Eavesdropping Through Cell Phones
Comments
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MRBIGBLUELIGHT
That was one excellent post.
A+ -
First time browsing to this thread today, apparently I missed a lot.
First and foremost, the "War on Terror" and the Iraq War is by no means enough to justify Martial law, which isn't even explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Furthermore, the only time it has been used on a national level was during "The" Civil War. The set of circumstances surrounding its enacting were of far greater magnitude than those that surround us today. Martial law has NOT been declared nor will it be. Thus, any powers attributed to special case do not apply.
As for the argument on personal values, that's a red herring if I've ever seen one. The question here is not whether or not Steve agrees with Unions, something that is no way analogous to warrant-less wiretapping (which this topic has steered), but rather the question of should said wiretapping be allowed. Majority of the world doesn't vote straight ticket one way or another so the questioning of differing political views on irrelevant topics is fairly useless.You're determining in one case that a loss of someone's "freedoms" are acceptable, but in another case it's an absolute atrocity and abomination, despite the fact no "freedoms" are being lost, and you're quoting Benjamin Franklin to make your point.
I think what Steve is arguing is that the loss of privacy is a loss of a freedom, in which case I do agree.
Stalin showed us very clearly what happens when privacy and paranoia against the state aren't properly checked.Lovin that music year after year.
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MRBIGBLUELIGHT
That was one excellent post.
A+
Agree 100%
Good luck selling it to the "world citizens" on this board...Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Referer: My point was actually this: He was saying that he agreed with Franklin. Union workers actively give up their freedom for a little more security etc... To me, it seems exceedingly hypocritical.
MBBL: It doesn't matter what the Justice said, and that's the point of martial law, it removes the Judicial branch from power and transfers it back only by order of Congress or discretion of the executive branch. What's interesting is the constitution gave him the power to enact the suspension and declare martial law, so how is it an attack on the constitution to do something the constitution allows him to do?There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Referer: My point was actually this: He was saying that he agreed with Franklin. Union workers actively give up their freedom for a little more security etc... To me, it seems exceedingly hypocritical.
MBBL: It doesn't matter what the Justice said, and that's the point of martial law, it removes the Judicial branch from power and transfers it back only by order of Congress or discretion of the executive branch. What's interesting is the constitution gave him the power to enact the suspension and declare martial law, so how is it an attack on the constitution to do something the constitution allows him to do?
Spot on. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to bother repeating myself. The lines of logic weren't running parallel to one another on two extremely similar topics. -
Don't know how exactly Unions got into this discussion on the bill of rights but just for giggles.....
JD- What freedoms does a union employee give up? He is free to leave that union at any time he wishes.Free to negotiate a higher salary than what is promised by a union contract.What freedoms are lost??
Demi-What freedom have you lost as a buisness owner? Were you not free to sign a union contract?Did some one strong arm you into it? Doubt it.
Zappa-man,take off the tin foil hat dude.I understand your concern though,and most people do.Coin toss on the whole wire tapping thing,but I am sure,down the line,some form of legislation will be drafted to allow such a thing in the future.HT SYSTEM-
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lsi 9's -
Referer: My point was actually this: He was saying that he agreed with Franklin. Union workers actively give up their freedom for a little more security etc... To me, it seems exceedingly hypocritical.
You don't need to join a Union. That's a person's choice. Should wiretaps become legal without a warrant, however, no one would have a choice.Lovin that music year after year.
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Maybe I am naive but I believe the government has no interest in listening to my conversations about riding my bike or posting on a silly thread at "polk audio"
However I hope they are interested in the conversatios of terrorists and people posting on boy toucher threads.
So in my opinion you are not defending my rights but you are defending the rights of terrorists and boy touchers.
Maybe my view is too simplistic, but I really don't understand the paranoia. -
Maybe I am naive but I believe the government has no interest in listening to my conversations about riding my bike or posting on a silly thread at "polk audio"
However I hope they are interested in the conversatios of terrorists and people posting on boy toucher threads.
So in my opinion you are not defending my rights but you are defending the rights of terrorists and boy touchers.
Maybe my view is too simplistic, but I really don't understand the paranoia.
The issue is the unchecked nature of it: the government could just as easily use it to tap the phones of the opposite political party and find out the strategies they plan to use in an upcoming election. It treads a little too closely to openly defying the 4th amendment.
We all want to catch terrorists and "boy touchers", but why do we need to allow warrantless wireless taps to do it? Judges tend to be pretty lenient on permitting warrants when there is evidence to suggest that an individual has something to do with it. Allowing free, unchecked reign to tap anyone's phone line without any oversight and no requirement to disseminate it to anyone gives too much possibility of abuse.
It's not so much paranoia that the party in power might use it to secure position as an examination of history: it has happened several, several times in the history of this nation, and will continue to happen. I'm just not willing to make it that much easier for them.
It changes the whole concept of "Innocent until Guilty" and sets a dangerous precedent for future laws concerning the security of our rights.Lovin that music year after year.
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Wow, I didn't realize that the government had become so insidious. Next thing you know, they'll be ******* posts made by private ****** on public message ******.
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From what I gather so far,they are not asking to tap phones when ever they please or on who ever. I believe they want to tap calls originating from overseas only.Far cry from the tapping of your soccer moms calls.Seems to me alot of donations are made to congress from.....overseas.Now I see why they are against it,after all,those donations aren't for nothing.HT SYSTEM-
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lsi 9's -
Law enforcement has had access to your conversations, via court order, since I've been in commercial telecom(1996). In the analog days, in 2 minutes you could modify a bag phone and drive around all day....listening to conversations.
Every cellular/wireless switch has a rack dedicated and maintained by LE but they DO NOT have walk-in access to ANY facility when they feel like it. This is a multi-tiered access request that begins with the home office so there are control measures involved.
The average entry by a LE enforcment individual to our switch, in a given 6 month period, is quite rare.
I'll be dead before any of this really matters, so I could care less what the future brings.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Well, I hope they didn't hear me swapping lasagna recipes with my sister..that'd be down right embarassing.
Now I know why Mom covered hers with tin foil...to keep the aliens from extracting the ingredients while it was cooking!!!!!!!!!!!
...are we really free to live as we wish?.... -
I still don't understand what the problem is with law enforcement trying to 'protect & serve'. The LEFT make it sound like we're turning into N. Korea????
When THEY take away the 2nd amendment, then I'll be REALLY nervous.I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE! -
I still don't understand what the problem is with law enforcement trying to 'protect & serve'. The LEFT make it sound like we're turning into N. Korea????
Why do you have issues in requiring judicial oversight?Lovin that music year after year.
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I chuckle......or throw up a little.....when people say things like "the left is abusing things" but they somehow go beyond ignorant when the right is flaunting it in everyones faces and trying to make past illegal actions legal........comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
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Left, right, whogizzaschitt? They're all corrupt. Haves versus havenots is closer to the truth...
"Let them eat cake." -
Zappa-man,take off the tin foil hat dude.I understand your concern though,and most people do..
Not sure what tin foil hat means?
Can you explain? -
Thank you Mark. It's nice to see some rational facts in this crazy discussion!:)Law enforcement has had access to your conversations, via court order, since I've been in commercial telecom(1996). In the analog days, in 2 minutes you could modify a bag phone and drive around all day....listening to conversations.
Every cellular/wireless switch has a rack dedicated and maintained by LE but they DO NOT have walk-in access to ANY facility when they feel like it. This is a multi-tiered access request that begins with the home office so there are control measures involved.
The average entry by a LE enforcment individual to our switch, in a given 6 month period, is quite rare.
I'll be dead before any of this really matters, so I could care less what the future brings.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Spot on. Thanks for posting so I didn't have to bother repeating myself. The lines of logic weren't running parallel to one another on two extremely similar topics.
Explain the parallel to pro gun ownership, NRA life member, staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment, but yet eavesdropping without a warrant is "OK?"
You don't trade freedom for security, period. I personally don't care how you feel about my opinion. I'll voice and vote my view. For those of you who feel this is acceptable, be as matter-of-fact and complacent as you want to be, believing this is no big deal, and I'll measure the importance of issues with my own values/beliefs. Though I may disagree with you, I respect your right to an opinion on the subject. Isn't America wonderful that way?
BTW, for those of you who don't know, I'm also an NRA member and full supporter of the 2nd amendment as well, and have been for 24 years.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
The constitution is "just a piece of paper" to quote one of our illustrious leaders.
WRONG
The constitution is what makes America America.
It is what makes freedom and liberty possible. It is not to be taken lightly or for granted.
The people who wrote it and signed it did so with full knowledge that their actions would be viewed as "Revolutionary", and in so doing could cause harm to them and their families.
Bottom line: Early Americans had much bigger balls that the current variety of complacent, self serving, indifferent, whining wannabe Americans we have become.
-Luc -
Explain the parallel to pro gun ownership, NRA life member, staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment, but yet eavesdropping without a warrant is "OK?"
You don't trade freedom for security, period. I personally don't care how you feel about my opinion. I'll voice and vote my view. For those of you who feel this is acceptable, be as matter-of-fact and complacent as you want to be, believing this is no big deal, and I'll measure the importance of issues with my own values/beliefs. Though I may disagree with you, I respect your right to an opinion on the subject. Isn't America wonderful that way?
BTW, for those of you who don't know, I'm also an NRA member and full supporter of the 2nd amendment as well, and have been for 24 years.
You posted the quote Steve, not me. That's where you got called out on the carpet. I have nothing to explain as I don't make blanket claims that apply to one thing and not another.
Oh, and:bobman1235 wrote: »Funny how in the FUD video, they fail to mention that a wiretapping warrant was obtained for the eavesdropping. It's not like this is a case of spying on normal citizens. This isn't Patriot Act stuff. This is the feds getting a legal warrant to bug someone's phone and using technology to make said warrant more fruitful.
Have a nice evening.
