Wire in general/some tips.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn

1 day muh broda, i might get down wit dis english talk biz u be talkin about, but right now my broda, im down wit da wiger language! lol! jk!

F1nut

MX,

Hmmm.....ok, but it's wigger. IMHO, it's nothing to be proud of!!! It will not take you anywhere you want to go in life.

Cheers,
F1nut

MxStYlEpOlKmAn

You know, your probally right! LOL! I really, do not talk like that! So don't worry over me...*sigh*, i think I need to stop listening to eminem...

F1nut

MX,

Whew.....I'm glad!

Me worry? Nah, just check out my "Why Worry" thread.

F1nut

TroyD

Huh? Did I miss something?

BDT

RuSsMaN

A rant *corrected* itself last night, a post is missing, just let it go.

mantis

Yeah Troy You missed out on that one.

TroyD

Just curious, I couldn't figure out if something was missing or I was just dense. Either of which being a distinct possibility usually the case being the later than the former.

BDT

mantis

I'll tell you this Troy.........it has your flavor.And Missing of of it as well.........where the hell where you when we needed you bro??

TroyD

Shoot, when liv4fam is on a tear, you don't need me. He can make himself look like an idiot just fine all by himself.

BDT

HBombToo

WOW! This all happened last night?

Nuts!

I'm just tellen ya;)

rlw

OK, here's my take on the whole wire thing, and before you get PO'd, remember that it's just my opinion.

If you're using a receiver, any receiver, in your system, don't waste any money on fancy wire. The only difference you'll ever hear is in your mind. Save your coin for higher quality electronics.

If you have low-end separates - and I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody with this - then don't waste your money on wire. You might hear a difference - but that difference might be in your head. Save the scratch to get better quality sources and electronics.

If you haven't taken room acoustics into consideration, and dealt with the profound effects your room has on your speakers, don't waste your money on wire. Room treatments, speaker placement, and even room reinforcement will yield much larger improvements than wire.

If you haven't upgraded your AC mains to be a dedicated circuit or two, don't waste your money on wire. You'll get a huge bang for the buck in supplying your gear with clean AC power.

If you haven't taken vibration control into consideration, and dealt with insuring that at least your source components are isolated from vibration, don't waste your money on wire.

If you have high-quality separates, if you have addressed the room-speaker interface, if you have upgraded AC mains, if you have addressed vibration control - then, wire can make a big difference in your system.

In a given system, it might be speaker cable or interconnects which make the biggest difference. It might even be power cords.

In my 2-channel system, every person I've had listen can hear, and describe in the same terms, the differences between wire. It's not subtle.

I have a nice repeatable test for non-believers: since the system is current-hungry, I'll move everything over to one circuit. At a certain volume, playing LP's, the phono stage shuts down b/c it's not getting enough juice with big bass.

If I swap phono cables between a cable that has good bass response, and a cable that has poor bass response, the volume level at which the shutdown occurs changes. It's repeatable, predictable, measurable, and the only change is the phono cable.

As far as budget goes: I think 20% of budget is a number some sales/marketing type pulled out of their Excel-**** to figure out how to insure that retailers maintain an overall profit level to stay in business - a retailer can't sell everything at 5-10% over cost and stick around. Wire, with a markup of 100% or greater, offsets the mass-market electronics sold at little or no margin.

I have no problem spending whatever it takes to get a significant upgrade - to my ears. I even - much to my surprise - hear quite a difference in power cords in the 2 channel system.

In my HT system, wire doesn't make any difference at all. I've put exensive wire in for kicks: it sounds the same as cheap wire. Why bother?

HBombToo

NOW that was well said rlw!

HBomb

TroyD

Absolutely. Well said!

I think that with the rigs that most of us are running, certainly in my case. The money to that I could theoretically spend on wire could be spent better elsewhere.

It is my opinion that mid-fi products, Carver, NAD, B&K, Rotel so on and so forth, are designed to be sort of jack of all trades yet master of none. Mote, I'm not saying it's bad gear but it is what it is. Now your HIGH-end gear, different story, I think it is designed to be more sensitive to subtle differences.

BDT

TroyD

rlw,

Would you mind giving us a rundown of your gear and some things you've done as far as room treatments, etc. ?

anyone but me think rlw sounds an awful lot like Bob McG?

BDT

HBombToo

who is Bob McG?

an equipment list would be excellent.

HBomb

TroyD

Bob McGowan was a forum regular. I though Bob was very intelligent, lot of common sense and would not hesitate to call it as he saw it. Great guy and a true SDA fanatic.

BDT

mantis

Bob used to post around here along time ago...before your time......

r/w,
your points/opnion is noted.But I disagree with some of it.

Power and room acoustics are big part of your overall sound.Cords,conditioners stablizers....allday.
Placement is another way to improve your sound.Theater or 2 channel,it doesn't matter.

Wire I feel also adds to the list of overall improvement.I think it's up 2 the one spending the money if it's worth the small,medium or large gain they get when swapping out wire.I have heard alot of different wires on my personal system.I find one brand to be superior to all others in everyway(for audio)That would be Transparent.There ability to retain all the sound is amazing.I truely believe that matching the correct wire with the system is good thinking...Hell thats all I talk about mostly.
But I have to disagree with your logic with receivers and low end seperates.Good wire isn't just for high end systems.It benifits all levels.Some more then others.
I think the point of this is overall benefit of ones soundquality.Alot of guys choose to go down the road of adding amps to receivers.To them it improves there sound quality,maybe they are looking for louder,I've read that along my travels in here.But every last thing possible to improve your rig shouldn't be dismissed.
I ask the million dollar question.........How Important is the sound of your rig?What distance will you go to improve what you already own and when is it time for a change?

I have asked myself these questions time and time again.I was receiver and RT line not long ago.Now I feel Lsi and seperates are the way.Along with good wire.I tried the tipical Home Depot wire on my current rig and it was a desaster in compare to my current speaker wires.Very noticable.

Alot of you think I'm crazy.......nieve......an ****.....or whatever.truth is I'd love not to spend so much time/money into wire...it's effin wire.But when you hear things with one wire over another,I don't see any logic in clouding up your system.

Dr. Spec

Mantis, that previous post was your most lucid and well written yet. You made your arguments very well, and placed everything into perspective and ranking - excellent work - very impressive.

Doc

mantis

Thanks Doc,
Glad you enjoyed the read.

rlw

Originally posted by TroyD
rlw,

Would you mind giving us a rundown of your gear and some things you've done as far as room treatments, etc. ?

anyone but me think rlw sounds an awful lot like Bob McG?

BDT

Well, I was going to ask who the heck Bob McG was, but that's been answered.

I listed current 2 channel gear over in the 2 channel thread here , so I won't bore you again.

Current HT: 2 pairs of SRT's, a 350 center channel. Denon 5600 receiver; Marantz MA-700 on the center, and a Krell KAV-150a on the fronts. Mits 6000 DVD player, and a Pioneer 700(?) LD player, and DirectTV satellite w/ 2 dishes for HD. Mits 65" widescreen.

We also just moved in June, so I'm going through setup all over again - but it's great.

Back in the old house, I had a room [see attached diagram] that I got to play with a lot. I set it up a couple of different ways: first was a LEDE [Live End Dead End]; second was a 2C3D [MIT/ASC's 2 channel - 3 dimensional spec]; finally I settled in on a 2C3D scheme with some additional sonic treatment to make the front portion a bit less lively.

I ended up with about 50 panels of Sonex, as well as all the indicated Tube Traps. I used both a pair of SRT's, as well as the ML Prodigies in that room - not at the same time.

That room was very predictable - I could easily change the depth of the soundstage by moving just a few acoustic treatments. The more heavily treated front wall had the effect of putting your gear under a microscope.

You'd think that adding all the tubetraps would soak up bass, right? Uh-huh. Actually has the opposite effect - since it eliminates standing waves, it cleans up what is there, and restores quite a bit of impact.

Most of what I did was trial and error, but I also spent quite a bit of time talking with various folks from ASC, as well as the head cheese there, Art Noxon. Paul DiComo, Ken Swauger, and Tony from Polk all made contributions, including custom modifying an SRT x-over so that I could bypass the internal amps. I posted a pic from that room some time ago.

The HT in the old place was in the great room; big virtue of that room was it was large, flowed into other rooms, and could pretty much take all the bass you could throw at it, and you standing waves weren't an issue. I don't have a diagram of that room - sorry. I didn't do much to treat that room - just hung a lot [24] of velvel curtains to tame down the glass. I had SRT's and 3000p's in there, and also tossed in a Sunfire True Sub for a bit more arse-tickle. The downside of that room was that a large fireplace destroyed any hope of a soundstage, and my wife wouldn't let me tear it out.

In both those rooms, I spent way too much time with a calibrated mic and a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer listening to broadband pink noise, burst tones, and warble tones. One big thing I learned was that the flattest frequency response doesn't necessarily sound the best.

OK - current digs. My wife and I looked at over 50 houses before finding one with a room that met my needs for a 2 channel room. Cathredal ceiling, running from 8' on the sides to 15' center, very symmetrical and predictable. Ceiling is all unfinished cedar - even the big beams holding it all together. High enough that vertical reflections don't matter. Nice, open, lively sound.

One side of the room is all glass - ouch, but that's ok - and the other side opens onto the kitchen and dining room. Great for making sure that standing waves don't develop.

The big downside is a loft area over the kitchen, but 10 tubetraps lined up along the front tamed that echo-chamber down.

I've used both a short-wall and long-wall setup [actually, I rotated the system the whole way around the room to find the best spot], and settled in on a long-wall setup. 4 casement windows on the front wall are tamed down by some velvet drapes, and their high quality windows, so they don't rattle. Speakers are approximately 56" from the front wall.

A pair of half-round tubetraps behind the listening position, mounted about 7' up and running the length of the wall, EchoBuster Corner Flags in the four corners, and tubetraps behind the Prodigies are all the treatment I'm using for now. I've been playing around with different configurations, and so far this sounds the best. I have tried half-rounds on the front wall, and big cube traps in the corners. The front-wall experiment destroyed soundstage depth; tube traps in the corners dulled the bass a little bit.

Imaging is not quite as "wraparound" as in my other room, but the soundstage itself is deeper. Timbre and dynamics are much better.

Interestingly enough, bass response was quite thin until I put a big leather couch at the listening position, about 43" from the back wall. It's kind of funny - you pull this couch out of the room, put a chair at the listening position, and the bass is all gone. Put the couch back, and the bass comes back. I'm still trying to understand that one.

Oh, while I haven't diagrammed the setup yet, I am to the point of moving the listening position and speakers a 1/4" at a time. The biggest change comes in the bass with these moves.

Once again, sorry for babbling, hope that begins to answer your question.

TroyD

***mouth agape****

RuSsMaN

Same here man, I read that post 2 hrs ago, I got nothin'.

Any chance we can have an 'RLW' section of the forum?

Cheers,
Rooster

I do agree with what you said on what I call 'second order' reflections. In my intimate (sounds better than 'small') mancave, dampening behind the gear plays the biggest role for me. Immediate, noticeable improvement. My biggest 'echo' killer, even if just hanging a drape or throw on the wall.

mantis

r/w,
Prodigy's huh......nice.One of my personal favorites.I plan on owning them one day...........
Audio Research and Transparent mates extremelt well.So does Krell.
Anyways,
I read your post and saw the problem(if it really is one) about the couch when moved away from the wall.With a guess I'm gonna assume your putting it in a peak in cutting down responce.Most likely more mid bass then low bass,Leather couches are good for absorbing energy.But as you probably know,low bass is very hard to cut.

You could be creating a boundry of some sort with the movement.Anyways I really need to attend THX for better understanding of Room Acoustics.I did attend a cedia course with John Dahl from THX,he blew me right out of my chair.The passion he has for what is does is deep.It was a pleasure to meet him,study from him.I wanna continue my understanding of room acoustic's.Much to learn I have.

Dude ...LOL.Buying a house based around aduio is exactly why it took me over 3 years to buy a house.I found this builder and away we went.My basement has 9 foot ceilings and man I can't wait to start construction on the Theater room.I will be using it for double duty 2 channel and HT.

TroyD

Dan,

No offense, but give the man his props. I'm thinking you might be a little out of your depth there. Just an observation.

Kinda like a driver's education teacher giving driving tips to Richard Petty.

BDT

mantis

Troy,

No offense, but give the man his props. I'm thinking you might be a little out of your depth there. Just an observation

didn't take any away from him.He has done alot to his room,was thinking when he was typing,I noticed it and replied.I'm not the be all end all in room acoustic's,I thought I said that in my post where I'd like to continue my education.I was just trying to help a brother out.........

Kinda like a driver's education teacher giving driving tips to Richard Petty.

But you always feel the need to try to discredit me.I try man.

TroyD

I was just hacking on you Dan.

I'm certainly not trying to discredit you, however I though it was kinda funny. Your post had a condescending tone (which I'm sure was unintentional) that made me throw out that analogy.

BDT

audionutt

lennon and mccartny,stanley and simmons,dean and jerry, and troy and mantis.

joe

mantis

Troy,

I'm certainly not trying to discredit you, however I though it was kinda funny. Your post had a condescending tone (which I'm sure was unintentional) that made me throw out that analogy.

You misunderstand me,I misunderstand you.....thats just the way it goes I guess.No problem Bud,thats just what you do,I can except you for who you are.;) I can ,can you?:D

rlw

Originally posted by RuSsMaN

I do agree with what you said on what I call 'second order' reflections. In my intimate (sounds better than 'small') mancave, dampening behind the gear plays the biggest role for me. Immediate, noticeable improvement. My biggest 'echo' killer, even if just hanging a drape or throw on the wall.

What I think is fun to do [yes, I need to get out more often] is to take a piece or two of Sonex or Auralex, and play around with moving them around your listening room. Find out where they give you the biggest bang - that might be behind your gear, behind the listening position, catching the first reflections at the sidewalls, even catching the first reflection point on the ceiling.

You can buy a couple pieces of Auralex at Sam Ash's or Guitar Centers, I'm sure elsewhere, for $10 or less. Then, if you decide you like the change it makes, you can frame each piece in something as cheap as lath. Looks like some wacky wall sculpture that way. You get the benefits of a broader spectrum product, and it sill looks ok.

The theory is pretty simple: take a given sonic event. The brain perceives everything that happens within a certain time as being part of that event. So, if the sound coming from the speakers, and room reflections from that sound hitting your ears/brain at close enough intervals, the sonic event you hear is your speakers plus the room.

That can be bad: reflections kill the soundstage and imaging. Eliminate the worst of the reflections, and your soundstage comes to life. However, reflections do increase the "intelligibility" of speech, and vocals. If you "kill" all reflections in a room, that's why it sounds lifeless and dead.