mostly trouble free miles when I got the Focus. My Focus now has 110,000 + miles and I have only had two minor issues (a leaking clutch master cylinder at 90,000 miles and problem with the ignition locking mechanism at 80,000 miles) during that time. I have no problem with the dependability of my Ford products. I have a problem with Ford's business model and their inabilty to adjust with the quickly changing environment and the inabilty to have some foresight into the the "possible" issues and make some contengency plans.

sucks2beme

I've had good Ford products, too.
I'm talking the full size LTD. And of course older trunks.
The 5.0 was a good motor. The Focus and Cobalt from GM are
supposed to be good cars. But what about mid-size?
Big gaping hole. My current two FoMoCo products
are what really soured me. I'm one of thos guys that runs vehicles
for years. The Mountaineer has been babied by my wife. It's not
like I'm out beating on it. I want to buy domestic, damn it.
That's what JSTAS isn't getting. These two vehicles
sucked all the joy out of me.

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

Skipping over Ford trivia, unlike 95% of the people here, I have
two Ford products in the driveway. I have had nothing but
Detroit products for 26 years. I am not happy. That's a fact you can
bank on. Ac compressor at 32k. Computer at 15k. And that's the 2002.
The list goes on. Tell me I'm an idiot on Ford trivia, fine. I'm an idiot. A
flaming moron in fact. But how stupid do I have to be to buy another
Ford unless something big changes. If the whole Mazda/Ford thing is
all you got from that, then you missed the point. If the over 50
Detroit buying diehards are mad, who's left to buy American?
Take a deep breath and calm down. It's just the internet.

I don't care what your point was because like most of the posters in this thread, the accusations and commentary may have some merit but the spouting off about inaccuracies and then damning an entire car company over mis-information just proves to me how small minded and ignorant people really are. That, unfortunately, detracts from your credibility in my eyes. Beyond that, YOUR specific experiences amount to anecdotal evidence and if you've ever had a business statistics class, you would know how insignificant your stories are when compare with a population of tens of millions of Ford product owners. So save it. 'cause you know what? I have evidence that directly contradicts yours. So, in the end, it's a wash.

BTW, I have owned 7 Ford products all by myself in my 15 years of driving and my family as a whole has had roughly 30-35 products. Only 3 gave us major problems and those were exorcised from the fold. I currently own two Ford products and couldn't be happier with them. I've owned Japanese stuff too. Even Korean stuff. I had a Honda Accord, 92 vintage, hated the pile of crap. Was 10 years old and fell apart by the time it was 11. Had a 1990 Honda Civic and I learned about the asinine timing belt service the hard way. A car shouldn't eat it's timing gear at 60,000 miles. I also had 4 Hyundais. Two Accents, an Excel and a Sonata and they were, how should I put this, ****. I'm pleased with my Fords and I bought all of them except my Lightning from my uncle. All of my Fords, except my Lightning, were built here, in the U.S.A. by American workers, for an American company who sold them to me through an American salesman working at an American owned and operated dealership. They were all serviced by American mechanics too. The Lightning was assembled in Windsor, Canada by a mix of Canadian and American workers from parts manufactured in both America and Canada.

You know what? I'm not going to be a blind moron and ignore what is going on. But I'm also not going to rant on and on about how crappy American cars are. I read the car news, I'm in to it and I see what the American companies are doing with vehicles. I also see that there are American vehicles out there that people told the Big 3 they wanted to buy. But unlike those same people who cry quality and efficiency, I'm actually looking at what the Big 3 have to offer. I may be an idiot to most people here because of it but I think my next vehicle is going to be one of those "inferior products" 'cause I really like that new Flex from Ford. But, think I'm an idiot, it's ok, I don't care. Because I think that any **** that is going to artificially limit their choice in vehicle over reputations of cars that were sold before they were even legally allowed to drive is an even bigger idiot and you have no clue what you are missing out on. For the old people who were old enough to drive, put down the cane grandpa and get out of your rocking chair. There is more to this world than what once was. Obama is supposed to be the harbinger of change but that's not the only thing that's been changing.

dc55110

treitz3 wrote: »

You know, it's funny how the very same people who complain about or comment about having to send American dollars overseas to purchase oil wouldn't apparently hesitate to send American dollars overseas for a foreign vehicle.

Hmmmmm.......

American or Japanese these are all publicly traded companies! The profits go to the shareholders or are reinvested in capital expenditures. The foreign companies seem to be doing more investing in the US then the Big Three. Who are coincidentally making most of their capital investments abroad.

Next point...

While the salaries of some Union employees are just ridiculous the main problem the Big three has with labor is health care and pensions. Japanese companies don't have this problem, ie national health care and gov't guaranteed pensions.

treitz3 wrote: »

American cars inferior? HA!

I'd like to see any foreign truck do what my Chevy does. Fact is, I won't. 109,000 miles and still running strong, thank you.

Treitz3 - proud to drive an AMERICAN vehicle.

The construction company I work for last year switched from Chevy to Toyota. They had been a loyal Chevy company for well over a decade, but repair costs were getting astronomical. Now repair cost are down (yes it is still in the honeymoon phase) and after driving one for going on twenty months, I'm not going back (had to sell my Silverado 2500HD duramax after the turbo went out for the third time, couldn't afford to repair or drive it anymore). And may companies I work with have or are making the switch away from the domestic auto makers.



my2cents

PhantomOG

Jstas wrote: »

Because I think that any **** that is going to artificially limit their choice in vehicle over reputations of cars that were sold before they were even legally allowed to drive is an even bigger idiot and you have no clue what you are missing out on.

Its not the job of the consumer to convince themselves that something is good. If you want to manufacture and sell a product, a failure in the product itself or a failure to market it correctly, is still a failure and blaming the consumer doesn't help anyone.

Rightly earned or not, American cars have a reputation of being less reliable than foreign cars to alot of people. I don't know why the manufacturers have never directly addressed the issue. Maybe they think if they wait long enough it will just go away.

Jstas

PhantomOG wrote: »

Its not the job of the consumer to convince themselves that something is good.

I never said it was. But it is the job of the consumer to educate themselves and if the consumer deliberately says "I ain't gonna look at no GM, my granpaw said theys was junk so theys junk and I ain't lookin'!" then they aren't educating themselves.

All I'm saying is lose the 'tude and go LOOK for yourself and GET educated.