Want to try new IC's

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

You can't install your equipment on the floor or on low racks under your screen?

All my wiring runs were already terminated in the rack to the left of the room. So all the power, speaker cables, video cables, and wiring are cut to the right length and set up for that location.

Moving the equipment on the floor below the screen would require a 100' HDMI/component/VGA from the HTPC to the projector, relocation of source components, and the addition of a new 20A dedicated circuit for power. Not to mention going back into the crawl space to pull the rest of the cables out so I can use them for the new setup.

Serendipity

BTW, this is the thread in which I posted about the setup: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70062&highlight=finally

Face

Great advice Sal.

mmadden28

Some of this discussion makes me think of an analogy--It's like buying Corvette tires for your Gremlin and not experiencing any improvement, or like replacing the Gremlin with a Corvette (but keeping the Gremlin tires) again, no real improvement in road handling. Now replace both and end up with a Corvette and Corvette tires....well...
Yeah I know its a stretch.

mantis

I can sum up why and why not you would not hear any difference at all. As you claim.

You said you have 50 foot speaker cable runs. What kind of wire and what gauge is it? You should have 14-2 or 12-2 of good quality well built speaker wire. Beldon , Liberity , Audioquest even Monster will make a decent cable that will get the job done. This way this link is strong and you would be able to notice changes in your system clearer.
Quality of amp. When you have enough current to push your speakers correctly at the levels you wish to listen at, then a change in the system will be more noticeable.

So lets look at your system for a minute. You have a receiver , disc player and a pair of speakers. You trying to hear a difference in cables. So far you are not hearing differences. You may not notice any changes as you may not be able to. Cables are not night and day. Remember one thing, a cable has a job to do. It has to pass a signal from one place to another without picking up or leaving anything behind. Once this is achieved , no improvements can be made. Differences in the way a cable brings the signal can change, this is where some cables sound different. Some carry bass better then others, some get the highs out faster or more or it. Very little things change. Sometimes you can't even notice it at all. I know this as I have done these tests for years on many different systems.

Some cables sound exaclty the same. No difference what so ever. NONE. But then you drop in cable X vs Cable C and you notice something has changed.

So you can swap out cables, try this and that but if you system isn't improving to your taste, then maybe you need to change out components to your liking first. Chicken and the egg do play a part. You can't get away from that. Figuring out how to build a system is very difficult.

So if this is just I want to hear a difference in cables, you may or may not hear anything. You also tried 2 cd players and didn't hear anything. So maybe your ears are not as tuned I'll say os maybe others. Maybe your not actually listening. I'm not sure whats going on without being there with you and hearing what your hearing.

After all this mad, I got a question for you... What is the goal here? Proof wire makes a difference? Or are you on a quest to improve your system and get it to the next level? If it's improving the system, you have to be happy with it now in order to add better cables to tweak it to your liking. A cable will not change the entire sound of your system if nothing is wrong in the first place. A cable will not break the overall sound quality in a system if that cable or cables are designed to do there jobs they are being asked to do.

Talk to me, I can help.

Face

Lasareath wrote: »

Is this the GoldPoint that you have?

http://www.goldpt.com/sa4ht.html


How does the HT bypass work?, I mean can somebody draw me a diagram on how I would introduce one of these into my system?

Yes, that's the one I have. First one off the production line too.

Here's a quick image on how it's hooked up.

http://www.cleanandquiet.com/upload/store/Home%20Theater%20Bypass.JPG

Serendipity

Nice website.

Do you have a photography/graphics design business?

Face

appadv wrote: »

Nice website.

Do you have a photography/graphics design business?

No, my brother does. I just steal his bandwidth.

Serendipity

mantis wrote: »

After all this mad, I got a question for you... What is the goal here? Proof wire makes a difference? Or are you on a quest to improve your system and get it to the next level? If it's improving the system, you have to be happy with it now in order to add better cables to tweak it to your liking. A cable will not change the entire sound of your system if nothing is wrong in the first place. A cable will not break the overall sound quality in a system if that cable or cables are designed to do there jobs they are being asked to do.

Talk to me, I can help.

I doubt it has anything to do with my hearing.

As per why I am not hearing a difference, why do you think I am trying to prove cables do (or don't) make a difference? I'm looking for improvements in my system, not to argue whether or not cables make a difference!

Serendipity

mantis wrote: »

You said you have 50 foot speaker cable runs. What kind of wire and what gauge is it? You should have 14-2 or 12-2 of good quality well built speaker wire. Beldon , Liberity , Audioquest even Monster will make a decent cable that will get the job done. This way this link is strong and you would be able to notice changes in your system clearer.

I'm just using basic stranded 16-2 wire.

I have one question though - my Electrical Engineering lab professor allows us to use the oscilloscopes and test equipment for personal research. Would it be of any benefit for me to test a wire (electrically) before implementing it in my system?

McLoki

appadv wrote: »

I'm just using basic stranded 16-2 wire.

I have one question though - my Electrical Engineering lab professor allows us to use the oscilloscopes and test equipment for personal research. Would it be of any benefit for me to test a wire (electrically) before implementing it in my system?

How about testing it acoustically with your own ears to determine if it should stay in your system?

So you are trying to test a difference in a 1 meter interconnect with a 50' run of 16-2 wire between that and the speaker? I think you may have just found your issue.

I know you said you do not want to keep it this way, but just for a test, try to move your AVR between your front speakers and see if you can hear a difference between 50' of generic 16-2 cable and lets say 8 - 10 feet of decent cable. (like MIT terminator 2 or something - just borrow it if needed)

Serendipity

Actually, if I could find a 50' run of MIT Terminator 2 cable, it would be easier.

McLoki

appadv wrote: »

Actually, if I could find a 50' run of MIT Terminator 2 cable, it would be easier.

And probably cost about $2,000 - $3,000 used.....

Its a test - if you decide you like (or even hear) the difference, then worry about what is available in 50' runs....

For now - it is near zero cost just some time moving things around...

Face

McLoki wrote: »

And probably cost about $2,000 - $3,000 used.....

Its a test - if you decide you like (or even hear) the difference, then worry about what is available in 50' runs....

For now - it is near zero cost just some time moving things around...

I agree, I'm sure you have plenty of scrap speaker cable around.

McLoki

McLoki wrote: »

it is near zero cost just some time moving things around...

In case you have no idea what I am talking about - get yourself on the list....

Michael

Serendipity

McLoki wrote: »

And probably cost about $2,000 - $3,000 used.....

Its a test - if you decide you like (or even hear) the difference, then worry about what is available in 50' runs....

For now - it is near zero cost just some time moving things around...

It's going to be a *lot* of time moving things around. But I don't mind.

Just to let you know, my 20A dedicated circuit is in the meter room/wiring closet. So I'd need a long extension cord to get to the front of the room. Then move the HTPC and CDP next to the receiver, and find a long HDMI cable to the projector. Thats the minimum required to test things out, as a lot of my music is on the HTPC and the OSD is thru the projector - to pick songs, etc.

ben62670

appadv wrote: »

I'm just using basic stranded 16-2 wire.

I have one question though - my Electrical Engineering lab professor allows us to use the oscilloscopes and test equipment for personal research. Would it be of any benefit for me to test a wire (electrically) before implementing it in my system?

Houston I think we have a problem here. No wonder you can't hear a difference in IC's:eek:
Some engineers should stick to driving trains:rolleyes: Too many(not all) in the science world under estimate the human mind/body. Many think they have all the answers, and as history has shown over and over again they do a fine job of proving themselves wrong.
Ben

Serendipity

If two wires are electrically the same on an oscilloscope, would they sound different?

McLoki

appadv wrote: »

It's going to be a *lot* of time moving things around. But I don't mind.

Just to let you know, my 20A dedicated circuit is in the meter room/wiring closet. So I'd need a long extension cord to get to the front of the room. Then move the HTPC and CDP next to the receiver, and find a long HDMI cable to the projector. Thats the minimum required to test things out, as a lot of my music is on the HTPC and the OSD is thru the projector - to pick songs, etc.

Extension cord - reciever - CDP. That is really all you need. If you HAVE to use the HTPC, just move an extra computer monitor to the front so you can select what you want.

This is a test, not a room redesign.

Michael

McLoki

appadv wrote: »

If two wires are electrically the same on an oscilloscope, would they sound different?

No way to guarantee it, but yes they could....

Serendipity

I didn't know that. I just want to find out for myself.

mmadden28

appadv wrote: »

If two wires are electrically the same on an oscilloscope, would they sound different?

I would imagine, esp depending on the length, that you would have to use a steady sine to be able to see a difference. And even if you did see a difference that may or may not translate into an audible difference.

However audio in use is not a steady sine and that the varying frequencies and amplitudes will behave differently on different cables depedning on thier contruction and quality and materials used. Such things that I would expect to have an impact might be the capacitance and resistances of the cable. This is why I think some people say some cables are better for low freqs and and some are better for high freqs.

McLoki

Music on the HTPC - is it FLAC or MP3? (and no - I don't care what the bit rate is). Just to be safe - stick with the CDP for now. What brand CDP and AVR again?

Serendipity

I find it interesting that Ben thinks engineers only use science - I said I was going to test the cables out on an oscilloscope AND put them in my system to see if they make a difference.

Serendipity

McLoki wrote: »

Music on the HTPC - is it FLAC or MP3? (and no - I don't care what the bit rate is). Just to be safe - stick with the CDP for now. What brand CDP and AVR again?

Music on the HTPC is MP3 from purchased CDs.
The AVR and CDP are the Onkyo's in my sig.

Face

To steal someone else's quote...

Piss poor planning leads to piss poor performance.


You're listening to MP3's through a receiver then through 100 feet of speaker cable. I wouldn't expect to hear a difference from cables either.

Grab a CDP, your receiver, and a couple short leads of speaker cables and place everything between your speakers. Even using radio shack interconnects, it should sound better.

Serendipity

Isn't Trey doing the same with his Zune? I thought he had the Zune's output fed through his system via a 3.5mm headphone cable...

mmadden28

appadv wrote: »

I find it interesting that Ben thinks engineers only use science - I said I was going to test the cables out on an oscilloscope AND put them in my system to see if they make a difference.

I haven't finished learning how to use Remote EQ Wizard (REW), but I plan to set it up to plot a graph of my system, then I'll replace something-an IC, a speaker cable, or a power cord, and rerun the REW and see if it makes a difference--I'll do it with all the cables I recenlty bought---It might show a difference-it might not, but if the chart changes and I don't hear it, at least I'll know its just me but that a change did or did not happen. I seem to have a hard time distinguishing small changes as well, but I haven't given up yet.
That's probably the closest way I can get to some kind of non-subjective measurement.

What is the term for non-subective? Objective? Or what, the term escapes me.

Serendipity

I have a lot of CDs too. When played back in the HTPC, the sound is nearly identical. However, the ripped MP3s don't sound as good as the original CDs being played in the HTPC or the Onkyo. So I am hearing a difference with regards to that.

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

Grab a CDP, your receiver, and a couple short leads of speaker cables and place everything between your speakers. Even using radio shack interconnects, it should sound better.

So how do the setups like what you see in Home Theater Magazine do it? They must have 100+ feet of speaker wire since the equipment rack is ALWAYS in another room, closet, or mounted somewhere out of sight.