Little ol' question about tubes, that's all.
Comments
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Some companies still make em, but don't expect military spec.
http://www.greenstoneusa.com/ is one example. -
Why can't they make tubes sound as good as SS?"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Thank you Shin Ace. I can add that to my list.
http://stores.ebay.ca/SaleRCS [Ron Sheldon]
http://www.tubedata.org/
http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/tubesaleslist.html
http://www.tubedepot.com/
http://www.thetubestore.com/
https://secure.tubesandmore.com/
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/
http://www.vintagetubeservices.com/Default.htm
http://www.tubesdirect.com/
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/
http://members.aol.com/etetubes/
And more.....
http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/tubesaleslist.html
www.tubeseller.com
http://www.electron-tubes.com/
http://www.house-of-tubes.com/home/hot_home.asp
http://www.tubeworld.com/indexv_high.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/tubes.htm
http://www.tube-shop.com/
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/
http://www.vacuumtube.com/
http://www.valves.uk.com/ [UK site]
http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/
http://www.vacuumtubes.com/price7.html
http://www.r-vac.com/tubes.htm
And tube tweak links
http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/
http://www.thetubestore.com/tuberings.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiog...AGES/PEARL.htm [Pearl Tube Coolers]
http://www.vintagetubeservices.com/Dampers.htm
http://www.jenalabs.com/ [Tube Cryo-ing service - JenaLabs]
http://tubeman.com/ [Tube Cryo-ing service]~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Haha. I appreciate SS as well as tubes. Just as I appreciate SACD and vinyl. Both have their attributes as well as shortcomings, but I can appreciate all of them and accept them for what they are and for what they can offer.pearsall001 wrote: »Why can't they make tubes sound as good as SS?
You wouldn't by chance be trying to stir the pot would you? Naw, I didn't think so.........:rolleyes:
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Haha. I appreciate SS as well as tubes. Just as I appreciate SACD and vinyl. Both have their attributes as well as shortcomings, but I can appreciate all of them and accept them for what they are and for what they can offer.
You wouldn't by chance be trying to stir the pot would you? Naw, I didn't think so.........:rolleyes:
Who me!!!!
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
The question should be worded the other way around. Why can't they make SS sound as good as tubes?
The truth is that SS is more accurate. However, the distortion produced by each is not the same. Tubes produce mainly even order harmonics(2nd, 4th, 6th order, etc...). Solid state produces odd order harmonics that are not natural sounding.
Field effect transistors approach tube like distortion(mainly even order harmonics) and therefore tubes should never be required unless you are trying to produce distortion on purpose.
At any rate, there is a good quantity of vacuum tube equipment that sounds just fine and therefore should not be disregarded.
Also, note that tubes are higher voltage devices, and therefore are dangerous to work with and require expensive transformers(emphasis on the plural here). -
The question should be worded the other way around. Why can't they make SS sound as good as tubes?
The truth is that SS is more accurate. However, the distortion produced by each is not the same. Tubes produce mainly even order harmonics(2nd, 4th, 6th order, etc...). Solid state produces odd order harmonics that are not natural sounding.
Field effect transistors approach tube like distortion(mainly even order harmonics) and therefore tubes should never be required unless you are trying to produce distortion on purpose.
At any rate, there is a good quantity of vacuum tube equipment that sounds just fine and therefore should not be disregarded.
Also, note that tubes are higher voltage devices, and therefore are dangerous to work with and require expensive transformers(emphasis on the plural here).
It all depends on who's ears are doing the listening as to which one sounds better."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
OMG! You mean to tell me it's subjective? :eek:pearsall001 wrote: »It all depends on who's ears are doing the listening as to which one sounds better.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
However, the distortion produced by each is not the same. Tubes produce mainly even order harmonics(2nd, 4th, 6th order, etc...). Solid state produces odd order harmonics that are not natural sounding.
Exactly what I've been saying.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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True but only if it is single ended,If the amp has a push pull output stage then much of the even order harmonics are cancelled just like in an SS unit.Likewise a single ended SS amp(rare) will have lots of even order HD.Tubes produce mainly even order harmonics(2nd, 4th, 6th order, etc...).Testing
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A very good point. If we get too specific, we'll be discussing negative feedback with the quickness. Please, let's not and just pretend we did.
There are more factors than just distortion. Tubes are transconductance amplifiers, IIRC, and therefore operate on a slightly different principal than solid state. Tubes have very high impedance input(similar to FETs) and can tolerate a short circuit on the output. I've only designed amps using transistors and a three stage Lin topology. Your standard class B amp. A few class A headphone amps have been experimented with. I wish I had experience testing tube amps to get a better feel for how they work.
A SS amp with nothing connected to the speaker outputs is not too dangerous. The same is not true for tubes.
Like mentionned many times before, it's the distortion that they produce that gives them a 'warm' sound. This can be emulated. The low damping factor is not to be emulated.
Let's not forget a glowing tube looks cool.
Back to tube bashing for a moment here. They only come in one 'polarity', let's say NPN. They have a limited lifetime. They are expensive.
At the end of the day, whatever sounds best to you is fine.
My ears say that tubes are fantastic for guitar amps. For reference listening, I use a solid state amp and headphones(so boring).
Another thing to look at would be the impedance matching between tube outputs and electrostatic speakers. That might just be a match made in heaven. -
Could you please fill us in a little bit more? I'm running two amps [both SS]. Would this hold the same for low end frequencies as well as high end frequencies?True but only if it is single ended,If the amp has a push pull output stage then much of the even order harmonics are cancelled just like in an SS unit.Likewise a single ended SS amp(rare) will have lots of even order HD.
Linky please to learn more about this comment?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
First off, ain't nobody said this hobby was cheap. As for your first statement? 10,000 hours may be limited, but that's a long time. If you roll tubes and switch out equipment like some of us do...........They have a limited lifetime. They are expensive.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Distortion will always be higher at higher frequencies,but in a push pull output stage even order harmonics will be cancelled over the whole range.Would this hold the same for low end frequencies as well as high end frequencies?
google is your friend. Try push pull vs single ended output stages.
Linky please to learn more about this comment?Testing
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Is this trustworthy, or is it like the Roger-Russel link?
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/vaughn/downloads/SE-v-PP-Part1.pdf~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
yep looks very good.Is this trustworthy,
Who is this cat?or is it like the Roger-Russel link?
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The "I can't put my finger on part" is increased depth and perception of the sound stage, placement of instruments relative to the listening position, slight improvement of stereo separation and vocals being more believable, accurate in reproduction and detail within.
I read some stuff that made it sound like speakers can produce sound differences like that, but electronics can't unless they do something to change the time and phase of the signal. So if the tube sound is caused by slight harmonic distortion, I don't see how it could change the spatial characteristics of the sound. Maybe it does it indirectly and the harmonic distortion changes the spatial distribution of the sound, if that's what really causes the tube versus regular sound. -
Linky please to learn more about this comment?
You could crack a book or two you know....? There are alot of great books on amplifier design, tube amplifier design, etc.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Thanks and you don't want to know.Who is this cat?
Mark, how 'bout a suggestion of a good one. This hobby is expensive enough without buying books that are bogus. Any trusted source?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Here is good read on single ended operation but using MOSFET's.I built one of these little things 10 years or so ago,and while it sounded excellent 10 watts just was'nt enough. http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/zenamp.pdfTesting
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That bad eh.:DThanks and you don't want to know.
Here is as good as they get. http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/books/book.htmAny trusted source?Testing
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Thanks and you don't want to know.
Mark, how 'bout a suggestion of a good one. This hobby is expensive enough without buying books that are bogus. Any trusted source?
Email me your addy and I'll send a couple worth reading. Just take care of them and wear rubber gloves if you're not wearing pants.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
I'm a little miffed, even though I don't buy into everything I read on the web. If tube sound causes distortion as you mentioned, then why does the sound stage improve?Road Runner wrote: »I read some stuff that made it sound like speakers can produce sound differences like that, but electronics can't unless they do something to change the time and phase of the signal. So if the tube sound is caused by slight harmonic distortion, I don't see how it could change the spatial characteristics of the sound.
Distortion = better sound stage?
I really don't give a rat's **** about the electrical part [though curious]. All I am concerned about is the end result as to what hits my ears. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Thanks . PM on the way........~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I think this sums it up pretty well.
"In reality, measurements are fine and can help you. But
we have the finest measurement devices available on the
two sides of our head: our EARS, and are not they fantastic?
Well, use them and rely on them."
I still think PP tube amps have enough even order harmonics or whatever that they sound wonderful and have a completely different sound than SS amps.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If tube sound causes distortion as you mentioned, then why does the sound stage improve?
Distortion = better sound stage?
I really don't know. That's just me talking. I'm still trying to figure out what the tube effect is. If the tube sound is different from the solid-state sound, and it's not a difference in frequency response or phase, then it seems that either tubes or solid state should have higher fidelity and if solid state has higher fidelity, then the tube sound is some sort of pleasing effect, but it's lower fidelity. -
Agreed.I think this sums it up pretty well."In reality, measurements are fine and can help you. But
we have the finest measurement devices available on the
two sides of our head: our EARS, and are not they fantastic?
Well, use them and rely on them."Testing
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"Well, use them and rely on them."
I do everyday of my life.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I should add to my comments above that SS has it's place and in fact, my reference rig uses a SS amp with a tube pre and tube output source. The other rig uses a tube amp, tube output source and at this time, a SS pre, soon to be a tubed pre. Both have a sound that I like, but are different. Bottom line IMO, you have to have tubes in the mix.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I don't know how tubes do in terms of bandwidth, but they are used in radio applications as amplifiers. I imagine they can do high frequencies just fine.
There are phase differences when using any amp. Remember that tubes will be matched by transformer, a suspect for phase angles.
The usable lifetime of a speaker is generally 20 years. The same is true of many amps. If we assume 4 hours a day of use, that's almost 30,000 hrs during its lifetime. That comes out to 3 sets of tubes versus 1 set of transistors. A notable difference.
