Someone explain this to me (about SVS subs)

wallstreet

All speakers have "stellar" online reviews. Keep looking and you'll find the "unstellar" review too. That's the beauty of the internet.

kuntasensei

furball wrote: »

Really? Older SVS subs are, "bad?"

But I thought all SVS subs have had stellar online reviews.

Not "bad". For their time, they were outstanding, and they'll still give you better HT sound than pretty much any consumer-grade sub you'll find in Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. But after the Plus series came out, the PCi/CSi series paled by comparison. As SVS have further developed their line, including going from TC Sounds woofers to their own custom-designed woofers, the product has improved.

For any company, you should expect improvements over time. That's why it is so disappointing that Polk has yet to address subwoofers for HT enthusiasts. I'm sorry, but a sub that rolls off at 30Hz is NOT a SUBwoofer.

PSOVLSK

dbaldus wrote: »

Alright! While that was very amusing, I'm glad that we're back on track. I think that a question of mine got lost in the shuffle somewhere during all of the entertainment, so I'm going to repost it:

"So when we say "HT", are we really just talking about things mixed in multi-channel that contain an LFE track? So gaming in DD or DTS would be considered HT as well?"

I'm just wondering this because I spend 50% of my time gaming on a PS3 or 360 and the other 50 split pretty evenly between 2ch music and movies.

Also, would $900 be a good price for a PB12-Plus/2 or should I try to find one for cheaper?

I'd pay $900 for a Plus/2, but I wouldn't sell mine for that:D

Where do you live? Maybe you are close enough to someone to stop by there place and listen to an SVS. Then you could better decide if it was worth $900 to you...because that's what really matters.

As far as music vs HT goes, your AVR may have bass management that allows you to have the sub "on" for HT, but "off" for 2 channel. I actually knew my AVR had this feature, but had never been able to get it to work until I adjusted the settings on the front panel instead of using the OSD.

And I would say that gaming could be considered HT.

If you live in the Pheonix area: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/hardware-sale-trade/268269-fs-svs-pb12-ultra-2-az.html no affiliation

dbaldus

I live in central Iowa (Des Moines area). I'm actually heading to this guy's place next weekend to give it a good listen before I decide whether or not to spend the cash or not.

Thanks for the info!

wallstreet

Depends on what type of music you listen to. If you like pipe organ, classical, or electronic music, then a "music" sub will certainly leave you wanting. Oh and BTW, my SVS sub is great for music and HT.

dbaldus

wallstreet wrote: »

Depends on what type of music you listen to. If you like pipe organ, classical, or electronic music, then a "music" sub will certainly leave you wanting. Oh and BTW, my SVS sub is great for music and HT.

I listen to a lot of industrial, electronic, classical, and metal. Favorites include Tool, NIN, Pink Floyd, The Mars Volta, DJ Tiesto, Daft Punk, Bach, Vivaldi, Iron Maiden, Meshuggah, Pantera, and Metallica (pre-Load days).

speakergeek

furball wrote: »

My friend is pretty knowledgeable about subs. And he is fairly *nal when it comes to placement, he has the whole setup, sound pressure level meter, test tone CD's, etc.

So I don't think placement is a factor. He went through the same placement procedure for both the SVS and the Hsu. The SVS just sounds bad, one note, no matter what he did. The SVS does hit low, but it has no definition. And that SVS is HUGE. My friend had no idea how big it was when it decided to buy it based on all the hype. Moving that SVS around his house has given him serious muscle strains. The Hsu, on the other hand, just sounds nice and clean, no matter where it is placed.

After this experience, my friend and I have serious doubts about this whole SVS hype.

Dude failed to set his sub up properly. If a sub is good with HT, it WILL be good with music if it is properly set up. The notion that at sub is only good for HT and not for music is incorrect. Sub placement is VERY important.

Gaara

speakergeek wrote: »

If a sub is good with HT, it WILL be good with music if it is properly set up. The notion that at sub is only good for HT and not for music is incorrect.

This is just one of those things that you have to experience to understand. If you have heard a musical sub you wouldn't think that. I own a PB2+ and don't use it for music.

speakergeek

Gaara wrote: »

This is just one of those things that you have to experience to understand. If you have heard a musical sub you wouldn't think that. I own a PB2+ and don't use it for music.

I own a PB13-Ultra and do use it for music and movies. That's just KHRAAAP.....
I does both with equal fervor...

Gaara

speakergeek wrote: »

I own a PB13-Ultra and do use it for music and movies. That's just KHRAAAP.....
I does both with equal fervor...

I guess ignorance is bliss. Just out of curiosity have you ever tried something like a Martin Logan, JL Audio, Rel, or maybe ACI? My first experience with a musical sub was a Rel, definitely eye opening.

Ron Temple

Haven't heard the Rel or JL, have heard several Velo DD series, ML Grotto, Depth and the ACI Maestro. The PB13Ultra is right there musically...needs to be harnessed abit, but it's extremely tight. There's been a few GTGs with the U13, Fathom, DD18 and Servo 15...most like the Fathom slightly better for music, but it's close...it's not close for HT. I'm not endorsing the PB12/2 as a music first sub, it's just a great all round performer, but not for dedicated 2 channel. Something smaller and defter would be my choice as well.

speakergeek

Gaara wrote: »

I guess ignorance is bliss. Just out of curiosity have you ever tried something like a Martin Logan, JL Audio, Rel, or maybe ACI? My first experience with a musical sub was a Rel, definitely eye opening.

It's not ignorance. I belong to the camp that says a good sub can do both...

Gaara

Ron Temple wrote: »

Haven't heard the Rel or JL, have heard several Velo DD series, ML Grotto, Depth and the ACI Maestro. The PB13Ultra is right there musically...needs to be harnessed abit, but it's extremely tight. There's been a few GTGs with the U13, Fathom, DD18 and Servo 15...most like the Fathom slightly better for music, but it's close...it's not close for HT. I'm not endorsing the PB12/2 as a music first sub, it's just a great all round performer, but not for dedicated 2 channel. Something smaller and defter would be my choice as well.

I stand corrected, I based my experience off my PB2+ and a few cylinder SVS' I have heard, and a Earthquake Supernova I own. I guess the PB13Ultra must be a different beast. None of the formentioned subs could match the Grotto I had for music, or the Gallos with their 2nd voice coil being amped.

dbaldus

Ron Temple wrote: »

I'm not endorsing the PB12/2 as a music first sub, it's just a great all round performer, but not for dedicated 2 channel. Something smaller and defter would be my choice as well.

What exactly do you mean by "dedicated" 2 channel? Meaning that I only listen to 2 ch music on it and nothing else at all? Because 2 ch listening will be 20-30% of my time, gaming and movies will be the rest.

Also, just out of curiosity, what WOULD you recommend for a smaller, defter sub for 2 ch music only?

dbaldus

Also, if the PB12-Plus/2 is too powerful for music, why can't you just turn it down?

Or do you just mean that if you are only buying it for music that you should buy something cheaper and smaller because the Plus/2 would be overkill/unnecessary?

PSOVLSK

dbaldus wrote: »

Also, if the PB12-Plus/2 is too powerful for music, why can't you just turn it down?

Or do you just mean that if you are only buying it for music that you should buy something cheaper and smaller because the Plus/2 would be overkill/unnecessary?

You could.

I think the answer to your second question is basically "yes", but maybe not necessarily cheaper.

The Plus/2 is not BAD musically, but as others with more knowledge/experience have stated, there are better subs for music. Granted I've never a heard a "musical" sub, but if only 20-30% of your use is for music, I just can't imagine you not being pleased with the Plus/2.

Think of it this way: Your main purpose is to have deep bass for HT/Gaming (70-80% usage). Everyone agrees that the Plus/2 is a beast in this area. Your secondary concern is for your music to sound good (20-30% usage). Some have stated that there are better subs for music, but most agree that the Plus/2 is good in this area. I think a Plus/2 would leave you unbelievably happy 70-80% of the time while leaving you satisfied the other 20-30% of the time.

Ron Temple

All SVS subs are clean and the Ed Mullen info goes a long way toward pointing you toward calibration to get the best result. The Plus platform sounds great. I never felt it lacked even against a Velo DD15 which was better musically, but overall the 20-39+ was just to great a value for my system at the time to switch. It all depends on your personal preferences. A Plus/2 will naturally excite room gain and pressurization. Some might feel this detracts from musical performance, though it can be mitigated. I've never heard a PB12/2, but owned dual Pluses and for a fact I miss them sometimes. I went with a single Ultra. No question it sounds better, but the Pluses never disappointed.

When I say I wouldn't recommend the Plus/2 for a 2 channel only application, it's because it hits harder and fuller than necessary for 95% of the music you throw at it. For 2 channel I rarely use my sub at all.

kingtut

dbaldus wrote: »

So I have heard numerous times that SVS subs are GREAT for HT, but typically lack in 2ch music. I'm confused about this statement... how can a sub that is great for HT (which I'm assuming means it reproduces low frequencies very well) be poor for music? If my crossovers for my mains are set to 80Hz, the sub will just have to reproduce the sub-80Hz frequencies for either music or HT, frequencies that I would refer to as "low", so I don't see what the difference is.

Can someone explain?

Since both companies have 30 days return policy, buy them both and test them out in your home. Keep the one you like more, and return the other one. Everyone has different taste. Both companies make good subs.

kuntasensei

kingtut wrote: »

Since both companies have 30 days return policy, buy them both and test them out in your home. Keep the one you like more, and return the other one. Everyone has different taste. Both companies make good subs.

Amen, brother!

shack

I... like EarlyB :eek:... prefer a sealed sub in a 2 channel setup. That said...I've heard some SVSs in 2 channel rigs that were EXCEPTIONALLY good. I would be willing to bet the farm that the people who had them were well beyond furball and his friend, in terms of audio knowledge. I've also heard HSUs that were good, REL and Velodyne too. They all make good subs that when set up "properly" by knowledgeable people will provide excellent results.

Fanboys...haters...both are tiresome.

Can't we all just hate Bose® together and get along.

NAH...on second thought...no need. :rolleyes:

doggie750

Ron Temple wrote: »

All SVS subs are clean and the Ed Mullen info goes a long way toward pointing you toward calibration to get the best result. The Plus platform sounds great. I never felt it lacked even against a Velo DD15 which was better musically, but overall the 20-39+ was just to great a value for my system at the time to switch. It all depends on your personal preferences. A Plus/2 will naturally excite room gain and pressurization. Some might feel this detracts from musical performance, though it can be mitigated. I've never heard a PB12/2, but owned dual Pluses and for a fact I miss them sometimes. I went with a single Ultra. No question it sounds better, but the Pluses never disappointed.

When I say I wouldn't recommend the Plus/2 for a 2 channel only application, it's because it hits harder and fuller than necessary for 95% of the music you throw at it. For 2 channel I rarely use my sub at all.

RON........you nailed it. HT usage & SVS = no problem w/ proper calib.
MUSIC & SVS = need to change the HT calib to
Music calib, must dial it in your own
pref. May need to seek advise from
SVS customer service. I usually dial
my gain to lower about -2b and pull
the plug out.

BRO: Same with Ron, for 2 channel I rarely use my sub at all.
if you have 2ch rig for music, separate sub isn't a factor/ not needed. Keep in mind, CD records quality are not always the same. BESIDES, I PREFER SACD/ DTS vs 2CH...........

kuntasensei wrote: »

Amen, brother!

WORD!!!!!!!!

furball

I will take your farm then.

And for your info, my friend's main stereo rig consists of a pair of B&W 802D's powered by a pair of Krell monoblocks. He has been in this audio hobby longer than I have been alive. He doesn't like the SVS for music playback. And I don't like the SVS for music playback. We both feel that the SVS plays sloppy and can't keep up with fast transient bass.

shack wrote: »

I would be willing to bet the farm that the people who had them were well beyond furball and his friend, in terms of audio knowledge.

Fanboys...haters...both are tiresome.

Can't we all just hate Bose® together and get along.

NAH...on second thought...no need. :rolleyes:

doggie750

furball wrote: »

I will take your farm then.

And for your info, my friend's main stereo rig consists of a pair of B&W 802D's powered by a pair of Krell monoblocks. He has been in this audio hobby longer than I have been alive. He doesn't like the SVS for music playback. And I don't like the SVS for music playback. We both feel that the SVS plays sloppy and can't keep up with fast transient bass.

do not under estimate the GURUs in this forum, they will eat you alive even at your sleep. More GURUs vs one GURU, your friend..........I dont need to explain......:cool:

tonyb

I wouldn't even use a sub with 802d's.Besides,if he has those speakers and wants a sub,plenty of other subs out there.Or something is amiss if you can't get decent bass from those speakers.Gotta say though,if I had those speakers and Krell mono's,why would he go for a svs sub?

shack

furball wrote:

I will take your farm then.

And for your info, my friend's main stereo rig consists of a pair of B&W 802D's powered by a pair of Krell monoblocks. He has been in this audio hobby longer than I have been alive. He doesn't like the SVS for music playback. And I don't like the SVS for music playback. We both feel that the SVS plays sloppy and can't keep up with fast transient bass.

The systems I heard the SVSs on would easily surpass that setup. And the amount of "audiophile" gear owned by the individuals is "extensive" and over a very long period of time. And most of all...I heard the SVSs and they were execllent...with all types of music. Not necessarily what I would use, but excellent nonetheless. Maybe you and your friend need to learn how to set them up properly.

I'll keep the farm.

furball

The SVS is setup in his HT setup, not his stereo setup.

tonyb wrote: »

I wouldn't even use a sub with 802d's.Besides,if he has those speakers and wants a sub,plenty of other subs out there.Or something is amiss if you can't get decent bass from those speakers.Gotta say though,if I had those speakers and Krell mono's,why would he go for a svs sub?

kuntasensei

If you thought the PCi had slow muddy response, you really should hear something from their Plus or Ultra series, especially since they started getting custom woofers made instead of using the TC Sounds woofers. Seems like that would have made a better pairing to B&W speakers.

But hey, if you didn't like the sound, you didn't like the sound.

furball

Please do not misrepresent what I said.

I said my friend was meticulous when it comes to placement. He tried all sorts of placement with both the Velodyne and the SVS. The Velodyne sounds great regardless of where it is placed. The SVS just sounds sloppy no matter where he placed it.

Keiko wrote: »

You don't think placement is a factor?

Sherardp

furball wrote: »

Please do not misrepresent what I said.

I said my friend was meticulous when it comes to placement. He tried all sorts of placement with both the Velodyne and the SVS. The Velodyne sounds great regardless of where it is placed. The SVS just sounds sloppy no matter where he placed it.

1st time Ive ever heard "sloppy" define the sound of SVS.

Face

Maybe something was wrong with his SVS. I heard one last week and it was anything but sloppy.