Speaker wire does make a difference

steveinaz

The cables' topology is probably as important as the materials used--this is often over-looked.

Road Runner

maximillian wrote: »

anti-cat coating.

That's the most important of all. It contains a special substance called anti-cat nip designed to repel even the most enthusiastic of cats.

Deadof_knight

There is differences and anybody can tell sometime only very sublte but other times its drastic.

mule

Deadof_knight wrote: »

There is differences and anybody can tell sometime only very sublte but other times its drastic.

I am not trying to dispute if there is a difference, just curious as to why there would be a difference.

Hell I can't even hear the beeper tell me when the laundry is done unless I am within 10 feet of it, yet my girlfriend can hear it at the other end of the house.


Steveinaz, what do you meen by "topology"?

Face

If you want to try a cable that has a different sound to it.

http://www.goertzaudio.com/mi.html

They have a low impedance, to match your speaker's impedance. Make sure you have a high current amp though, a receiver or tube amp may not fair well with this cable.

I run the AG2's in my 2 channel setup. IMO, they have great highs and lows, but aren't to be paired with a bright sounding speaker. For a warmer sound, try the copper HT Flatwire or MI cables.

dragon1952

shack wrote: »

Dragon,

It's all in your head...you have fooled yourself AGAIN into believing all of the audio cable VOODOO! You are a sheeple who has bought into the hype. SHAME ON YOU!

I am of course willing to help you fight through this serious affliction. I can get you back on the path of sanity and reason.

First...you must send me those Midnights. You have my address. I will see that they are disposed of. After that we can get you back on the road to recovery. I’m here for you.

What a guy!

steveinaz wrote: »

The cables' topology is probably as important as the materials used--this is often over-looked.

This is so true.

janmike wrote: »

Synergy.

Also very true.

FWIW, this was not a move to a more expensive wire, or even something new, so there's no psychology involved. I think I paid about $1 a foot for the Canare and I got the Audioquest used and unterminated (and cheap) from a fellow Polkie. Both have been sitting around the house for a couple of years and have been in and out of the system. There are some obvious differences. The Audioquest is a larger gauge and has a ton more dielectric material. I'm sure this has something to do with it. In other words, I am not just comparing two hunks of copper.
The Canare always seemed a little 'tizzy'. The Audioquest has clarity. The Canare seemed to separate instruments better but they sounded dis-jointed I guess. The Audioquest doesn't throw out as large of a soundstage but everything sounds more coherent, together, musical, toe-tapping...not dis-jointed and tizzy. The Canare didn't sound nearly as bad on some recordings. I can't really explain what's going on. My wire lengths are only around 7 ft, I'm using relatively high-efficiency 8 ohm speakers and a good 50wpc tube amp that's good down below 4 ohms. At that wire length, supposedly there shouldn't be a difference, but there obviously is.
When I said people who demand that there is no difference are uninformed it wasn't meant as an insult anymore than them telling me it's in my head. I fail to see the difference. :rolleyes: That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :cool:

jakelm

My reality is reality.

Sami

Zero wrote: »

I hope this helps! Good luck, and have fun!

You are pretty much saying that the diameter of the cable is what matters. Purity of the copper has very little to contribute to the overall resistance of the cable so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

jakelm

To go solid or not.

I have heard and read many different reviews on both sides of the fence about solids. I have taken the advise, of some peers here, and went solid copper core RG59 coaxial. But I notice that in terms of "speaker" wire, stranded is best.

Confusing..... IC's work better with solid core copper, but speaker wire works best with stranded copper? Of corse if going stranded, it should be the same solid copper as a solid core?

Sami

Zero wrote: »

Sami,

Honestly, I don't understand how you got "purity of copper has little to contribute" out of the above post. I said the exact opposite. And yes - diameter certainly plays its role as well.

Not from your post but as the defining characteristic is resistance on cable, purity doesn't contribute as it affects the resistance very little. Unless we are talking about something that really isn't copper anymore (which isn't really relevant as the stuff you buy isn't that dirty). If purity is something you are concerned of, just buy larger diameter cable and the problem is solved.

mule

Thanks zero, for the relatively simple explanation. Like sami I thought a larger "dirty" conductor would do the same job as a smaller "clean" conductor. After reading the definition of "inductance" It seems in simple terms that the electrons in a clean condutor have a more direct path and be better responsive to current changes.

AAAhhhh, something just occured to me, this would be why bi amping speakers and setting crossover frequencies at the amp would produce better sound. The wire would have less frequency change and thus less inductance ??!!

Sami

mule wrote: »

Thanks zero, for the relatively simple explanation. Like sami I thought a larger "dirty" conductor would do the same job as a smaller "clean" conductor. After reading the definition of "inductance" It seems in simple terms that the electrons in a clean condutor have a more direct path and be better responsive to current changes.

Inductance only affect the sound with long speaker cables, and only in higher frequencies. Even then its not audible as the human ear can't detect the difference.

Face

Sami wrote: »

Inductance only affect the sound with long speaker cables, and only in higher frequencies. Even then its not audible as the human ear can't detect the difference.

This is correct.

jakelm

The beautiful laws of physics..

Sami

Zero wrote: »

You're not going to magically improve the purity of a metal simply by increasing the diameter of a lesser conductor.

You don't have to improve the purity. Impurity effects the resistance on the cable, only by a marginal amount, and by increasing the diameter you lessen the resistance. Simple.

Zero wrote: »

You say its not audible. I disagree.

Well, how much of a difference is there going to be in two decent audio cables at 10kHz or 16kHz? How well can you hear that difference? Put in some test tones at those frequencies and test how much of volume you have to increase to distinguish the difference. Be careful not to damage the speaker though...and of course make it a double blind test.

Repeat with a cable that you know doesn't sound as good and record the results.

Zero wrote: »

"I respect your right to be wrong". :D

Yes, I respect the fact that you're wrong. (sorry, couldn't resist, these aren't fighting words at all, I'm just killing time waiting for A-GPS test to execute)

mule

I would say that I could probably not hear the difference, especialy since most music I listen to is mp3 or wma and half of that was probably made in a basement with a computer and samples of old vinyl.

Its just that if someone says somethings better I like to know why its better. I can now understand why its better even if I can't hear that it is better.

treitz3

The higher the resolution of one's format recording, synergy and gear, the more apt one is to hear a change in the sound.

Yashu

Everything makes a difference.

Monster Jam

dragon1952 wrote: »

I've proven to myself yet again. I had some Audioquest Midnight speaker cable in my system for a couple years. This wire is so stiff and hard to work with it's basically not worth hassling with. When I moved into the new house I decided I wasn't going to screw with it anymore so I used some Canare Star Quad I had laying around. Well I haven't been real happy with the system lately. I gave it a good 2 months and I finally decided to try the Midnight again. It took me a freakin' hour to change the bananas. It's like wrestling an anaconda for crying out loud. I stabbed myself with the screwdriver several times, lost a lot of blood and muttered lots of nasty things under my breath, but wow what a change. Anybody that says speaker cable can't make a difference is seriously uninformed. I don't know...maybe it's just the blood loss affecting me. :rolleyes:

I was of the opinion that, for the most part, speaker cable and interconnects are way way over-rated. That goes for other cables and power conditioners as well.

That said, dragon's first hand experience is the first testomony to speaker cable I've read and agree with. Now dragon didn't state that the speaker cable sounded better, just that the old cable was a total pain in the **** to handle. Can't argue that!

ben62670

jakelm wrote: »

To go solid or not.

I have heard and read many different reviews on both sides of the fence about solids. I have taken the advise, of some peers here, and went solid copper core RG59 coaxial. But I notice that in terms of "speaker" wire, stranded is best.

Confusing..... IC's work better with solid core copper, but speaker wire works best with stranded copper? Of corse if going stranded, it should be the same solid copper as a solid core?

Hey Jake
I like solid on speaker wires too. I have AQ star Quads with 4 solid conductors. They work great. I use them on the lows of my speakers, and I use my silvers on the highs. I have both the DBS, and none DBS versions of the AQ star quads. The DBS is definitely better. Not worth over twice the price, but better. And yes I laughed at the though of having batteries on my cables. Then I tried them.

dragon1952

Monster Jam wrote: »

..... Now dragon didn't state that the speaker cable sounded better, just that the old cable was a total pain in the **** to handle. Can't argue that!

I actually did state that the Audioquest Midnight was much better sounding in my system, even though it's a royal pain in the **** to work with. In other words, the old cable that was a total pain in the **** is now the new cable

mrbigbluelight

One word:

Waveguide.




:rolleyes:

Monster Jam

dragon1952 wrote: »

I actually did state that the Audioquest Midnight was much better sounding in my system, even though it's a royal pain in the **** to work with. In other words, the old cable that was a total pain in the **** is now the new cable

....yet again!!!!:p

dragon1952

At least someone's paying attention :rolleyes:

candyliquor35m

I'm happy with romex which doesn't move once you get it bent (sculpted) just right. I don't have the urge to try anything else unless someone is donating something or starting up a new cable swap thread.

mmadden28

Zero wrote: »

...The only time I would ever discourage anyone from conducting these tests is if the bulk of your system can be purchased at Circuit City or Best Buy. I encourage anyone to graduate beyond cheap components before entering cable territory and passing judgment.
...

Sounds like solid advice. I'll heed it. (no pun intended)
:cool:

Road Runner

Here's something about these Pear cables:

Frequency Response

The differences in sound quality that cables make can be both heard and measured. The frequency response of a system is one of the most basic ways to measure the accuracy of a sound system. Although it certainly does not give all of the information about the sound quality of a cable, it does illustrate the basic cable accuracy. An ideal system would have a frequency response that was completely flat from 20 Hz to 20kHz. That would mean that the system was able to play all frequencies, from low bass to high pitch symbols, without any distortion or decrease in volume.

The graph shown here is an example that gives a direct comparison between the frequency response of two audio systems that are identical except for the cables. As can be clearly seen, the system using the Pear Cable (depicted in dark green) shows greatly extended frequency response. When we say that our cables are more accurate, we actually mean it, and can prove it.

By allowing a virtually flat frequency response all the way to 20 kHz, the Comice Cables used in this test preserve the harmonic information of the original recording. When this system is compared side by side in listening tests, the difference is obvious. The "Other Cables" sound much harsher and tinny. Pear Cables on the other hand will sound far more natural, with an infinitely improved soundstage, because they are more accurate.

The bottom line is that if the sound never gets to the speakers, the quality of the rest of your system will not matter. Pear Cables allow your system to reach its full potential.

System Specifications

So what exactly is the comparison depicted on the graph?

The frequency response comparison has been specifically designed to be as fair of a comparison as possible. The setup is a 4 channel audio system that uses a cd player, a pair of 2-channel amps, and 2 pairs of coaxial 5.25" speakers. 2 channels are hooked up with our competitors cable, and 2 channels are hooked up with our Comice Cable.

The sets of cable are all identical in length and gauge. The Pear Cable side utilizes Comice Silver Interconnects, Comice Speaker Cable, and Comice Power Cable. The "Other Cable" is major name brand "high quality" cable. The interconnect pairs are both 5 meters long and utilize shielded twisted pair configurations. The speaker cables are all 14 foot long 12 gauge runs. The "Other Cable" speaker cable is a standard 12 gauge zip design, whereas the Comice Speaker Cable is a 12 gauge cable utilizing a unique 6 conductor configuration. Finally, the amplifiers are both hooked up using 2 foot runs of 8 gauge power wire.

The measurements were taken with a digital storage oscilloscope at the speaker terminals. Because this system utilizes just 5.25" coaxial speakers, the low frequency roll-off can clearly be seen in both cases, but this has nothing to do with the cables. This is due to the fact that the system was not designed to play low frequency bass, and cuts that information out.

One final important note is that the frequency response of cables will not, of course, give all the information about how they will sound. However, it will demonstrate the basic accuracy of the cables. Other factors such as cable vibration, noise, etc. will not show up in a frequency response plot, but are still important. Pear Cables are designed to deal with all of these factors.

http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_comice_frequencyresponse.htm

kl3640

mule wrote: »

I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I have a few questions.

Copper is copper is copper, right?

The electrons are supposed to pass on the surface of the wire as opposed to the core so I understand that the same gauge of wire with more strands theoretically should have less resistence, but can this make a difference and how does this make a difference in the end result of speaker sound?

Gold is a better conductor, but at some point you will have to go from copper to gold, How does it make a difference going from gold to copper at a banana or at the post, sooner or later there is going to be a connection between gold and copper.

I don't have a concrete opinion one way or the other, just looking for a technical reason and not a opinion swayed by bling appeal.

I will say that when I asked my brother, (who has a rediculous amount of expirience and education with electronics) without going into a long winded reply told me to use 14 gauge stranded copper, didn't matter if it was lamp cord or some fancy pants "audio" cord.

In an analog system, the quality of the conductor (and thus signal loss, interference, etc.) makes a big difference. Not so much in a digital system so long as the transmission standard's minimum requirement is met. Thus, in an analog system, 18ga gold wire vs 18ga copper wire with the same exact construction, insulators, etc, will make a difference. In a digital system, such as say a data network, I won't purchase anything beyond the minimum design for the maximum data throughput (current or planned) for my system. Therefore, if I was wiring an insurance office for gig-copper and I never thought I'd need more than that, I might only get Cat 5e. However, if I was wiring a computer graphics shop, I'd go with Cat 6e or fiber or something, because I'm always going to push the envelope of the data rate.

Perhaps a better example: I might spend a lot on a certain brand of copper cables for my SDA SRS 1.2 TL's, but I wouldn't spend a lot on a HDMI or digital optical audio cable so long as they're certified to meet the minimum transport standard. Those MONSTER "silver" and "gold" HDMI cables are the biggest rip-offs going...after all, it's a digital standard!

Mownhoj

Thanks Fellas for keeping this thread so informative and respectful. I suppose that I'm a total noob compared to you guys and I arrived here via a Google search asking if speaker wire makes a difference. So, just to show you guys how great a respectful debate can be, I feel like I have learned a good bit from this thread and I am glad to see that even with all the technical knowledge passed around, it seems both sides are comfortable with the views of the other side.
So, that said, I'm wondering if you guys can help me decide whether to spend money on good wire. My system was purchased in 1998 from a local store that is respected as a shop where audiophiles can go to get things better than what is typically available at big box stores. I spent about $3500 I think it was for a Pioneer Elite tuner, a set of Solid Solutions surround speakers (4 speakers, a center channel, and a woofer), and other items that have since been retired like Sennheiser wireless headphones, a tape deck, and a cd carousel. Now I just use my iphone and a DVD player and the tuner & speakers. I have my first home now, and I can finally crank my music without annoying anyone downstairs.
A few problems though, I have a permanent ringing in my ears from a few too many concerts and an afternoon of skeet shooting in which I forgot to wear ear protection. My dad was an Ear, Nose, and Throat doctor trained at Johns Hopkins, and he was really mad about the shooting day, he said I said significant high frequency hearing loss, which was a bummer. All my life I had meticulously protected my hearing then one day of shooting combined with a few too many Van Halen concerts and here I am with hearing damage. Plus, I'm 46 and am starting to notice that it's getting harder for me to hear things in general.
I never have been very satisfied with my system, it seems like I have to turn it up pretty loud to be able to hear any complexity in the music, (and the Sennheiser headphones were a complete waste of money, I think my cats would have a hard time hearing the music from them, the volume just didn't get anywhere near loud enough). But, I went about a year without turning on the system when I lived with my ex girlfriend, and when I set the system up after that, the surround never really has worked right. I can't seem to get the rear speakers to function properly, they always seem much lower in volume than the front, no matter how much I fiddle with the settings. That was the case right out of the box, but after the year of not being turned on, it is much worse. Sometimes they do work well, other times barely at all.
So, after reading these posts, I am wondering if my speaker wire might be an issue. I left my wire in my last place since it was hung in such a way that it was painted over, and if I had removed it, it would have left stripes. So now I am shopping for speaker wire and was thinking of running the wires through the ceiling and walls. But considering I am house-broke, have hearing damage and a so-so system, what do you guys think I should do? I think even the home improvement center cheap stuff would cost a hundred bucks, plus I don't where I would get wire that might be better than what I can get at a local big box store, but still kind of entry level.
Thanks for any and all opinions and tips!
John

thsmith

Welcome to club polk.

What wire are you using today ?

As long as its approperiate gauge for the lenght of your runs you will be fine for your system.

IMO to tell the difference with cables your system needs to be revealing. If you decide you want to try something not to expensive I suggest Canare 4S11 Cable at bluejeanscable.com or a used pair of AudioQuest Type 4s ($75 8' pair).

You can use a Radio SHack SPL meter to level match your speakers manually.