What does "reference" mean?

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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited February 2008
    And that is why I say auto-calibration will get you closer than doing nothing, but follow it up by checking yourself if you want accuracy.

    The real question is - what way sounds better? Dialog and surrounds should be more active with your settings, just wondering if that works out to a better surround sound for you....

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    McLoki wrote: »
    And that is why I say auto-calibration will get you closer than doing nothing, but follow it up by checking yourself if you want accuracy.

    The real question is - what way sounds better? Dialog and surrounds should be more active with your settings, just wondering if that works out to a better surround sound for you....

    Michael

    The surrounds are much more pronounced now. As well as the center.

    I dont know which sounds better, cause I was so used to the HK's way.

    I didnt think that there would be that much of a difference.

    I really have no clue as to what the HK is doing. Other than equalizing. But the SPL is sure way off.

    I think the difference is the sweep instead of the pink noise.

    If I go back to the HK's way, I will know, deep down inside, that all channels are not even. I dont know if I could live with that.:p

    Im a big numbers guy.

    I will run my REW tonight, to see if the freq is still flat.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited February 2008
    You should have the centre and surrounds at same level as getting them present correctly is the job of sound engineers. Calibrate the system and let the soundtrack take care of the rest.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited February 2008
    wow, i just looked at the hk vs manual chart. there is a huge 6db difference between the levels... :(
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    Sami wrote: »
    You should have the centre and surrounds at same level as getting them present correctly is the job of sound engineers. Calibrate the system and let the soundtrack take care of the rest.

    Dont you worry my friend, I have plenty of movies to test the new setting on , this weekend.

    And when the amp comes in. I get the to do it all over again...wooohoooo!!!:D



    But thats the fun of having too much **** to play with...:p
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    Sami wrote: »
    wow, i just looked at the hk vs manual chart. there is a huge 6db difference between the levels... :(


    Yep, after I calibrated and plugged my numbers in. I said

    WWHHHAAATTT???:confused::confused::eek::eek:

    I checked and rechecked. All of my measurement or within .5dB's

    Who ever said you cant really tell a difference in 1dB is really mistaken.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited February 2008
    jakelm wrote: »
    Can you?? I mean really, can you have too much **** to play with???:D




    You are living proof that you can.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,034
    edited February 2008
    You tell me.

    man-woman-web.jpg
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    The other buttons are for tweeking..

    But that button is really the only one button I worry about.

    It gets pressed/turned once a month.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    George Grand wrote: »

    You are living proof that you can.

    :( Nobody likes me.....so all I have is my ****...just me..my 5 ears and my ****..:(
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • buton6
    buton6 Posts: 18
    edited February 2008
    I think all it means for me at least, is that you listen to what you're supposed to hear, or you hear what your supposed to hear.
    Denon 3803
    Denon CD
    old Sony Receiver 110W/ch
    LSI25 two rights looking to swap for one left (what can I say it was a good deal on two rights)
    CS101 center looking for LSiC
    KEF KIT200 and IQ3
    Cervin Vega AT-12 and LS-12
    JBL TLX181
    white van Dynalab speakers
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    buton6 wrote: »
    I think all it means for me at least, is that you listen to what you're supposed to hear, or you hear what your supposed to hear.


    Couldnt have said it better myself..:rolleyes:
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,034
    edited February 2008
    DannyD wrote: »
    I always read about people talking about listening to music or movies at "reference" levels. What exactly does this mean?
    It appears after rereading this thread that HT and 2-channel have separate "reference" levels, no?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    treitz3 wrote: »
    It appears after rereading this thread that HT and 2-channel have separate "reference" levels, no?

    Balancing output, weather 2 channel or 20 channels is all the same. Now, if your talking about the Dolby reference? I dont know. I never heard of reference level until I got into HT.
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2008
    In order to be a Reference you have to be over 50, before that your just a plain old Book.

    RT1
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    In order to be a Reference you have to be over 50, before that your just a plain old Book.

    RT1

    Hey, stay out of this. This is manly talk:D
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2008
    What do you know of Manley things??

    http://www.manleylabs.com/

    Its all two channel baby.

    RT1
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  • jakelm
    jakelm Posts: 4,081
    edited February 2008
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    What do you know of Manley things??

    http://www.manleylabs.com/

    Its all two channel baby.

    RT1


    I am forbidden to go there..:mad::mad::(:(
    Monitor 7b's front
    Monitor 4's surround
    Frankinpolk Center (2 mw6503's with peerless tweeter)
    M10's back surround
    Hafler-200 driving patio Daytons
    Tempest-X 15" DIY sub w/ Rythmik 350A plate amp
    Dayton 12" DVC w/ Rythmik 350a plate amp
    Harman/Kardon AVR-635
    Oppo 981hd
    Denon upconvert DVD player
    Jennings Research (vintage and rare)
    Mit RPTV WS-55513
    Tosh HD-XA1
    B&K AV5000


    Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek:
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  • SKsolutions
    SKsolutions Posts: 1,820
    edited February 2008
    dB is always in reference to something else. If you are thinking of loudness or pressure in acoustics, 0dB is the threshold of human hearing (reference). It can also be in reference to a known voltage, wattage, current, intensity, velocity etc. It can be used in equation with other measures where the reference is known. dBu, dBv, dBm, dBf, dBw, etc.

    In electronics, ie your receiver, it's common to use the dB log scale to display intensity. AVR's usually use a dBf scale that uses 0 as a clipping (reference) point, and counts down from there. It means nothing, and the only known quantity is the point at which the AVR will begin to melt.

    Heres a calculator:
    http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

    When you hear people using reference in two channel, it's the level they are accustomed to, or the level that the music would be played, if it were live.

    I could be entirely wrong.
    -Ignorance is strength -
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  • ward91
    ward91 Posts: 338
    edited March 2008
    McLoki wrote: »
    Not true. Reference level (DD reference level that is) is 105db peaks from each channel except the sub. (it gets 115db peaks)

    Since each system (if you use Avia or DVE to calibrate) is calibrated from your seating position to the same volume, (that is what the -+ for each channel is for) -20 with my system in my room should be the same volume as -20 with your system in your room.

    If you calibrate using Avia you calibrate 0 to 85db because Avia is recorded to exactly 20db under reference level. If you calibrate using DVE, you calibrate to 0 to 75db because it is recorded 30db under reference.

    You can now go back to your regularly scheduled pissing match... ;)

    Michael

    im shure i heard that somewhere too.(the spl part) i would agree with this.
    ELECTRONICS
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    MC2 MC450
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  • SKsolutions
    SKsolutions Posts: 1,820
    edited March 2008
    ^^^ It is, in one instance, and only one instance, Dolby Digital for HT.
    Here's a good wiki for starters.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
    -Ignorance is strength -
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2008
    reeltrouble1 wrote: »
    What do you know of Manley things??

    http://www.manleylabs.com/

    Its all two channel baby.

    RT1

    For now they are.

    Reference level is a marketing concept that stuck but we're all slaves to it now. HT should have some kind of standard, so its a catch-22 as I agree with the idea. If the industry didn't develop a baseline some folks would be more confused than they are now.

    I don't know what happened to playing with knobs/buttons until it sounds good but at least 2CH is free from this machine.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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