Someone explain this to me (about SVS subs)

dbaldus

So I have heard numerous times that SVS subs are GREAT for HT, but typically lack in 2ch music. I'm confused about this statement... how can a sub that is great for HT (which I'm assuming means it reproduces low frequencies very well) be poor for music? If my crossovers for my mains are set to 80Hz, the sub will just have to reproduce the sub-80Hz frequencies for either music or HT, frequencies that I would refer to as "low", so I don't see what the difference is.

Can someone explain?

AndyGwis

Some people equate a good HT sub with loud db at low frequencies. So, a sub that can hit 85db at 19hz is really good for HT, plain and simple.

Supposedly, music isn't all about loud and low. So, people will usually prefer a subwoofer than is very fast to one that digs super low. Also, musicality is put into consideration when discussing 2-channel.

That's about all I know. I think my Mirage Omni S-12 is great for HT and would be great for 2-channel as well. People just make a distinction between HT and 2-channel subs so they can justify buying multiple of the same thing.

Kapacitor

dbaldus wrote: »

So I have heard numerous times that SVS subs are GREAT for HT, but typically lack in 2ch music. I'm confused about this statement... how can a sub that is great for HT (which I'm assuming means it reproduces low frequencies very well) be poor for music? If my crossovers for my mains are set to 80Hz, the sub will just have to reproduce the sub-80Hz frequencies for either music or HT, frequencies that I would refer to as "low", so I don't see what the difference is.

Can someone explain?

The SVS Ultra Cylinder subs have Foam tuning slugs.
You place these in the ports to tune the sub.
Many so called "Musical subs" are actually NOT tuned real low in frequency.
When these subs get placed near a room boundary, they become "just right" as the boundary fills in and flattens the intentionally rolled off response.
The SVS sub is the real deal, in that it is tuned LOW, and had a LOT of excursion.
It can be boomy and un musical if not adjusted or EQ'd properly/
But with proper EQ, it can be very musical, and a total house mover on home theatre as well.
Without building some custom subs, the SVS Ultra, or a pair of them is about the best money can buy.
You will neeed a dedicated amp/crossover, but a pair of them will have all your neighbors talking, and your audio buddies envious.
The HSU Research subs are great too.
My freind has a pair of HSU subs, and he EQ's them for music.
They blend seamlessy with Magnepan MG 20.1's, NOT an easy feat.
And on home theatre they are practically untouchable, and will demolish a room until the Big Maggies cry out for mercy!

dbaldus

Kapacitor wrote: »

l.
Without building some custom subs, the SVS Ultra, or a pair of them is about the best money can buy.
You will neeed a dedicated amp/crossover, but a pair of them will have all your neighbors talking, and your audio buddies envious.

How about the PB12-Plus/2? Would that work well for music and HT?

And as far as having a dedicated amp/crossover... I have a H/K 247 with a pre-out for the sub. Is that what you mean or do I need something else?

dbaldus

AndyGwis wrote: »

Some people equate a good HT sub with loud db at low frequencies. So, a sub that can hit 85db at 19hz is really good for HT, plain and simple.

Supposedly, music isn't all about loud and low. So, people will usually prefer a subwoofer than is very fast to one that digs super low. Also, musicality is put into consideration when discussing 2-channel.

That's about all I know. I think my Mirage Omni S-12 is great for HT and would be great for 2-channel as well. People just make a distinction between HT and 2-channel subs so they can justify buying multiple of the same thing.

So are SVS subs typically "slow"?

m00npie

dbaldus wrote: »

How about the PB12-Plus/2? Would that work well for music and HT?

And as far as having a dedicated amp/crossover... I have a H/K 247 with a pre-out for the sub. Is that what you mean or do I need something else?

My Plus2 works GREAT for HT and fine for an integrated 2-channel in my HT rig, but to answer your question, placement and tuning is everything. I don't think I would use it on my dedicated 2-channel rig.

dbaldus

m00npie wrote: »

My Plus2 works GREAT for HT and fine for an integrated 2-channel in my HT rig, but to answer your question, placement and tuning is everything. I don't think I would use it on my dedicated 2-channel rig.

I'm confused by your terms here (sorry, maybe I'm still a noob...) - what do you mean by integrated 2-channel and dedicated 2-channel? I just have a 247 that I will run multichannel games and movies on and then use 2 channel on the 247 when listening to music, so am I dedicated or integrated.

And do I have everything needed to run the sub (meaning just the pre-out on the 247)?

m00npie

Yes, you have everything you need on your AVR. You'll run a single RCA cable from your AVR Sub Pre-out to one of the sub inputs. It doesn’t matter which. That's it, except for setup of course.

I have 2 pre-amps in my HT rig. One is for 2-channel and has an HT bypass feature that allows me to use one amp for the speakers. The other is a Denon AVR. The Dedicated 2-channel system is a separate setup altogether in a separate room. This is used for music only and no HT.

dbaldus

m00npie wrote: »

Yes, you have everything you need on your AVR. You'll run a single RCA cable from your AVR Sub Pre-out to one of the sub inputs. It doesn’t matter which. That's it, except for setup of course.

I have 2 pre-amps in my HT rig. One is for 2-channel and has an HT bypass feature that allows me to use one amp for the speakers. The other is a Denon AVR. The Dedicated 2-channel system is a separate setup altogether in a separate room. This is used for music only and no HT.

So would you just not use your SVS in the separate room for music because you would rather use it for HT in the other room, or do you not like how the music sounds when using the SVS? If so, what don't you like about it?

m00npie

dbaldus wrote: »

So would you just not use your SVS in the separate room for music because you would rather use it for HT in the other room, or do you not like how the music sounds when using the SVS? If so, what don't you like about it?

Take this as my opinion and nothing more. The SVS would be complete overkill in my 2-channel setup since my office is just under 200 Sq.ft. and I get a decent amount of bass from my LSi7’s. I just need a tad more. I would like to try the SVS SB series sub that is much smaller.

For your purposes, the SB series may be too small for your HT setup. Again, try it out since SVS has a no questions asked return policy and the PB12\Plus2 will not be around forever since I believe they have discontinued them. Of course, you can always buy them on the used market.

As for how it sounds in my HT rig, I go back and forth on having it on and off. I get a good amount of bass from my LSi15’s so it’s really not needed. Not only that, I get a hint of where the bass is coming from when playing music and that just annoys me.

For just plain HT, the SVS is simply amazing!

Sherardp

+1 with Moonpie, try it out. I run dual Plus 2s and music sounds great. Definitely worth a shot.

dbaldus

Would $900 be a good price for the PB12-Plus/2 if I were to pick it up?

PSOVLSK

dbaldus wrote: »

Would $900 be a good price for the PB12-Plus/2 if I were to pick it up?

I paid $1000 for a used one two years ago and it's the best money I've ever spent on my HT. I may have stated this before on the forum, but if someone told me I had to get rid of all my HT except one piece of equipment, the SVS would stay put. You just have to hear, or should I say feel one to understand.

My opinion is that there are better subs for music, but the SVS is by no means bad...just not the best.

dbaldus

PSOVLSK wrote: »

I paid $1000 for a used one two years ago and it's the best money I've ever spent on my HT. I may have stated this before on the forum, but if someone told me I had to get rid of all my HT except one piece of equipment, the SVS would stay put. You just have to hear, or should I say feel one to understand.

My opinion is that there are better subs for music, but the SVS is by no means bad...just not the best.

Are you in any way disappointed by the SVS in terms of 2-channel music?

How is it for multi-channel music (SACDs and such)?

DollarDave

Kapacitor wrote: »

The SVS Ultra Cylinder subs have Foam tuning slugs.
You place these in the ports to tune the sub.
Many so called "Musical subs" are actually NOT tuned real low in frequency.
When these subs get placed near a room boundary, they become "just right" as the boundary fills in and flattens the intentionally rolled off response.
The SVS sub is the real deal, in that it is tuned LOW, and had a LOT of excursion.
It can be boomy and un musical if not adjusted or EQ'd properly/
But with proper EQ, it can be very musical, and a total house mover on home theatre as well.
Without building some custom subs, the SVS Ultra, or a pair of them is about the best money can buy.
You will neeed a dedicated amp/crossover, but a pair of them will have all your neighbors talking, and your audio buddies envious.
The HSU Research subs are great too.
My freind has a pair of HSU subs, and he EQ's them for music.
They blend seamlessy with Magnepan MG 20.1's, NOT an easy feat.
And on home theatre they are practically untouchable, and will demolish a room until the Big Maggies cry out for mercy!

Why was this guy banned today? What did I miss? Travel one stinking day and miss the fun?

PSOVLSK

I believe I saw this quote on the Polk forum and it is so true: "Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know."

This could very well explain me with my system:D 1)I'm driving my LSi 15's with an amp less than 200wpc (and I think they sound great). 2)I have Bose 301 for surround speakers :eek:(and I've made several upgrades to the system without replacing them:eek::eek:). 3)I think the SVS is really good for music. No experience with SACD's, but I love watching music concert DVD's (Eagles, Pink Floyd, Rush, U2) in DD or DTS. I think they sound incredible.

So basically, I guess I would have to hear a really musical sub to know that the SVS isn't very musical.

Early B.

dbaldus wrote: »

So I have heard numerous times that SVS subs are GREAT for HT, but typically lack in 2ch music. I'm confused about this statement... how can a sub that is great for HT (which I'm assuming means it reproduces low frequencies very well) be poor for music?

Can someone explain?

An HT sub and a music sub serve two different purposes. For HT, you want loud, low, powerful bass. Hell, you want the freakin' walls to shake, and usually for that kind of experience, you're gonna get some distortion or boomy sounding bass. "One note bass" is fine because for HT it's OK to have some distortion with your bomb blasts and earthquakes.

For music, the sound quality of the bass is primary, not the visceral impact as in HT. For music, you want to hear every nuance in the lower registers, and it typically takes a different design for a sub to do that.

SVS generally markets their subs for HT. Usually, a sub will perform better for HT or music, but not both. Of course, everything in audio is subject to your personal tastes.

wingnut4772

dbaldus wrote: »

How about the PB12-Plus/2? Would that work well for music and HT?

And as far as having a dedicated amp/crossover... I have a H/K 247 with a pre-out for the sub. Is that what you mean or do I need something else?

dbaldus wrote: »

Are you in any way disappointed by the SVS in terms of 2-channel music?

How is it for multi-channel music (SACDs and such)?

In my experience the PB12 Plus/2 is excellent for HT but so so for music. It's just overkill and hamhanded for serious or even semi serious 2 channel listening. It is a bit slow and more suited to serious HT slam. For music, I think I would prefer a sealed sub. I have only heard one - a Von Schweikert , but I was impressed with the tightness. speed and seamlessness.

Early B.

Yeah, for music, I prefer a sealed sub or a sub with a passive radiator. IMO, my VMPS would probably be better suited for music. It's got a tight **** for HT, but I prefer big **** bass with deep pockets of cellulite.

There are lots of "musical subs" out there to choose from, and many of them are very affordable.

The amp is the key ingredient. Typical plate amps are cheaply made and suck for music. Plate amps aren't used on your front speakers, so why skimp on a bass speaker? That's why my choice for music and movies would be dual 15" passive subs (with 2 drivers each - one active and one passive) powered by a decent 2-channel amp with on-board crossover adjustments. Maybe someday I'll do it.

dbaldus

Early B. wrote: »

It's got a tight **** for HT, but I prefer big **** bass with deep pockets of cellulite.

Hahaha... thats awesome.

Sherardp

^ +1 My thoughts exactly, awesome analogy.

On another note the OP mentioned gaming, movies, etc and the PLus/2 will put him right in the middle of WAR especially in CoD4.

dbaldus

Sherardp wrote: »

^ +1 My thoughts exactly, awesome analogy.

On another note the OP mentioned gaming, movies, etc and the PLus/2 will put him right in the middle of WAR especially in CoD4.

I can't wait

So when we say "HT", are we really just talking about things mixed in multi-channel that contain an LFE track? So gaming in DD or DTS would be considered HT as well?

kuntasensei

I've never understood the whole "music" vs. "HT" thing. Accurate, fast bass is accurate, fast bass, and the SVS subs deliver that. They also troll deep enough to deliver the subsonics required for HT.

That said, I'm running a SVS 20-39CS+, one port plugged, running off a Samson 1,000w rackmount amp. I've loved the sound of it since I got it years ago, even with music, but... I recently upgraded my receiver to the Onkyo 705 which has Audyssey's MultEQ XT. I had been EQ'ing my sub for relatively flat response with an ART-351 EQ, but after running MultEQ XT and getting a seriously ruler flat response, the SVS has sounded a little better with music.

So my point is that I think a lot of a sub's subjective "sound" as far as HT vs. music is more a matter of setup, and really good subwoofer setup requires some really specific placement and tweaking. And even that is kinda' subjective, like the whole warm/neutral thing you hear about amps. With some careful setup, a Plus/2 will sound absolutely brilliant.

mark090852

dbaldus wrote: »

So I have heard numerous times that SVS subs are GREAT for HT, but typically lack in 2ch music. I'm confused about this statement... how can a sub that is great for HT (which I'm assuming means it reproduces low frequencies very well) be poor for music? If my crossovers for my mains are set to 80Hz, the sub will just have to reproduce the sub-80Hz frequencies for either music or HT, frequencies that I would refer to as "low", so I don't see what the difference is.

Can someone explain?

It depends on which SVS sub you are talking about. Here's an interesting read from over at the AVS forum.

Comparison of SVS Ultra 12 to new Ultra 13

furball

A friend of mine actually has a big box SVS, and he also has a Hsu sub.

The SVS is not okay for HT use. But he and I both prefer the Hsu sub. With the Hsu sub producing better lows with better definition. The SVS just sounds bloated, one note.

For music, the Hsu is definitely better. Another friend of mine has a Velodyne SPL 1000R. There is no comparison between the Velodyne and the SVS. The SVS just sound TERRIBLE for music, bloated, slow, one note, it just makes the music lose all definition.

The friend who bought into this whole SVS sub now really regrets his purchase. He is trying to get it rid of it.

jakelm

furball wrote: »

A friend of mine actually has a big box SVS, and he also has a Hsu sub.

The SVS is not okay for HT use. But he and I both prefer the Hsu sub. With the Hsu sub producing better lows with better definition. The SVS just sounds bloated, one note.

For music, the Hsu is definitely better. Another friend of mine has a Velodyne SPL 1000R. There is no comparison between the Velodyne and the SVS. The SVS just sound TERRIBLE for music, bloated, slow, one note, it just makes the music lose all definition.

The friend who bought into this whole SVS sub now really regrets his purchase. He is trying to get it rid of it.

I'll pm you with my addy to give to him. I'll take the burden of taking it off his hands.

Ron Temple

Any sub can sound like **** if not calibrated correctly or has few placement options in a tough room. I've heard several Hsu subs and many SVS and Velo subs. The SVS and Hsus are more similar than different with the nod to the SVS for visceral impact and the nod to the Hsu for upper bass linearity...it's not night and day...both can sound exceptional. The sealed Velos just keep getting better as good HT subs and outstanding accurate musical subs, but even the DD18 is now exceeded by the Ultra13.
The bar has been raised since mid to late 07 with designs by eD, Epik, SVS and now the AV123 MFW15. They all take up a ton of floor space, but these ported subs are extremely musical, vary from fugly to pretty and are absolute monsters for HT. Hsu has got a new offering coming that supposed to be special sometime this spring...so does Velo.

wingnut4772

furball wrote: »

A friend of mine actually has a big box SVS, and he also has a Hsu sub.

The SVS is not okay for HT use. But he and I both prefer the Hsu sub. With the Hsu sub producing better lows with better definition. The SVS just sounds bloated, one note.

For music, the Hsu is definitely better. Another friend of mine has a Velodyne SPL 1000R. There is no comparison between the Velodyne and the SVS. The SVS just sound TERRIBLE for music, bloated, slow, one note, it just makes the music lose all definition.

The friend who bought into this whole SVS sub now really regrets his purchase. He is trying to get it rid of it.

Oh well since you said it twice I was obviously mistaken.:rolleyes:

furball

My friend is pretty knowledgeable about subs. And he is fairly *nal when it comes to placement, he has the whole setup, sound pressure level meter, test tone CD's, etc.

So I don't think placement is a factor. He went through the same placement procedure for both the SVS and the Hsu. The SVS just sounds bad, one note, no matter what he did. The SVS does hit low, but it has no definition. And that SVS is HUGE. My friend had no idea how big it was when it decided to buy it based on all the hype. Moving that SVS around his house has given him serious muscle strains. The Hsu, on the other hand, just sounds nice and clean, no matter where it is placed.

After this experience, my friend and I have serious doubts about this whole SVS hype.

Ron Temple wrote: »

Any sub can sound like **** if not calibrated correctly or has few placement options in a tough room.

wingnut4772

furball wrote: »

My friend is pretty knowledgeable about subs. And he is fairly *nal when it comes to placement, he has the whole setup, sound pressure level meter, test tone CD's, etc.

So I don't think placement is a factor. He went through the same placement procedure for both the SVS and the Hsu. The SVS just sounds bad, one note, no matter what he did. The SVS does hit low, but it has no definition. And that SVS is HUGE. My friend had no idea how big it was when it decided to buy it based on all the hype. Moving that SVS around his house has given him serious muscle strains. The Hsu, on the other hand, just sounds nice and clean, no matter where it is placed.

After this experience, my friend and I have serious doubts about this whole SVS hype.

Oh no need to explain You are right and I am wrong. All this time I thought my Dual SVS subs kicked a$$ I guess I really just had no clue. Please carry on. I am learning so much.

furball

What's up with this attitude dude?

You are entitled to your opinion.

And I am entitled to my opinion.

And my friend is entitled to his opinion.

Just because you like something, doesn't mean everyone else has to like it too.

Peace dude.