Little ol' question about tubes, that's all.

treitz3

I just stepped into the realm of tubes and I have noticed that there are many tubes that are wanted, but are no longer made.

Why is this?

It would seem to me that if a particular product was good for a particular purpose I]and is in high demand[/I, that the manufactures of tubes would start up the production again. If tubes are the choice of many an audiophile, then the selection of new and sonically improved tubes should be readily available I]one would think[/I.

Am I mislead / thinking off track?

Talk to me. Tell me your thoughts.

lightman1

Shut yer piehole,Tom!

hoosier21

total guess here, demand for tubes died a long time ago, mfg die off also.

Now we crazy audio dorks want them and nobody makes them

sucks2beme

treitz3 wrote: »

I just stepped into the realm of tubes and I have noticed that there are many tubes that are wanted, but are no longer made.

Why is this?

It would seem to me that if a particular product was good for a particular purpose I]and is in high demand[/I, that the manufactures of tubes would start up the production again. If tubes are the choice of many an audiophile, then the selection of new and sonically improved tubes should be readily available I]one would think[/I.

Am I mislead / thinking off track?

Talk to me. Tell me your thoughts.

The tube companies are ramping up. The old Russian factories almost went under
because of mob pressure. But they seem to have pulled out of their nosedive. The
problem is the new production is not up to snuff, and it's doubtful there will ever be
enough demand for R&D to re-create the classic tube quality of the past.
The industry was huge in the 40's through the 60's, but right now there really
aren't that many electronic items that use them. A few audio buffs and
guitar players don't really make for a big market. I see an improvement,
but they won't ever reach NOS levels again. Let's hope they prove me wrong.

Ricardo

Tubes? What's that? I am tubeless and love it; I've had my share of tubed preamps, CDP's, pnono stages and amps, and don't miss them at all. SS all the way here, and I know that the sound will be always the same, always good. No more decisions to which tube is better, no more wondering if I am crazy or the sound actually was better yesterday, no more microphonics, no more tube hiss.....and I can leave all the gear on without burning the tubes.

Will I have more tubes sometime? Sure, but as I said, I don't miss them a bit

treitz3

You don't miss the fluidity, smoothness, warmth, texture and [something I can't put my finger on yet] sound?

The "I can't put my finger on part" is increased depth and perception of the sound stage, placement of instruments relative to the listening position, slight improvement of stereo separation and vocals being more believable, accurate in reproduction and detail within.

To me, it's a different sound but one that blows SS away. BTW, my first tube gear is the front end.

F1nut

[something I can't put my finger on yet]

It's called even order harmonics.

treitz3

Whatever it is, I like it.

Systems

Long Live Tubes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ricardo

treitz3 wrote: »

You don't miss the fluidity, smoothness, warmth, texture and [something I can't put my finger on yet] sound?

No; My SS system has fluidity, smoothness, warmth and texture. I never heard cellos and saxophones sound like this (liquid, palpable..)

My finger, that I put somewhere else

dorokusai

Tubes are great but overrated. There is stellar SS out there, you just haven't heard it.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, tubes are wonderful and you should experience them but don't forget that there is alot more audio in the world....not everything needs a tube in it to sound good.

reeltrouble1

Typical Club Polk counter trend establishment which seems par for how we roll now.

Tubes I like. Certainly do not feel they are overrated but then what does that really mean??

Jessica Simpson is overrated, yea right.

RT1

madmax

The 300b tube made a comeback (as well as many others) and is now being produced by several companies. That tells me the best of the best will be produced when enough people want them bad enough.

F1nut

Rollin' rollin' rollin, keep them tubes a rollin'.

Fireman32

Tubes Rule!!!!!!

Yashu

Class A SS should sound similar to tubes until clipping...

Other designs... tubes may sound *worse* or better... it depends. It is a lot easier to match transistors than it is to match tubes, but transistors also are a lot harder to cross over from + to - and get a smooth waveform.

Basically... it comes down to it being easier to design powerful SS amps with pretty good accuracy, but very expensive to get it "right". Tube designs have been proven for decades...

You know... technically tube amps should be cheaper to design and build than SS. They should sound better in some configurations, but it is harder to use multiple tubes only because it is harder to match them. If you bought a 300B tube amp, you are paying something like $700 per 300B for the real stuff, and still quite a bit for the modern versions. Tube amps cost as much as they do because it costs a lot for the tubes and even more to get matched sets.

It does not cost very much for transistors and they are very easy to find matched sets, relatively speaking, and transistor designs have come a very long way... but the interesting thing is, you are going to see with SS what you are seeing with tubes soon. They aren't making very many discrete output transistors like they used to... with everything going integrated.

I think both a SS and a Tube amp can sound great... I hope that there is enough interest in these to keep the components alive for years to come, lest some major innovation comes around, not sure one will... I want tubes though. I am a CRT holdout for both TV and Computer (it is getting harder and harder to find good 21" CRT computer monitors), and I have tubes in my audio system, with plans for a full tube poweramp as well.

heiney9

Yashu wrote: »

Class A SS should sound similar to tubes until clipping...

I'm not a tube-o-phile but there are very few SS amps that can replicate tubes. There are some that are noted to be "tube like" but none that I know of sound similar enough to replicate the entire tube sound.

I realize you stated "similar" and I agree there are a handful of affordable SS designs that could be described as similar but those still leave a lot of the coveted tube sound to be desired.

Personally, I prefer SS to tubes and I wouldn't want a SS amp that exactly replicates a tube sound. I prefer the SS amps that have "some" tube like qualities.

Aleph 30 or Monarchy SM70 comes to mind.

H9

Yashu

I agree... A lot of the tube sound is from overdriving the tubes slightly. Like the 300B tube, it is used beyond it's original design spec... it was originally for the phone company to boost gain, but we use it in amps, and many times the tubes are run a little hotter to get that warm sound. I mean... if we were to use the tube (300B) like the phone company intended we wouldn't get very much gain.

Class A transistors should, at least, not have the distortion of having to cross over, so it is one less thing to separate it from the function of tubes, but it still is not going to overdrive nearly the same, but within it's functional range, a class A SS amp is going to sound great, but part of what makes tubes sound so good, is the element of chaos. All that energy travelling between those plates in a vacuum... I mean, you are getting into quantum mechanics there. Sound is order from chaos.

Music Joe

I've always thought of all things subjectively lovely as chaos lite

hearingimpared

Four words:

Tube preamp, Sand amp

'nuff said.

F1nut

Yashu wrote: »

I agree... A lot of the tube sound is from overdriving the tubes slightly.

Actually, the main sound difference boils down to even (tube) or odd (SS) order harmonics.

heiney9

hearingimpared wrote: »

Four words:

Tube preamp, Sand amp

'nuff said.

Not 'nuff.........SS pre, SS amp, Tube Dac.

now 'nuff said

H9

Ricardo

hearingimpared wrote: »

Four words:

Tube preamp, Sand amp

'nuff said.

This is true; you can find a very sweet sound with this combination....but it is not a perfect match 100% of the time.....quoting somebody that knows about this a lot more than I do:

"On a side note, 12AX7 designs like the SP-16 are really weak at driving
low impedance loads like the input stages of transistor power
amplifiers, so the opamp based preamp has a definite advantage in that
respect. This would definitely explain why your instruments sound more
real and have more body. Tubes interface best with tubes. Designs
using the new 6H30 or older designs with paralleled 6922's like the
SP-10 really make up for the high output impedances of a tube preamp."

This was in response to a comment I made of better sound when I tried the Bel Canto Pre2, compared to the Audio Research SP16. Again, I have no idea of what all those words mean.....but I do know that I liked it better, and even better now with the SS Belles 28A pre.

Food for thought?

madmax

Ricardo wrote: »

"On a side note, 12AX7 designs like the SP-16 are really weak at driving
low impedance loads like the input stages of transistor power
amplifiers, so the opamp based preamp has a definite advantage in that
respect.

Thats odd, I was under the impression transistor amplifiers had high impedance inputs.
madmax

dorokusai

hearingimpared wrote: »

Four words:

Tube preamp, Sand amp

'nuff said.

I hate to say it but I agree.

RuSsMaN

It has little to do with tubes, solid state or otherwise. It's about system synergy and knowing your sound, then finding the right combination of gear (lovingly tweaked) to give it to you.

treitz3

RuSsMaN wrote: »

It has little to do with tubes, solid state or otherwise. It's about system synergy and knowing your sound, then finding the right combination of gear (lovingly tweaked) to give it to you.

I have system synergy out the ying-yang. Tube source, SS pre, tube emulated sound for the upper frequencies with an SS for the lower frequencies. The Rega Apollo did a great job with sound, but the synergy with my rig didn't quite get me to where I wanted to be.

The tube source isn't as forward, which allows for a deeper sound stage in my pretty small [12'x14'] listening room. The placement of certain instruments/singers now seem to me more spread out and with the slightly improved stereo separation on my already pinpointed imagery really makes the playback experience a pleasure. Live music sounds like you are really there.

One thing I noticed right off the bat was that the upper most "ping" of the highest frequencies were tamed down a bit [less revealing, if you will] but the detail and texture with voices and a lot of the instruments sound absolutely fantastic.

So yeah, for me.....I have almost achieved "my sound" [yeah right :rolleyes: ]. I have my thoughts on maybe a Dodd tubed pre, as opposed to my SS pre to finish the sound off. We'll see where that takes me, but for now I can say that I'm really diggin' this tubed source. This is why I posed my original question, as I will now be exploring more tubes into the mix.

hearingimpared

heiney9 wrote: »

Not 'nuff.........SS pre, SS amp, Tube Dac.

now 'nuff said

H9

not, not 'nuff said,

(Tube CDP)
(Turntable, SS phono pre)
(SACD/DVD-A, tube buffer)
(Tube pre)

(SS amp)

Simple algebra!!!:D

hearingimpared

dorokusai wrote: »

I hate to say it but I agree.

Shouting while clutching chest . . . Phyllisann call 911 I have chest pains!!!:D:D:D

hearingimpared

RuSsMaN wrote: »

It has little to do with tubes, solid state or otherwise. It's about system synergy and knowing your sound, then finding the right combination of gear (lovingly tweaked) to give it to you.

I agree with that too.

I tried a VTL TL 5.5 preamp (a pretty highly regarded pre but with 12AX7s & 12AU7s) with sands amps I was using and there was absolutely NO synergy! It sounded weak, lifeless and thin in the bass. I rolled in much better tubes with not much more improvement.

I took its little brother the VTL TL 2.5 line stage (6922 tubes) with the same sand amps and the synergy was breathtaking.

That combo and hearing a really good integrated hybrid amp is what sold me on tube pre/sand amp.

treitz3

dorokusai wrote: »

Tubes are great but overrated. There is stellar SS out there, you just haven't heard it.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, tubes are wonderful and you should experience them but don't forget that there is alot more audio in the world....not everything needs a tube in it to sound good.

As far as tubes go in my rig, I'm only interested in 3. That being a pre, source and possibly a tubed phono pre. I value my SS amps for what they do and I have no interest whatsoever in introducing tubes there.