Want to try new IC's

Face

appadv wrote: »

Yeah, I should.

When I did a gear swap at a Polkie get together (with Ben's IC's and other high-end cables in the system), changing sources didn't make much of a difference, though.

I'll send Sal a PM directing him to this thread so we can find out what gear and changes were involved.

appadv wrote: »

Onkyo 702, then Definitive BP10B.

This is odd - I should be able to hear small changes in the sound, as I was a concert pianist for years, competed all over, and even won the Carnegie Hall Young Artists' Showcase piano competition - and performed there.

So its definitely not my hearing.

Wasn't Beethoven deaf?

As I pointed out the other day, the room also has a lot to do with it. I recently set up a rig in another room and found that changes that would very noticeable in my other room, were very subtle in the new room due to it's poor acoustics. Just something else to consider.

Serendipity

You know what gear and changes were involved. We just switched CDP's.

Face

I'm not sure if we only compared transports or players as a whole.

Also, how long are the cable runs to your mains?

Face

Lasareath wrote: »

As per Ben Silver cables not making a difference, we used Optical because we were comparing Red Book CDs. So the the only difference was the players because my Onkyo Receiver was acting as the A/D converter.

Thanks for clearing this up.

My Onkyo is the next thing I am changing, I think I want one of these: http://sunfire.com/TGP401.htm

Sal

Sal, I would get a HT receiver that decodes the newer formats and a 2 channel pre with HT bypass for music listening for the best of both worlds. IMO, that's a lot to spend on a processor that's already out of date.

Face

Lasareath wrote: »

What would you recommend?

For HT, I like Onkyo receivers such as the 706-806, they process all the new formats, are easy to set up and use.

For a 2 channel pre with HT bypass, I'm using a passive unit from Goldpoint. It doesn't add any gain, but doesn't add any distortion or coloration either. There's no remote either, so it's not for armchair audiophiles.

There's lots of choices out there depending on what you want, tubes, ss, phono section, etc... I believe Musical Fidelity used to sell a pre w/ HT bypass, there's also Rogue, Cary, Krell... Here is a thread with some other brands: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45882

reeltrouble1

your equipment does not have adequate bandwith, power, or signal path for it to matter much what cable you use, enjoy what you have and dont worry about it, if you like it is all that matters, these cables provide subtle differences despite what you may have read, you are finding a cable with synergy for your gear, it's pretty much an esoteric thing, if you just have to buy some cables then I would get some Signal they will hold you for a long time.

RT1

reeltrouble1

Sal,

George Daniels has an excellent Dodd MLP with a by-pass for sale, it is a hell of deal and sounds outstanding, I know cuz it was once mine.

RT1

heiney9

At our recent Rockford get together last Saturday we demoed 3 sources and 2 sets of cables.

Toshiba 3960 dvdp modded by Madmax
Rotel RCD 1072 cdp
Adcom GDA 600 digital to analog converter
Ben's Silver I/C's
MIT Terminator 2 I/C's
MIT Terminator 2 Speak cables
Canare 4S11 Speak cables

Every combo had a different flavor. They were pretty distinct differences using the exact same demo track. Look here for a more indepth discussion.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74450

My point is try as much stuff as you can to see what you like. As a musician you should be able to hear a difference. However I have a good friend who is a very talented musician and it seems their brains are wired differently when it comes to music. When we demo music and gear he seems to process the information and look for other things than I do in a song. He has more appreciation for the construction of the melody than for listening for differences in sound, like attack, decay, stage width or height, vocal timbre, etc.......................does that make any sense.............get what I'm trying to say.

Serendipity

Lasareath wrote: »

Your equipment is crap. Time to upgrade to some higher grade components.

So, let me get this straight - you need to have better components to hear the effects of high-end cable, yet once you upgrade your components you need better cable to hear the changes brought upon by the new gear?

Sounds like a case of "which came first - the chicken or the egg"...

Because when I compared a $20 DVD player vs. my Onkyo, I couldn't hear a difference. Does that mean: (a) the rest of my gear sucks (b) I need to buy better cables (c) once I buy better cables I'll need to buy better gear because you can't hear the improvements brought upon by the cables without having better gear?

Confused

Face

You're always going to have a weak link, we all do.

The better your gear, the better you'll be able to hear a difference between cables.

The better your cables, the better you'll be able to hear a difference between gear.

If you're happy with the way your rig sounds, leave it be. As I've told you a few times before, if you want to add more detail, give Ben's cables a try. They're a great value.

Keep in mind, just because a cable costs more, doesn't always mean it will sound better.

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

You're always going to have a weak link, we all do.

The better your gear, the better you'll be able to hear a difference between cables.

The better your cables, the better you'll be able to hear a difference between gear.

If you're happy with the way your rig sounds, leave it be. As I've told you a few times before, if you want to add more detail, give Ben's cables a try. They're a great value.

Keep in mind, just because a cable costs more, doesn't always mean it will sound better.

Based on your logic, that would be an endless loop?

Serendipity

So from what I understand reading the posts in this thread:

1. To hear the difference made by better cables, you need to have better gear.
2. However, once you have better gear, the better you'll be able to hear a difference between cables.
3. Then the better your cables, the better you'll be able to hear the difference between good and bad gear.

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

tcrossma

It's an endless loop until you find something you're happy with. Just because you CAN upgrade doesn't mean you HAVE to. Symmetry between your components and cables is the key -- get either much higher or lower quality than the other and you're going to notice it.

Serendipity

The problem I have is that based upon the posts in this thread (if I am reading them correctly), is that the reason why I'm NOT hearing a difference between cables is because my gear sucks.

And then it becomes an endless loop "which came first - the chicken or the egg?"

tcrossma

Unless you upgrade both your cables and equipment at the same time then yes, one of them has to come first. But I'm not sure I see this as an endless loop...

Serendipity

I mean, let's say I go out and buy a nice high-end CDP. I don't hear a difference and post my results on this forum. Someone responds and says that my cables suck and that's why I'm not hearing a difference.

I go and upgrade my cables and then post that I can't really tell the difference. Then someone says "Your equipment is crap."

Face

appadv wrote: »

The problem I have is that based upon the posts in this thread (if I am reading them correctly), is that the reason why I'm NOT hearing a difference between cables is because my gear sucks.

And then it becomes an endless loop "which came first - the chicken or the egg?"

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself and say your gear sucks. Sal is just jealous that your CDP sounded better than his, that's all.

With your rig as is, you should hear a difference with Ben's. With my highly coloured vintage gear I was able to hear a difference, so you should too. Since you've asked me this in person a few times and now asking it on here, if you ask again you're getting a weggie next time I see you.

Serendipity

I've talked to Ben and my rig is already bright. He said his cables wouldn't work well in my system if it's already bright.

I'm actually looking for a warmer sound.

Face

appadv wrote: »

I've talked to Ben and my rig is already bright. He said his cables wouldn't work well in my system if it's already bright.

Why didn't you say that earlier?

If your deftechs sound bright, I would work on room treatments before anything else.

Serendipity

As you have seen pictures of my room before, I've since added a carpet and that made a slight difference in the sound.

My other issue is, shouldn't cable changes be apparent on all gear? I mean, saying that you can't hear a difference because your gear is crap doesn't have much validity to me.

It's like walking into an audio store, salesman sells me a set of high-end cables and I try them out. When I go back and say they didn't make a difference, he tries to sell me better gear so that I can "hear" the difference made by the cables.

I'm not buying that...

tcrossma

appadv wrote: »

As you have seen pictures of my room before, I've since added a carpet and that made a slight difference in the sound.

My other issue is, shouldn't cable changes be apparent on all gear? I mean, saying that you can't hear a difference because your gear is crap doesn't have much validity to me.

It's like walking into an audio store, salesman sells me a set of high-end cables and I try them out. When I go back and say they didn't make a difference, he tries to sell me better gear so that I can "hear" the difference made by the cables.

I'm not buying that...

If you don't want to believe in there being a difference in speaker cables, that's your right -- and one shared by many. But in my opinion, no, what you're saying is not the case.

If you put a high-end CDP on computer speakers, you're not going to hear a difference. If you put high-end cables on a low-end rig, you're probably not going to notice any difference. To me it's about matching the relative quality of all your gear and upgrading any weak links.

Serendipity

I never said there is no difference between cables. However, based on what I've tried so far, I haven't heard a difference *yet*.

ben62670

appadv wrote: »

...
My other issue is, shouldn't cable changes be apparent on all gear? I mean, saying that you can't hear a difference because your gear is crap doesn't have much validity to me.


I'm not buying that...

Nope. Synergy is a is a ****.

Serendipity

tcrossma wrote: »

If you put high-end cables on a low-end rig, you're probably not going to notice any difference. To me it's about matching the relative quality of all your gear and upgrading any weak links.

So I have a low-end rig then?

tcrossma

appadv wrote: »

So I have a low-end rig then?

I didn't say that. I was commenting more on your insistence that it was an endless loop, and then to your question as to whether cable changes should be apparent on all gear.

Serendipity

Ah, I understand

Funny thing is, Trey (previous owner of my DefTechs) said that cables made a difference. Back then he had components of similar caliber and he heard a difference swapping cables.

McLoki

I tried to mention it before - but spend your money upgrading the weakest link in your system, whatever that may be.....

Think of it as a computer upgrade.

If you have a pentium 1000 with 512 meg of ram, a basic PCI video card and 500meg hard drive.

You want to play a new game and want to upgrade where do you start? (and no, my first recommendation of get a new computer is not an option)

What one piece can you upgrade to get the biggest bang for your buck? Once you do - what is your next weakest link?

As I said before - you have source, interconnects, AVR, speaker wire, speakers and room interaction. All of these can impact the sound - in your system (just like in every system) one is having more of a negative impact than the rest. When it gets cleared up - your system will sound much better and something else will move to the weakest link spot in your system.

The more revieling your system becomes, the more impact you will be able to hear from other changes. From what little I know about Def Tech speakers - they seem to be very room and placement dependent. Personally I would start there and worry about cables at a later date.

In other systems they may upgrade their cables and if cables are one of the weaker links in their system - they may have a huge impact from doing so. That does not translate to "that cable (or any cable) will be a fantastic upgrade for every system" though.

heiney9

appadv wrote: »

I've talked to Ben and my rig is already bright. He said his cables wouldn't work well in my system if it's already bright.

I'm actually looking for a warmer sound.

I would beg to differ even though they are Ben's cables. I have his speaker cables and we just did a mini-shoot out with his Silver I/C's. Didn't find them bright at all. Again synergy, gear and YMMV

H9

Serendipity

I think I have found my weakest link. The fact is, I need 50ft. of speaker cable to get from my AVR to the Definitives since I'm running a front projection setup. And it is very difficult to find 100ft (50X2) of high-end speaker cable.

If I had a TV, I could place all the components under the TV stand and run just 12ft. of speaker cable. However, being that I have a *huge* front projection screen, the only options are to place the gear in:
(a) another room
(b) a closet
(c) off to the side.

Either way, between the AVR and Definitives, there is just too much distance to make a short run possible.

Face

You can't install your equipment on the floor or on low racks under your screen?