Nerds

shack

DarqueKnight wrote:

My father advised me and my sisters to decide what kind of lifestyle we wanted and then choose a career that would facilitate that lifestyle.

I gave my daughters exactly the opposite advice. I told them to find something that they love to do and adapt your lifestyle around that. I know lots of miserable people that make a "good" living and absolutely hate their jobs...but must keep them to maintain their lifestyle. I also know a number of people who love what they do and enjoy going to work everyday and do without some of the "luxuries". The latter group seems much happier.

Along the same lines, I also told them that just because they start a certain career path...they can always change. I advised them to take a good mix of electives in college, basic business, some computer courses, etc...so they will have a basic skillset if their chosen profession doesn't pan out that will allow them to try something else.

mhardy6647

Engineers today seem (at least in my line of work) to become project managers by default.

I did project management for 3 years; glad to be back to running an R&D lab. I am too disorganized for PM.

DarqueKnight

shack wrote: »

I gave my daughters exactly the opposite advice. I told them to find something that they love to do and adapt your lifestyle around that. I know lots of miserable people that make a "good" living and absolutely hate their jobs...but must keep them to maintain their lifestyle.

Our dad assumed, correctly, that we had the common sense not to choose a job/career that would make us miserable.;)

sucks2beme

Project management. Yuk! Been there, done that.

We have a generation of folks that feel the big bucks are in MBA/business
degrees. And they're right. Why do all that hard math, when all
you have to do to make $150k is talk and smooze?

Almost evey customer I deal with is dumping technical/engineering
people and outsourcing. Same for my employer. Big conference calls
with a ton of people over-analyzing every aspect of a job that any
first year tech could do blindfolded. Then contract it out to try to
save a few bucks. All they want me to do is be there to talk the
contract people through the hard stuff. Most the time, I just work from
the house. Makes for a short commute.

Any wonder why we are getting killed by Asian nations? Steve Wozniac didn't
get his degree until AFTER he left Apple. A big company wouldn't of looked
twice at him for a job. Yet he was one of the leaders of the modern
computer age.

Demiurge

when all you have to do to make $150k is talk and smooze?

lol...

sucks2beme

Demiurge wrote: »

lol...

Yes, I know its spelled SCHMOOZE, but those guys are toooo smooth
of operators for all those extra letters.
And yes, many of them make twice as much as an engineer.
I've know a couple of engineers that went over to the dark side.

Shizelbs

Demiurge wrote: »

lol...

Elaborate please

Demiurge

Shizelbs wrote: »

Elaborate please

You're goading me!!!

Shizelbs

Demiurge wrote: »

You're goading me!!!

How dare you?! I would never!

shack

sucks2beme wrote:

And they're right. Why do all that hard math, when all
you have to do to make $150k is talk and smooze?

That would be an interesting point of view....IF you had a clue of what you were talking about.

obieone

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Yup, absolutely true today; you'll make better money, faster.
And I say this as a PhD biochemist with 20 years of experience in analytical instrumentation and biotechnology!

I'd probably be retired now if I had learned to do automobile repair or HVAC (and I am not being facetious).

Um, I disagree. I worked in the HVAC trade for 4 years in MA/ RI, with about 10+ hours of o.t. and barely cleared 44K my last year B-4 moving so.
If you want to make more $, I'm SURE you could get a job as a calibration technician.
Just don't plan on being HOME a whole lot. The guy I talked to down here said he averages 163 nights in hotels per year:eek:

sucks2beme

shack wrote: »

That would be an interesting point of view....IF you had a clue of what you were talking about.

Yes, I have a clue. Maybe it's just my industry.
Bottom line- the sheepskin pays out. Non-technical non-engineering
pays much better in many cases. Sales, management, and
the latest wave of project managers make the big bucks. And eveyone
can see the open recs and the pay scales for these jobs before they're filled.
So Im not guessing. Old line PM types are still out there humping out
work, and as they retire, the new wave guys take over.
And smart engineers take the less technical route to the big bucks.
That's where the real drain comes from.
My engineering head, strange enough, is an MBA!
The guy is insanely smart, but didn't have the patience for management.
And he must work at 80 hours a week. He reads everything and remembers it.
Guys like that are what drive the business.

shack

Your statement that "talking and smoozing" is all that is necessary to make the big bucks is just ****.

I could make a similar generalizaton that all engineers are a bunch of narrow minded, number crunchers that have no clue about the big picture of running a business and the people skills of a flea. But I won't because even though that describes some engineers...it doesn't decribe the vast majority.

bikezappa

I think any successful company needs to have a balance between the business and the technical. Both parts are needed and required. Smoozing is very important, it allows the customer to feel confident with the product. Smoozing is good salemanship.

The problems that I have experienced is when the business people start telling the engineers how to make it. And when the engineers tell the business people what to sell.

PhantomOG

Damn... I didn't know it was so easy to pull down $150k. I'm an engineer not making that much. Someone please please enlighten me on how I can easily start making that much money by talking and "smoozing". I may sound sarcastic, but seriously... tell me how to make that money.

shack

PhantomOG wrote:

Damn... I didn't know it was so easy to pull down $150k. I'm an engineer not making that much. Someone please please enlighten me on how I can easily start making that much money by talking and "smoozing". I may sound sarcastic, but seriously... tell me how to make that money.

Make your company significantly more than $150,000 per year and chances are they will make sure you are compensated accordingly. I generate roughly 8x my income in revenues for my company.

PhantomOG

shack wrote: »

Make your company significantly more than $150,000 per year and chances are they will make sure you are compensated accordingly.

That sounds like real work. I just want to talk and smooze.

shack

PhantomOG wrote:

And who do I talk to and smooze to do that?

Whomever will buy goods or services from your company. If you can sell, you are always worth a lot to a company. It is not unusual for income producers to make more than executives. I don't care how many good people design and build a service or product, and how many people manage the process, and how many people keep track of all of it...unless someone pays for it, it means nothing. For all the bad rap salespeople get...it is the ability to talks and smooze that makes them successful.

PhantomOG

Being in sales does sound like a dream. If you're doing well, you take all the credit. If you're doing poorly, blame the product!

Ricardo

This subject is in my mind right now. I am a Mechanical Engineer. Since I was 5 I could not see a screwdriver because I'd pick it up and find something to unscrew; this got me in a LOT of trouble. I damaged a lot of things at home (I was actually "fixing" them). I guess there was something in my genes that made me like working with my hands and try to understand how things worked. M.E. was like the most logical major for me, and I can't complain (even though I do more systems/processes work now). I know that in case of need I can work in almost anything that requires troubleshooting/technical skills.

Fast forward 25 years. My son is a junior in high school. He never showed any interest in using his hands for more than handling a mouse or a video game controller. I never pushed him, but usually asked for his help when I was fixing something...he just does not have it.
So his college plans are more focused on the business/admin areas. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, he might end doing better than me....but I guess I expected him to get some of my (few) good things.
I just think that there's going to be way more competition in those areas.

DarqueKnight

sucks2beme wrote: »

We have a generation of folks that feel the big bucks are in MBA/business degrees. And they're right. Why do all that hard math, when all you have to do to make $150k is talk and smooze?

Most engineers I have been acquainted with do not want the extra responsibility, longer hours, and politics that go with managament, and particularly senior management, positions. Most of them do the math and it just does not make sense, unless they have a shot at the top tier jobs making high six or seven figures. If an engineer making $75,000/year and working a standard 40 hour week takes a managerial job making $150,000/year and then has to work 70-80 hours a week, where is the real financial gain in that? If the $150,000/year job is going to position you in the short term to springboard into a really lucrative senior executive position, then it might be worth it. Then again, it might not. It depends on what is important to you.

sucks2beme wrote: »

Bottom line- the sheepskin pays out. Non-technical non-engineering pays much better in many cases. Sales, management, and the latest wave of project managers make the big bucks.

Every job has costs. Some people only look at a salary and a title and go for it, not considering high personal costs such as longer hours at work, additional pressure and responsibility, more travel time, longer commute times, impact on your marriage and family life, etc. Several years ago, Fortune magazine did an article on the children of senior executives. At the worst, many of them resented their fathers (or mothers) because he (or she) was never around. At the least, some of them had no resentment, they just felt like they really didn't know their fathers because he was never around.

sucks2beme wrote: »

And eveyone can see the open recs and the pay scales for these jobs before they're filled.

sucks2beme wrote: »

My engineering head, strange enough, is an MBA! The guy is insanely smart, but didn't have the patience for management. And he must work at 80 hours a week.

That is like having two full time jobs. :eek: So...what is his quality of life like? After you spend 14-16 hours at work, what do you feel like doing afterwards? If all you have in your life is your job, an 80 hour work week is probably nice. If you want to have time and energy for a life outside of work, a job with an 80-90 hour work week might not be the most appropriate.;)

reeltrouble1

Get into my line of work, the pay is marvelous the benefits great, your clientel might not be the greatest but ya cant have everything. Why thank you, all of you. Any degree will get you in, although CJ would be best.

RT1

bobman1235

What's your line of work RT1? Since you mention CJ, are you an LEO?

sucks2beme

Wow. Looks like my 5:30 A.M. rant riled up a few people.
Let's set the record straight. There's not a lot of these guys.
Most of the PM's work hard and don't make anywhere near that much.
But a couple of these "high level" PM jobs started appearing. And they were
filled with guys from another division in about 10 seconds. I think they
were created to keep them around.
Why does that piss me off? Well, the other week one of those guys drags
me into conference calls ALL DAMN WEEKEND.
Most PM's will call to ask tech questions one on one. Not these guys.
I was a PM for a couple of years myself. It's not like I don't know what they do.

The real point is, we seem to becoming a country of business majors
and lawyers. You can't blame the young, they just follow the money trail.
Do we need salespeople? Yes. Is it an easy job? No.
Do we need twice as many salespeople? NO!

Note: this is just the mindless ramblings of a technical person for the
general amusement of Polkies. None of it should be taken too
seriously.

reeltrouble1

20 years a Fed Bob, its not for everyone but its been good to me.

RT1

steveinaz

I'm also a Fed, but with 15 years military that I bought back. The pay isn't earth-shattering, but the benefits are outstanding. 27 paid leave days, 13.5 PAID sick days, federal holidays, etc. Discounted health and life insurance, TSP, the list goes on and on. Job security is probaby the TOP benefit. I'll have 26 years in July, and plan on doing 40. FWIW, I bought back 15 years of Army service for about $5,400!

bobman1235

What does it mean when you "buy back" years of service?

reeltrouble1

I get extra pay for LEO being a FED LEO is a great career with unlimited potential we are hiring. All the FED agencies need agents and officers.

RT1

mule

I saw a article last year (i don't remember the publication) that had figures showing college edjucation to be a bad investment. They figured cost of schooling, interest on student loans and the loss of income from attending school full time as compared to people who went to work straight from high school. The increase in income didn't offset the cost. Of course they are taking averages because this wouldn't apply to a plastic surgeon in a major city but it is amazing how many people with college educations work at resturants and wall mart.

steveinaz

bobman1235 wrote: »

What does it mean when you "buy back" years of service?

If you are not a military retiree*, you can buy back your service time to count towards federal civil service retirement/time in service/bumping rights in case of a RIF (reduction in force). Your buy-back is based on a percentage of what you made total while in the service, and what you would have paid in had you been a federal service civilian, but at a discounted rate. It can be paid in full up front, or you can simply have pay withheld (minimum of $35 a pay period) to pay the buy-back off. You can also send in lump sum payments anytime you wish. If you start the buy-back within the first 2 years of federal service (FERS employees), the buy-back is interest free; though interest is minimal if you miss the window. As soon as you make your first payment, your status/years in service changes immediately; IOW, you don't have to wait for it to be paid off to reap some of the benefits of the buy-back--of course your retirement would be affected if you didn't complete the payoff.

* Not completely accurate, I'm not a "resource management" expert so bear with me. You can buy back your time if you are a retiree, but since you cannot "double-dip" you'd have to give up your military retirement check and go only for your federal retirement. For 99/100 people this isn't financially advantageous. Most retiree's come back as contractors for this reason.

Now, to add to the confusion, for time in service purposes, my 15 years military counted the day I started as a Fed. I got the full leave/sick leave benefit---BUT, it didn't count towards retirement "dollars" paid out or time needed to retire. That's the difference bewteen a buy-back, and simply continuing your service with Uncle Sam. You have to buy-back to reap the financial benefit and retirement years accruement of your military service to be elligible for full retirement benefits.