Nerds

bikezappa

According to his new book, Nerds, David Anderegg is quoted "Consider this terrifying statistic, in 2004, U.S. colleges graduated more sports-exercise majors than electrical engineers."

And the U.S. still has many fat people.

This isn't good.

nms

That's because being in engineering is hard,:), I know because I'm currently double majoring in Mechanical Engineering and Political Science. The Poly Sci classes are a joke compared to the engineering classes.

But your statistic is frightening.

bikezappa

Many of the college degrees that young people are getting are worth very little in the real world of earning a living IMHO. While I don't have any children many of my friends are putting their children though college. When I ask both the children and parents what they are majoring in I am shocked by the vagueness of the asnwers. Some don't even have majors in their third year. Medical management comes to mind as an example.

Demiurge

nms wrote: »

That's because being in engineering is hard,:), I know because I'm currently double majoring in Mechanical Engineering and Political Science. The Poly Sci classes are a joke compared to the engineering classes.

But your statistic is frightening.

Stick with it. I'm still dreading the day my mechanical engineers retire.

nms

Demiurge wrote: »

Stick with it. I'm still dreading the day my mechanical engineers retire.

Oh I will. It's hard but I will have a career I'll enjoy later. And the money isn't half bad either

EDIT

---

Who do you work for? Maybe I'll come work for you when I graduate

mulveling

bikezappa wrote: »

Many of the college degrees that young people are getting are worth very little in the real world of earning a living IMHO. While I don't have any children many of my friends are putting their children though college. When I ask both the children and parents what they are majoring in I am shocked by the vagueness of the asnwers. Some don't even have majors in their third year. Medical management comes to mind as an example.

This is the result of everyone deciding their child deserves to go to college. The only way that was going to happen was to build trade schools and glorified high schools into what were formerly rigorous academic institutes...so now we have academic institutes with bizarre whats-it majors and a high % of graduates that end up never working in their major field. Obviously there's a need for these trades, but why should they be taught in an academic institution?

I saw a lot of kids that I thought shouldn't be in college (struggling mightily with core curriculum, never learning anything worth keeping past final exam date), and I went to a fairly well respected one (Ga Tech). Yet, the overall consensus now is that in fact everyone should be in college and so they passed through. Thanks society, for devaluing my hard-earned bachelor's degree

bikezappa

I was in Vocational School for two years in high school and went on to college to get a BA in Physics. The first day in college we were told to look to your left and right because at the end of the four years two of you would be gone. The data was that there were over a 1,000 freshman and only about 400 would graduate with science degrees.

Many of those freshmen didn't belong there.

sophie

bikezappa wrote: »

I was in Vocational School for two years in high school and went on to college to get a BA in Physics. The first day in college we were told to look to your left and right because at the end of the four years two of you would be gone. The data was that there were over a 1,000 freshman and only about 400 would graduate with science degrees.

Many of those freshmen didn't belong there.

where did you go to school? my physics teacher in high school tells us they did the same thing to him.

Payton

shack

I mentioned to my daughters they might want to keep an eye out for the nerds in HS. I told them that ten years down the road a lot of the "popular" guys will be holding the STOP/SLOW reversible road constrution signs or practicing their "would you like to upgrade to the SUPER carwash today" lines. On the other hand the nerds will be taking their BMW, Benz and Porsches in for detailing and trading stocks on their WiFi while they wait.

nms

shack wrote: »

I mentioned to my daughters they might want to keep an eye out for the nerds in HS. I told them that ten years down the road a lot of the "popular" guys will be holding the STOP/SLOW reversible road constrution signs or practicing their "would you like to upgrade to the SUPER carwash today" lines. On the other hand the nerds will be taking their BMW, Benz and Porsches in for detailing and trading stocks on their WiFi while they wait.

And we call this "revenge of the nerds"!

bikezappa

sophie wrote: »

where did you go to school? my physics teacher in high school tells us they did the same thing to him.

Payton

I went to Lowell Technological Institute in the 60s. It's now called Lowell U Mass and now has liberal arts courses and degrees.

2/3 of the freshman class did drop out also.

Demiurge

Back to the first post, the reason this is happening is the public schools cram down the throats of the kids that they will be failures if they don't go to college. Biggest load of crap going these days. There's nothing wrong with trying to get a kid to go to college, but there's no point in going if you don't know why you're there. It's not for everyone, and some may want to take a couple of years to find their way first.

We, as a country, still need people who are skilled in the trades. There is good money in it, and if a kid likes working on cars, why on earth should he be discouraged from going to a small tech school or working at a family run shop before taking on schooling?

I just don't agree that college determines success or failure. You're better off if you go, so long as you go with a purpose.

My cousin is working for me for the time being and he has a physical therapy degree from a major 4 year school. The stuff he's doing here has nothing to do with that degree. The field he wants to be in is clogged right now and he's depressed because he had the stupid idea stuck in his head that getting a degree guarantees you a great job making $50K out of college.

It doesn't work that way in the real world very often.

bobman1235

Another side effect to the "everyone needs to go to college" mentality is that jobs that shouldn't even remotely require college degrees now do. Why does my receptionist need a college degree? So it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point; everyone's told they need a college degree to succeed, so every person offering a job gets the same idea and requires the useless college degree!

shack

The problem is what degrees are available...what good is a BA in 12th Century Russian Art and Slavic Literature? Better to learn a trade.

shadowofnight

We never hire fresh out of school for engineering positions...the unemployed pool of skilled experienced engineers is too vast. Where we do hire people fresh out of school ( Trade schools as well ) is in the technician based positions.

I have interviewed people with 4 to 8 years of schooling that couldnt change a lightbulb without help...and guys have walked in with H.S. diplomas and a 1 to 2 year stay at a local trade school and could visualize/troubleshoot/fix anything you put in front of them...with a starting pay of around 35 to 40K and an almost unlimited ceiling if you are good.

obieone

I believe it was Socrates who said "You can judge a society by the number of engineers it has" (I may have the author wrong)
The scary figure I heard on cable was that the U.S. graduates about 50k engineers a year, while Japan & China graduate 500k a year. And people can't understand WHY we're getting our butts kicked in the trade wars.
Another problem is-(NMS Please stay in your discipline), is that M.E.'s can make more $ out of the gate in another field then doing the 5 year apprenticeship to get their A.S.M.E. license. GRRRRRR!
Granted, once you get that license, you can pretty much write your own ticket!!

bobman1235

obieone wrote: »

The scary figure I heard on cable was that the U.S. graduates about 50k engineers a year, while Japan & China graduate 500k a year.

Well that's a misleading stat, considering the population of the US is 300 million, while the population of China + Japan is almost 1.5 BILLION.

obieone

bobman1235 wrote: »

Well that's a misleading stat, considering the population of the US is 300 million, while the population of China + Japan is almost 1.5 BILLION.

The reason for the figure being scary has-IMO-nothing to do with per capita.
It's the fact that OUR society glorifies losers like rappers, actors and sports stars. In the movie 'Apollo 13', to me the hero wasn't the people piloting the capsule, it was the ENGINEERS who figured out HOW to get them back ALIVE!

Demiurge

obieone wrote: »

The reason for the figure being scary has-IMO-nothing to do with per capita.
It's the fact that OUR society glorifies losers like rappers, actors and sports stars. In the movie 'Apollo 13', to me the hero wasn't the people piloting the capsule, it was the ENGINEERS who figured out HOW to get them back ALIVE!

Is this like a Ford Vs Chevy debate, but Engineers Vs All Other Professions?

devani

I find less students are interested in EE...I got my degree almost 10 years ago and saw less freshmens in EE....the pay is very low compared to other professions....the only reason that I stay with my job is that I like my job as an EE...

bikezappa

The reason I posted in the first place was that I was shocked to see so few EEs graduating. There are students that will always go to college to basically get laid and get degrees in art and/or english who don't really care about earning a living with the degree. That's their decision. I may have misunderstood the data.

Learning a trade is good because you can work as hard as you want, start your own business, be more in control of your work, maybe.

Getting your little Bo Peep diploma. F zappa.

bikezappa

devani wrote: »

I find less students are interested in EE...I got my degree almost 10 years ago and saw less freshmens in EE....the pay is very low compared to other professions....the only reason that I stay with my job is that I like my job as an EE...

Why is EE pay low? Are there to many?

PhantomOG

Who say's its low? References? Everything I read in the recent past showed EE at or near the top along with Chemical Engineering. Show me some data please.

WSJ article

Bachelor's degree graduates in 2004-2005 from the University of Michigan College of Engineering received average annual starting salary offers in the following engineering disciplines:
# Aerospace: $53,471
# Chemical: $52,014
# Computer: $57,875
# Electrical: $54,922
# Industrial and operations: $49,874
# Mechanical: $52,165

I'm pretty sure it might have been higher when I graduated in '01 just before the high tech bust, but this isn't indicative of doom and gloom is it?

mhardy6647

Better to learn a trade.

Yup, absolutely true today; you'll make better money, faster.
And I say this as a PhD biochemist with 20 years of experience in analytical instrumentation and biotechnology!

I'd probably be retired now if I had learned to do automobile repair or HVAC (and I am not being facetious).

noimposse

I had a discussion with a Indian professor I had a few semesters back and he was telling my why countries like India and China are graduating so many engineers. It isnt because there are more people interested in engineering there, its because any trade that is taught outside of arts and history courses are ALL considered engineering.

Someone who repairs bicycles for a living would technically be considered a Bicycle Engineer and go to a trade school for it.

It essentially just seems like they are just padding those numbers by an obnoxious margin.

PhantomOG

More recent data:

National Association of Colleges and Employers Winter '07

Engineering graduates saw increases across the board and fared extremely well in this report. For example, the average offer to mechanical engineering graduates spiked 7.7 percent, bringing the average to these graduates to $54,587.

Similarly, chemical engineering majors saw their average offer rise 7.4 percent; it now stands at $60,054.

Civil engineering grads also saw a healthy increase in their average salary offer, which is up 4.8 percent over last year and bumps up to $47,145.

Electrical engineering graduates posted one of the "smaller" increases of the engineering disciplines—3.2 percent. Still, that brings their average starting salary up to $54,599.

So maybe it is sliding down comparitively within engineering. Not so much so that I would immediately attribute a decline in graduates to it.

And finding out that there are more sports-exercise majors than EE's is no shock to me. One's easy, one's hard. Is it supposed to be shocking?

daniel_paul_

bobman1235 wrote: »

Another side effect to the "everyone needs to go to college" mentality is that jobs that shouldn't even remotely require college degrees now do. Why does my receptionist need a college degree? So it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point; everyone's told they need a college degree to succeed, so every person offering a job gets the same idea and requires the useless college degree!

+1
My brother in law went for some sales job interview. He has about 5 years experience. He got in the door on a recommendation, but got booted out because he does not have a degree. They didn't care what degree, just a degree. And this what a low level job he shouldn't have taken anyway. Now he keeps telling me he needs to go back to school.:rolleyes:

daniel_paul_

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Yup, absolutely true today; you'll make better money, faster.
And I say this as a PhD biochemist with 20 years of experience in analytical instrumentation and biotechnology!

I'd probably be retired now if I had learned to do automobile repair or HVAC (and I am not being facetious).

Many of the guys in the field make more money. But on a cold, wet, winter day I am glad I got a desk job. Plus my back thanks me...my knees thank me...

Demiurge

daniel_paul_ wrote: »

Many of the guys in the field make more money. But on a cold, wet, winter day I am glad I got a desk job. Plus my back thanks me...my knees thank me...

Who engineered your talking back and knees? I want some.

daniel_paul_

Demiurge wrote: »

Who engineered your talking back and knees? I want some.

Technically it's only my right knee. My trick knee.

DarqueKnight

daniel_paul_ wrote: »

Many of the guys in the field make more money. But on a cold, wet, winter day I am glad I got a desk job. Plus my back thanks me...my knees thank me...

My father advised me and my sisters to decide what kind of lifestyle we wanted and then choose a career that would facilitate that lifestyle.

An engineering education has provided me with a very comfortable living without having to work very long hours (like physicians), having to do body breaking work (like professional athletes), having to be outside in hazardous environments (like some technicians), or having to be subject to the whims of management dictated workforce reductions,i.e. layoffs, (like trades people). Sure, engineers get laid off too, but who is in a better position to find a job after a layoff or plant closing: the engineer or some narrowly trained machine operator or field technician? Who is generally better positioned to move into some other career field?

I spent sixteen years in the turbulent telecommunications field with AT&T and Lucent Technologies. I witnessed many layoffs and plant closings. In that time, I never saw one engineer whose job was being phased out, with either AT&T or Lucent, who was not able to find another job elsewhere within the company or at some other company. Indeed, the company would go to great lengths to find jobs for engineers elsewhere within the company and even outside the company. The trades people, most of whom were very highly paid, got whatever consideration was negotiated by their union representation. Some were able to find comparable jobs. Many trades people took a severe reduction in their standard of living because their skill set was not transferrable to another location or another occupational field. Some trades people were unwilling or unable to learn something else, even though the company was paying for up to four years of college level or vocational retraining.

The main value of an engineering education, or any academically rigorous education, is the training in reasoning and problem solving. A good college education, in a substantial and rigorous field of study, provides the recipient with many more employment options than narrowly focused vocational training.