Little ol' question about tubes, that's all.

dorokusai

blah blah blah

RuSsMaN

All I can see is PacMan chomping across the Clubpolk screen, with that vintage sound.

Waka waka waka waka

F1nut

I'll see your waka and blah, and raise you 10 poo nuggets.

dorokusai

I'm flexible enough to give myself head. Waka waka that.

reeltrouble1

dorokusai wrote: »

blah blah blah

exactly. and might I add blah blah blah. Does anyone just listen to the music????

RT1

Yashu

Actually, the main sound difference boils down to even (tube) or odd (SS) order harmonics.

Yes... that was only part of my point. You are not going to hear these differences until you stress the output device. A good Transistor or Tube is going to have a *very* similar plot with a similar (class A) design. The differences appear when you are overdriving the device. Many tube amps use this to advantage by running them hot. You go through tubes faster, but it sounds better and you get more power. Transistors, aside from the crossover distortion, are the same way, except they do not overdrive the same way as tubes... the thing is, a class A transistor design is going to sound very good, about as good as a class A tube design, that is... until you overdrive. Most transistor stereo amps are seldom run this way because of the reason you talk about... but tube amps are often run "hot"... and the effect can be used to an advantage in guitar amps where you want the overdrive to sound good... there are plenty of transistor guitar amps with overdriving circuits, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as a tube amp.

DSP has allowed some amps to mimic the even order harmonics of a tube amp, but still...

In hifi, every tiny thing matters... so even if there is a .01% chance of the amp getting close to that limit, tubes are going to sound better... warmer, and since many designers purposefully run their amps hot to begin with, they sound pleasent. This is why THD is not a good metric when looking for an amp, or it shouldn't be the only one. A class a transistor amp with a low THD still may run into a situation where it is going to output some odd order harmonics... the thing is, .01% of that kind of distortion is going to be much more fatiguing on your ears than 1% of THD from a tube amp.

I was trying to say that a properly designed circuit with output that is well within the "safe" range of a tube or a transistor, is going to sound very similar, except for what I described as the "chaos" factor. You are taking electrical energy and passing from one plate to another through a vacuum. You aren't doing that with a transistor. I like tubes because I feel that music should be reporduced by an instrument... a tube, to me, is an instrument. Just making one is an artform, and the process by which they work is elegant, where a semiconductor inside a transistor has very rigid design and constraints. SS can sound wonderful, but part of the allure of tubes is the idea that what you are hearing has passed through an instrument that relies on the complexity, yet elegant simplicity of the universe around us to amplify music. There is more to it than just even order harmonics.

reeltrouble1

RuSsMaN wrote: »

All I can see is PacMan chomping across the Clubpolk screen, with that vintage sound.

Waka waka waka waka

So release the virtual byte chompers upon the stench and be done with it.

RT1

heiney9

Yashu wrote: »

Yes... that was only part of my point. You are not going to hear these differences until you stress the output device. A good Transistor or Tube is going to have a *very* similar plot with a similar (class A) design. The differences appear when you are overdriving the device. Many tube amps use this to advantage by running them hot. You go through tubes faster, but it sounds better and you get more power. Transistors, aside from the crossover distortion, are the same way, except they do not overdrive the same way as tubes... the thing is, a class A transistor design is going to sound very good, about as good as a class A tube design, that is... until you overdrive. Most transistor stereo amps are seldom run this way because of the reason you talk about... but tube amps are often run "hot"... and the effect can be used to an advantage in guitar amps where you want the overdrive to sound good... there are plenty of transistor guitar amps with overdriving circuits, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as a tube amp.

DSP has allowed some amps to mimic the even order harmonics of a tube amp, but still...

In hifi, every tiny thing matters... so even if there is a .01% chance of the amp getting close to that limit, tubes are going to sound better... warmer, and since many designers purposefully run their amps hot to begin with, they sound pleasent. This is why THD is not a good metric when looking for an amp, or it shouldn't be the only one. A class a transistor amp with a low THD still may run into a situation where it is going to output some odd order harmonics... the thing is, .01% of that kind of distortion is going to be much more fatiguing on your ears than 1% of THD from a tube amp.

I was trying to say that a properly designed circuit with output that is well within the "safe" range of a tube or a transistor, is going to sound very similar, except for what I described as the "chaos" factor. You are taking electrical energy and passing from one plate to another through a vacuum. You aren't doing that with a transistor. I like tubes because I feel that music should be reporduced by an instrument... a tube, to me, is an instrument. Just making one is an artform, and the process by which they work is elegant, where a semiconductor inside a transistor has very rigid design and constraints. SS can sound wonderful, but part of the allure of tubes is the idea that what you are hearing has passed through an instrument that relies on the complexity, yet elegant simplicity of the universe around us to amplify music. There is more to it than just even order harmonics.

You know, I'm not really into tubes in my system but your first few sentences just don't equate. Tubes and transistors sound very different from the very first note not, as you say, only when they are stressed. Tubes certainly have more pleasing clipping characteristics but that's not *just* the only difference. I have stated that a well designed class A topology can sound "tube like" but there will never be any mistaking one for the other.

Tubes and transistors are different and in turn that difference produces a different kind of sound from the very beginning. Gasoline engines and diesel engines are designed to do relatively the same function however, they both have a different means to an end. Thats the way I see tubes and transistors, neither one is correct but they are fundamentally different and to try and convince that they are similar is short sighted.

There is also much more to music reproduction than the output devices used but they do seem to have a large impact on the final sound of said component.

H9

P.s. I could care less how they plot, measure or what they look like on paper. The sound my ears hear is what matters. They may plot similar but they don't sound the same regardless of how they measure

ShinAce

It's always nice to know exactly what it is you are hearing.

reeltrouble1

sand castles and kazoo's are harsh.

even order for hearing

odd number for seeing

seems like somebody made it this way on purpose

Thank you Lord. Bless my tubes and my sand.

Amen.

dorokusai

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Does anyone just listen to the music????

RT1

No. They say they do but it's usually to validate a new purchase.

heiney9

.....damn internets.....double post

heiney9

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Does anyone just listen to the music????

RT1

No we analyze the music. Listening is optional.

H9

Yashu

I have stated that a well designed class A topology can sound "tube like" but there will never be any mistaking one for the other.

I never disagreed. I think you missed the huge load of words that I dedicated towards the differences in the ways that tubes function. I said, and I will say again... TUBES RELY ON THE CHAOS OF THE UNIVERSE TO AMPLIFY YOUR SOUND. YOU ARE SENDING POWER THROUGH A VACUUM FROM ONE PLATE TO ANOTHER BETWEEN YET ANOTHER, ALL SUBJECT TO THE PHYSICAL LAWS AND UNPREDICTABILITY OF THE UNIVERSE AROUND US. large power tubes use even more "space", and so are going to be even more subject to quantum and physical properties and limitations. Because of this inherent, and unavoidable random chaos introduced into the function, the harder they are to match... multi-tube amps, you are paying just as much for the tubes as you are the labor and materials in many cases. Music is chaotic, or more specifically, music is produced by instruments subject to the same constraints. It's no wonder tubes sound so good to the ear. The music may be a reproduction, but it is one by instruments just as complex as what were used to originally create it in the first place. It is fitting that music should be reproduced in this fashion...

Aaahem... as I was saying, a tube and transistor circuit not driven to overdrive are going to sound similar, but the way both devices work is completely different. One is very predictable, one is resting on the unpredictability of the world around us, or what I call chaos. The element of chaos is what sets tubes apart and makes them great for music. Tubes are closer to an instrument, an art, than transistors. I think they are perfect for music, because music is order from chaos. What sets music apart from noise? Order.

heiney9

Yashu wrote: »

I never disagreed. I think you missed the huge load of words that I dedicated towards the differences in the ways that tubes function. I said, and I will say again... TUBES RELY ON THE CHAOS OF THE UNIVERSE TO AMPLIFY YOUR SOUND. YOU ARE SENDING POWER THROUGH A VACUUM FROM ONE PLATE TO ANOTHER BETWEEN YET ANOTHER, ALL SUBJECT TO THE PHYSICAL LAWS AND UNPREDICTABILITY OF THE UNIVERSE AROUND US. large power tubes use even more "space", and so are going to be even more subject to quantum and physical properties and limitations. Because of this inherent, and unavoidable random chaos introduced into the function, the harder they are to match... multi-tube amps, you are paying just as much for the tubes as you are the labor and materials in many cases. Music is chaotic, or more specifically, music is produced by instruments subject to the same constraints. It's no wonder tubes sound so good to the ear. The music may be a reproduction, but it is one by instruments just as complex as what were used to originally create it in the first place. It is fitting that music should be reproduced in this fashion...

Aaahem... as I was saying, a tube and transistor circuit not driven to overdrive are going to sound similar, but the way both devices work is completely different. One is very predictable, one is resting on the unpredictability of the world around us, or what I call chaos. The element of chaos is what sets tubes apart and makes them great for music. Tubes are closer to an instrument, an art, than transistors. I think they are perfect for music, because music is order from chaos. What sets music apart from noise? Order.

I read it all but you contradicted the first few sentences of your original post later on in the post (at least that's how I read it). I still don't agree that both will sound all that similar until they are overdriven but it may just be degrees of similarity we are quibbling about. If that were the case we would all be running tubes and then making sure we didn't overdrive them or visa versa running all transistors and making sure never to overdrive them. I mean they are similar in sound ???.

I just don't agree they sound all that similar to each other regardless how they are driven.

H9

ShinAce

They do sound similar in the proper configuration and with enough negative feedback(but we're talking about a specific application).

mhardy6647

The signal to noise ratio in this thread is poor, so I enter with some trepidation, but I would like to offer one morsel.

Vacuum tubes (specifically, triodes) are extremely linear amplification devices. Transistors are inherently very nonlinear. Amplifier designers exploit the former case, and work around the latter case.

reeltrouble1

dorokusai wrote: »

No. They say they do but it's usually to validate a new purchase.

waaaaaaaaaaaaa, yes, I purchased this disc to hear the inordinate first order harmonics causal relationship to the fundamental of the root tone as understood by taking its square on a tangent line to the original frequency wave form.

Or--The knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, these bones will rise again.

RT1

ShinAce

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

waaaaaaaaaaaaa, yes, I purchased this disc to hear the inordinate first order harmonics causal relationship to the fundamental of the root tone as understood by taking its square on a tangent line to the original frequency wave form.

Or--The knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, these bones will rise again.

RT1

LMAO!

treitz3

So, before this thread gets deleted.....

Do posts #3 and #4 actually answer my original questions? It seems as if after 3 pages, these are the only two posts that address the topic of the thread.

treitz3 wrote: »

I just stepped into the realm of tubes and I have noticed that there are many tubes that are wanted, but are no longer made.

Why is this?

It would seem to me that if a particular product was good for a particular purpose I]and is in high demand[/I, that the manufactures of tubes would start up the production again. If tubes are the choice of many an audiophile, then the selection of new and sonically improved tubes should be readily available I]one would think[/I.

Am I mislead / thinking off track?

Talk to me. Tell me your thoughts.

These were my questions. Any input on this topic is welcome.

Also, where do the high end manufacturers get their tubes from for new equipment? Are those tubes worth a damn?

ShinAce

For most applications, sand has replaced the vacuum. Can you imagine a vacuum tube computer, or iPod?

It's like saying, why don't they make quality furniture anymore? Aren't there trees still being cut?

Quality furniture made of solid wood can be found, it's just not nearly as common anymore.

madmax

treitz3 wrote: »

So, before this thread gets deleted.....

Do posts #3 and #4 actually answer my original questions? It seems as if after 3 pages, these are the only two posts that address the topic of the thread.

Right on que.

treitz3

madmax wrote: »

Right on que.

Roger on that. Thanks.

Y'all can have fun with this thread now. Treitz3, over and out.

reeltrouble1

Tom,

The "coveted" tubes are just as subjective as all the other "I hear this" things you read about. I have rolled a number of tubes through gear and have sent tubes to other members for evaluation, frankly my experience has been that the differences between tubes of one manufacturer or another are small.

Example, the Telefunken smooth plates I use in my Dodd are highly sought after and NOS can be around 400 per quad or even more, the Sovtek LPS that are shipped with unit sound amazing with very little difference to the Telefunken and cost around 50 bucks for a quad. I have read that since tubes have passed their hayday for use in electronic devices that the ones being made today are not as good, hype or truth? likely some of both.

Antony M. at MF hard wires his tubes to the boards as he despises audiophiles who do tube roll, Victor K. at BAT has defined the 6h30 supertube to be used in his gear whenever he builds a special edition piece, Audio Illusions uses a gear specific tube. Believe me you will find ample tubes available which sound terriffic outside the "holy grails" that audiophiles covet.

ok I am out of breath as that is long winded.

RT1

Yashu

but it may just be degrees of similarity we are quibbling about.

I am pretty sure this is what is going on... I didn't mean to sound insulting.

I just know that fets and tubes can sound similar when used correctly... they overdrive entirely different, and that is mostly due to how insanely different they are built. I love tubes, but transistors have changed the world forever. Tubes will be missed by far less people... although discrete poer transistors are harder to get... the good ones anyway. Everything these days is integrated.

heiney9

Sorry Tom for the off topic discussion. Until recently last 7-10 years the interest in tube operated anything was almost non existent. Many of the original tube factories went out of business partly because of lack of demand and partly due to the cost of operating such a production factory at much less than full capacity.

Of late there is enough of a resurgence in tube powered audio equipment that some manufacturer's are finding a profit, albeit a small one, to start producing vintage type tubes again on a smaller scale. NOS vintage tubes will give you the best vintage sound if that's your bag, but the re manufactured tubes, while very good, can't totally re create the sound of old vintage tubes but can come pretty damn close.

It's also my understanding that most tubes supplied by manufacturer's are somewhat mediocre and are just good enough to get one started in tubes and tube rolling. There are exceptions as always and in the current market with the flooding of Chinese tube gear some equipment is more show than go.

That's my take on what I understand about the current tube market.

H9

Yashu

I have rolled some tubes before... and I prefer the chinese tubes over the NOS, I have tried GE, Mullard, WE(I think), Raytheon, some other brands I can't remember, and while the quality was top notch, I actually preferred the sound of the chinese tubes I got stock with the gear. I liked the softer top end, I liked the warmer sound, but what I didn't like was the fact that you can only leave them on 24/7 for about 6 months before they begin to die. After that point, they pop and fizzle for about the first couple hours of being on, and eventually they just sound like crap. I am not even talking about power tubes, I am talking about line output buffer tubes that aren't used for a ton of gain. These aren't run hot, they should last for an extremely long time, but they don't.

If the chinese could get their QA up to snuff, I would have no problem putting their tubes in anything from a little output buffer all the way to big 300B, EL34, KT88, and so on poweramps. The last thing I want to do is have to replace tubes all the time, and if I have an amp that needs to be manually biased, that would drive me nuts.

candyliquor35m

This thread was quite enlightening and explains somewhat the many subtle or extreme differences of likes and dislikes and opinions of all the factors involved in this hobby.

Specifically if tubes introduce a certain amount of distortion into the equation thus giving the source a warmer sounding end result then some are going to like that sound and others that are used to and/or prefer a very precise, clear and detailed sound may think tubes sound like crap.

And it's not just tubes but every piece of gear and cable and ic all change the sound of the end result in some way or another with distortion or clarity or enhancing/diminishing the highs and/or lows.

It's similar or exactly what the engineer that mixed the recording did with his/her mixer, reverb, equalizer, synthesizer, etc to achieve the sound they wanted on the final mix that was released to the world only we are doing it with our gear and accessories instead of a mixer board and accessories.

Edit: I now see why some people like russian or chinese tubes instead of telefunkens or mullards. Telefunkens and mullards distort and synthesize the sound more than most other tubes imo and some peoples ears and brain are going to like that sound and some aren't.

RuSsMaN

candyliquor35m wrote: »

Edit: I now see why some people like russian or chinese tubes instead of telefunkens or mullards. Telefunkens and mullards distort and synthesize the sound more than most other tubes ....

Says who, you?

Cheers,
Russ

candyliquor35m

RuSsMaN wrote: »

Says who, you?

Cheers,
Russ

"imo" but I guess the only the only way to know for sure is to do a triple blind comparison between a live acoustic event with no electronics involved versus a tube component broadcast of the same event using chinese/russian tubes versus a tube component broadcast of the same event using telefunken/mullard tubes to see which tubes most accurately reproduce the live event.