What does "reference" mean?

Face

AndyGwis wrote: »

Reference level is not truly attainable unless every piece of your audio system, including your cables, is THX Ultra 2 certified.

Anything else, and you may as well be listening to AM on a clock radio.

LOL!!

McLoki

treitz3 wrote: »

That is their reference only. You and I both know that +- 0db will differ with different gear and setups.

Not true. Reference level (DD reference level that is) is 105db peaks from each channel except the sub. (it gets 115db peaks)

Since each system (if you use Avia or DVE to calibrate) is calibrated from your seating position to the same volume, (that is what the -+ for each channel is for) -20 with my system in my room should be the same volume as -20 with your system in your room.

If you calibrate using Avia you calibrate 0 to 85db because Avia is recorded to exactly 20db under reference level. If you calibrate using DVE, you calibrate to 0 to 75db because it is recorded 30db under reference.

You can now go back to your regularly scheduled pissing match...

Michael

jakelm

Ok, so let me understand this correctly.

If I pop in DVE and sit in listening position. I calibrate all my channels to 75dB's. Look where my volume setting is (lets say its -20). So when I watch a movie I should listen to it, no less than -20 on my AVR? So I know excactly where 75dB's are?

McLoki

No, when you calibrate using DVE, it is recorded at 30db under reference. That means that you sit in your normal listening\watching position, break out the trusty spl meter, turn your volume to 0 (reference level) and adjust each channel until it reads 75db. (it is easier to turn the volume to +5 db and calibrate to 80db if you have an analog SPL meter, but its your choice)

The only limit to how far you turn it up is your own comfort and the equipment in use. If the soundstage starts to break up or the sound starts to distort, you are way to loud. (due to the dynamic nature of a movie soundtrack - the next time a peak comes along there is a good chance purchasing of drivers will be in your future)

Michael

Edit - just for comparison, while I have had my system at -5db before with no problems - it is to loud for me to comfortably listen to at that level. My normal movie watching is -15 to -25. Also keep in mind that this is DD reference level. When playing DTS tracks could demand much louder than 105db from each channel.

jakelm

Micheal,

Question. When calibrating a HT. Would you have your mains @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels or, would you have your center @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels to match the center.

What channel is your reference point?

I cant get my AVR to volume 0, for it to equal 75dB's. It would be way too loud. Maybe -30 or somewhere around that.

treitz3

McLoki wrote: »

Not true.

Allow me to clarify, if you have a receiver that you set a 0db and you have 4 ohm speakers the volume will be at a certain level. Take the same system and introduce 8 ohm speakers at 0db and you will not have the same volume. At least that's been my experience.

McLoki

jakelm wrote: »

Micheal,

Question. When calibrating a HT. Would you have your mains @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels or, would you have your center @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels to match the center.

What channel is your reference point?

I cant get my AVR to volume 0, for it to equal 75dB's. It would be way too loud. Maybe -30 or somewhere around that.

You just adjust your system so each channel reads 75db (assuming you are using DVE). You dont adjust each channel against each other, just set them all to the same level.

When you use DVE (or Avia) it is recorded at a volume so 0 will be close to 75db or 85db (depending on which disk you are calibrating from) Trust me, you will barely hear the test tones if you have your AVR set to -30. You set your AVR to 0 just for calibrating, not for normal listening.


Michael

jakelm

Micheal,

My HK is -85 to 0.

If I put the disk in and press play. Have all channel levels @ 0, then turn my master volume to 0, it will be dangerously loud.

So with all channel levels @ 0, where should the master volume be set?

I dont think I am understand something here...

dbaldus

jakelm wrote: »

Micheal,

Question. When calibrating a HT. Would you have your mains @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels or, would you have your center @ 0 and raise and lower all other channels to match the center.

What channel is your reference point?

I cant get my AVR to volume 0, for it to equal 75dB's. It would be way too loud. Maybe -30 or somewhere around that.

Sounds like I am having the same problem as you.

I have a Harman Kardon 247, and when trying to calibrate all of my channels with my AVR volume set to -10.0dB I am getting between 80 and 84dB readings on the analog SPL for each channel. I am sitting 9' from the fronts/center and 7' from the rears. My AVR only has adjustments to go from +/-10dB for each channel, so setting the AVR volume to 0.0dB would be WAY too loud (meaning there is no way I would be able to calibrate each channel at 75 dB).

By the way, I am using my receiver's internal test tones to calibrate, not Avia or something else like that.

What should jakelm and I do?

jakelm

Thats why I was saying -30 for master volume, since DVE is -30dB's from reference 75dB's

McLoki

treitz3 wrote: »

Allow me to clarify, if you have a receiver that you set a 0db and you have 4 ohm speakers the volume will be at a certain level. Take the same system and introduce 8 ohm speakers at 0db and you will not have the same volume. At least that's been my experience.

It does not matter since both speakers are calibrated to the same volume. If you and I both play the same tone and calibrate our systems to the same volume at 0db - we will hear the same volume when playing at -15db. You may have your right channel set at -10db to calibrate the volume correctly and I may have to set mine to +5 - but as long as both our sytems end up playing the same tone at the same volume, we will hear them at the same volume at each others houses.

If you change your speakers (or any component in your system - including room or listening position) You need to recalibrate because as you pointed out - the volume will no longer be the same.

i.e. you are no longer calibrated to the same reference as mine so yours may be louder or quieter at the same volume.

McLoki

dbaldus wrote: »

Sounds like I am having the same problem as you.

I have a Harman Kardon 247, and when trying to calibrate all of my channels with my AVR volume set to -10.0dB I am getting between 80 and 84dB readings on the analog SPL for each channel. I am sitting 9' from the fronts/center and 7' from the rears. My AVR only has adjustments to go from +/-10dB for each channel, so setting the AVR volume to 0.0dB would be WAY too loud (meaning there is no way I would be able to calibrate each channel at 75 dB).

By the way, I am using my receiver's internal test tones to calibrate, not Avia or something else like that.

What should jakelm and I do?

Now I am starting to understand. You are using the tones built into your AVR, not a disk like DVE or Avia. In that case, you can call HK and see what volume you should set your system to or just adjust all channels so they play at the same volume. Since you are removing the DVD player and connection method from the equasion, I don't think you will end up at true reference level anyway.

I.E. - in your case, set the volume on your AVR to -10 and adjust each channel + or - so they all read 80db. That will at least give you good surround effect. The only thing you will be missing, is -15 at my house may not be the same volume as -15 at yours (not really a big deal).

One additional thing I will throw out - I set all my channels (including sub) to the same level. Once done though, I play music I am familar with and fine tune the sub to my liking. (usually + or - a couple of DB) all your other channels should be set to the same volume though.

jakelm

Micheal,

What is the reasoning the EzEq autoconfig, asked the user to set the HKs master volume to -35? My thinking is, it calibrates the channels itself. It uses -35 on the master volume, to calibrate to 75dB's?

On a side note, even at -10 on the master volume, I could not get to 75-80dB's. I am more around, 95dB's.

Face

jakelm wrote: »

Micheal

If you're going to ask the man for help, you can at least spell his name right.

jakelm

Face wrote: »

If you're going to ask the man for help, you can at least spell his name right.

I am so sorry, please forgive me. Michael

McLoki

As I said - reference level is when we all use the same volume as a reference. Since you are using the internal test tones of your AVR to set the level, it will be usefull to calibrate each channel in your system and should be used for that. It is not calibrating to a reference level so don't worry about the 0db master volume thing I mentioned before.

As for the ref/eq built into your AVR. I would guess that the test tone built into your AVR is set so at reference (0 master volume) it will be about 105db. (as opposed to DVE being about 75db at that volume) By turning your master volume to -35, the test tones will be played at a non-annoying level of about 70db and adjust each channel up and down from there. Check with your spl meter and see if that is accurate at all..... (like I said, it was just a guess as I do not own that avr)

Personally, I would use the auto config and then go into the manual settings and verify that everything is set correctly. (set all speakers to small, check the distances, verify the crossovers are set above the -3db point of your speakers, and run through the test tones to make sure all speakers are set to the same volume.)

Anyway - there you go...

Michael

BTW - don't sweat the misspelling - I have been called much worse.

jakelm

I would have tested the HK's calibration while it was calibrating, but its a freq sweep. I guess after the freq sweep is finished I can play back the pink noise test tones to determine at what dB is -35.

McLoki

Based on -10 master volume being 95db, -35 should be about 70db.....

If that is true - set your master volume to -25 and adjust all channels up or down to equal 80db. It won't be exactly reference level, but it should be close. (I like 80db over 70 just because ambient noise is less of a factor with louder test tones)

Michael

Sami

If you're calibrating your HT, set all channels to 0dB gain first (this is the channel level, not your volume level). Then pop in AVIA, get to your LF channel noise chapter, adjust your main volume until your LF gets to 75dBm on your SPL meter. If it says -18 on your prepro, that's fine, it doesn't have to be 0. Now adjust each channel to read 75dBm. When you watch movies, that -18 is now set to Dolby Reference Level. I personally find it too loud, and so do many others.

jakelm

Sami wrote: »

If you're calibrating your HT, set all channels to 0dB gain first (this is the channel level, not your volume level). Then pop in AVIA, get to your LF channel noise chapter, adjust your main volume until your LF gets to 75dBm on your SPL meter. If it says -18 on your prepro, that's fine, it doesn't have to be 0. Now adjust each channel to read 75dBm. When you watch movies, that -18 is now set to Dolby Reference Level. I personally find it too loud, and so do many others.

So basicaly you adjusting you entire HT on the left front channel.

I wonder how close the internal pink noise would work for this.

dbaldus

So honestly, the SPL level that you set all of your speakers to does not matter as long as they are all the same at a specific volume level?

So I could set all speakers levels to be 75dB at 0 volume, 85dB at 0 volume, 75dB at -10 volume, 78dB at -10 volume, etc. and it really doesn't matter except my sound won't be at the same level at the same volume as yours is at your home?

Because I currently have all of my channels set to 82dB at an AVR volume of -10dB

Thanks again...

McLoki

dbaldus wrote: »

So honestly, the SPL level that you set all of your speakers to does not matter as long as they are all the same at a specific volume level?

So I could set all speakers levels to be 75dB at 0 volume, 85dB at 0 volume, 75dB at -10 volume, 78dB at -10 volume, etc. and it really doesn't matter except my sound won't be at the same level at the same volume as yours is at your home?

Because I currently have all of my channels set to 82dB at an AVR volume of -10dB

Thanks again...

You got it. Set all channels to the same volume (tweak the sub if you want to) and you are good to go.

If you want your -15 to be the same volume as mine, reread the posts above this one....

Michael

sucks2beme

Or, if you're one of us 2 channel knuckle draggers, just turn up the big
knob until it sounds good.

I-SIG

sucks2beme wrote: »

Or, if you're one of us 2 channel knuckle draggers, just turn up the big
knob until it sounds good.

BING BING BING!!!! We have a winner!:D :cool:

Wes

VR3

I tried calibrating my 2 ch system but decided it was pointless...

engtaz

Reference is what you compare all else to. Reference changes when better things come along and are added to your Reference system.

engtaz

McLoki

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I tried calibrating my 2 ch system but decided it was pointless...

2ch requires the knuckle dragging route. Rather appropriate eh... ;):p

George Grand

Sucks2beme is my new hero.

You guys have too much **** to play with.

jakelm

George Grand wrote: »

You guys have too much **** to play with.

Can you?? I mean really, can you have too much **** to play with???:D




....I think NOT!!

jakelm

Ok.

Differene between HK's Ez EQ autocalibration and manual calibration with SPL meter set to 80dB's.

If you notice, there is a big difference to what the HK reads and what my RS SPL meter reads, in the same location.

Of corse the HK's mic uses sweep, as I use the HK's pink noise.