Why I Don't Watch The News...

tonyb

Kudo's Troy...pretty much spanked that one out of the park.

SKsolutions

Troy,

You make some points, but if we continue in the manner that we have, the middle class that is now supporting our country, will become the working poor. That will be the legacy that we leave to the next generation and those that follow. We've already shackled them with a senseless Trillion dollar debt. It has to stop, and we take the hit now, or a worse one later.

For your reference, I work when I want, pay my taxes, SS (over 30%), and health insurance out of pocket. I'm not poor, I'm not rich although I've been close to both. I stepped off the treadmill 5 years ago, and won't be counting on any social security or other government benefits.

TroyD wrote: »

"if the government is the primary provider of a service or product....that's 'socialism'."

One: Who schools most of our children. . . handles every piece of our mail? They do one out of two well.


Two: I'm all for reducing the tax burden and keeping choices, and not looking for benevolence in government, just some performance 'for the people'. If there was parity in the tax code, the Majority would receive tax breaks. Warren Buffet is taxed at less than half of what I pay? WTF is that. It's the golden rule. Those with the gold rule. I'm not even talking about those that make 200-300K per year, but those in the stratosphere that don't even know what they make/have. That burden is not even.

TroyD wrote: »

The underlying theme behind government benevolance is that people are too stupid to take care of themselves. I find that insulting. I think that people are far more resourceful than governments give them credit for. However, dependancy is what governments NEED to grow

Three: I'm not worried about being insulted by government benevolence. I don't think any mature government is benevolent by choice, but only through fear of what it's citizen will do. Our government has no fear, and acts only in it's own best interest with impunity. We are insulted every day with cronie capitalism and government spending. The true insult comes in April. With reforms to the tax, health, political et al, systems, there will be less need for the bureaucrat and filling positions that have little or no function. It's the Ronco system. Set it and forget it. Trim and streamline. Simplify. If you look at the US gov and many of it's employees as a business model, it/they would not survive in a competitive environment.
It's also hard to be resourceful when you can't even get medical attention. It's humans we are talking about.

TroyD wrote: »

I don't see what makes the middle class working to support a government any more noble than working for a private enterprise. Working for the private sector has a lot more lucrative options than working for the gov't (I can write you a book on this).

Four: Idon't understand what you are trying to illustrate. The point here is that there is a greater burden placed on those trying to get ahead/by, than that placed on the uber-riche. Most Americans are working themselves to an early grave. Both parents working 60-70 hours a week, and then family time and errands, etc. That's not living. Even if you WIN, you lose. Get sick and you've changed jobs, and your HMO tells you to pound sand because it's preexisting. . . and you didn't homestead your house. . . .early Death is not a vacation, thanks.

TroyD wrote: »

Take a look at that list. How many of them depend, primarily, on the US as the primary guarantor (sp) of the safety, security and freedoms that they enjoy? I don't mean this in a jingoistic manner but most of those on the list, were it not for US intervention and continuing support...would NOT be enjoying the standard of living that they have.

Five: Good point. The climate has changed. So, the jig is up. I don't think that anyone in the Pentagon, or out of it, has a global comprehension on what the hell is going on anymore. We continue to do what we have done for the past 50 years despite the fact that little of it works anymore. We are now playing checkers on a hop-scotch court and still yet the machine moves forward. We should be taking care of business at home.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. There is just an alternate view. Somewhere in the middle may lie the answer, but you need to be able to see both ends of the spectrum to decide where that middle is.

SKsolutions

Sorry to Wingnut for ho'in the thread.

TroyD

I don't take it as confrontational at all....I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me and, frankly, wouldn't want them too. If we all saw things the same way not only is that boring, but it's dangerous.

The notion that the working class is paying all the taxes is a myth...now we all know that numbers can be skewed but the ones I saw said that the top 5% of wage earners (above 200K, IIRC) paid over 80% of the tax burden.

In regards to the middle class, the middle class is it's own worst enemy. Far too many are locked into trying to maintain lifestyles that they can't afford. That's one of the things that's driving the housing problem. People are making bad choices and living above thier means. Plain and simple.

The national debt. That's a good point. Take a look at the Federal Budget. For every dollar spent on defense, we are spending, IIRC, 3 on social/entitlement spending. The growth of entitlement spending, in this day and age, is what is bankrupting our government.

Ok, re the tax code. Even IF Warren Buffet's tax RATE is lower than yours...do you REALLY think that he pays less real dollars in taxes? That's silly. The fact is, the uber rich....will NEVER feel the pinch like you and I do. But, to say that they aren't paying thier fair share, empirically, just isn't so. Also consider, that Warren Buffet's money, invested, creates more wealth which creates more jobs which creates more taxayers which creates more tax revenue. Here's a little note: Trickle down economics or supply side economics WORK. In the 1980's under Reaganomics, federal tax receipts TRIPLED (again, I'm doing this off the cuff and I may be wrong about precise figures but the underlying theme is fundamentally true). The problem was that Congress spent all of it and more.

Three: I'm not worried about being insulted by government benevolence. I don't think any mature government is benevolent by choice, but only through fear of what it's citizen will do. Our government has no fear, and acts only in it's own best interest with impunity. We are insulted every day with cronie capitalism and government spending.

I don't mean to be flip, but I'm having a hard time following this one. Fear of what it's citizens might do? That's what drives the actions of a Communist regime. In a free society, there is no reason to for the government to 'fear' the citizens? We can agree to disagree but capitalism is the basis of the most free, most liberated society on the planet. I do NOT subscribe to a government controlled society and economy. THEY scare me. Again, look at the USSR.

As far as what's coming in April? I'm lost again.

. The point here is that there is a greater burden placed on those trying to get ahead/by, than that placed on the uber-riche

Again, this is simply not true. People are not LOCKED into thier station in life. Also, the rich, how do you think they got that way? Somewhere along the way...the took some risks, exercised some initiative and kicked ****. Why should they be penalized for that? I say bully for them. It motivates and inspires me. I believe people are far more capable than they think. If you want to be rich, go out and do it. Go out an get what your worth. What we don't need is for someone to stick a finger in your face and say you can't do it. HEAR THIS: EFF THAT **** TOO. Losers always whine about doing thier best. Winners go home an pork the prom queen.

Lastly, the world is STILL a dangerous place. You may think that what I alluded to as far as those countries go is an antiquated notion. I submit to you that the world is STILL a dangerous place. Ask Kuwait. Russia is still a threat. You know, all those countries are doing well and so forth but let's just say that Russia decides at some point to reclaim some real estate...just who do you think is going to do the heavy lifting?

BDT

SKsolutions

TroyD wrote: »

The notion that the working class is paying all the taxes is a myth...now we all know that numbers can be skewed but the ones I saw said that the top 5% of wage earners (above 200K, IIRC) paid over 80% of the tax burden.

Fiscal Year 2005 Gross Adjusted Income as reported by IRS
Middle class and above (around 100K) pays 70% of the total tax burden.
Upper class and above (around 360K) Pays 39% of the total tax burden.

I consider 100K to 150K to really be middle class if you have have kids, at least in my neck of the woods, and they call that top 10% Heres a link

If you look at the percentage drop from 70% to 39%, and take into account the lower and higher ends of the spectrum, you can see the curve. Top and bottom pay little to nothing. They may on paper, but you won't ever see them writing a check to the gov. It's become an industry unto itself deciphering the tax code and finding the loopholes and shelters. The cost for this needless industry is estimated at 200 Billion, about 1/3 of the Defense Budget.

TroyD wrote: »

In regards to the middle class, the middle class is it's own worst enemy. Far too many are locked into trying to maintain lifestyles that they can't afford. That's one of the things that's driving the housing problem. People are making bad choices and living above thier means. Plain and simple.

I agree, and most are living on their equity lines to keep up with the Jones', but that has little to do with how they are taxed.

TroyD wrote: »

The national debt. That's a good point. Take a look at the Federal Budget. For every dollar spent on defense, we are spending, IIRC, 3 on social/entitlement spending. The growth of entitlement spending, in this day and age, is what is bankrupting our government.

Defense spending (at least what is openly reported), and Social Spending are actually very close in dollar amounts, around 570B, and 680B. Also, included in the (Social Spending) Health and Human Services are the CDC, NIH, which would be better grouped in the defense budget, and the FDA. It also includes research other than the military bug doctors, on Cancer, Aids, diabetes, Parkinsons, etc. Some of that research spins off to the BioTechs, as the Defense spins off to the private sector as well. Social security is not a budget item, as it's not even a real account, nor is it budgeted. It's spent as fast as it comes in, and not on benefits. I'll never see it.

What is really bankrupting our country is the interest payment on our 9+ Trillion dollar debt, and the overspending that put us there. The payment is almost the same as the entire Defense budget (around 650 Billion)

TroyD wrote: »

Ok, re the tax code. Even IF Warren Buffet's tax RATE is lower than yours...do you REALLY think that he pays less real dollars in taxes? That's silly. The fact is, the uber rich....will NEVER feel the pinch like you and I do. But, to say that they aren't paying thier fair share, empirically, just isn't so. Also consider, that Warren Buffet's money, invested, creates more wealth which creates more jobs which creates more taxayers which creates more tax revenue. Here's a little note: Trickle down economics or supply side economics WORK. In the 1980's under Reaganomics, federal tax receipts TRIPLED (again, I'm doing this off the cuff and I may be wrong about precise figures but the underlying theme is fundamentally true). The problem was that Congress spent all of it and more.

As is Congress today at the urging of Bush. There is more than one way to look at this, but if you eliminate the tax code, the loopholes, and the IRS, there is 200-300 Billion dollars saved, and there are models that will stimulate the enconomy and promote business. that with a Constitutional Amendment for a mandatory balance budget except in time of war would eliminate most of the problem no matter who's in the white house. Ronco Tax Code! Set it. . . .
The Fair Tax and the Retail Tax are promising.

TroyD wrote: »

I don't mean to be flip, but I'm having a hard time following this one. Fear of what it's citizens might do?

Flip away! (in the direction of the white house please0 Any government that does not fear it's people, acts only in the interest of itself and gaining more power. Period.

TroyD wrote: »

Again, this is simply not true. People are not LOCKED into thier station in life. Losers always whine about doing thier best. Winners go home an pork the prom queen.

I think I already stated that I've been close to both ends of the spectrum, and I'm not whining about where I am. I work part time, do very well, invest here and there and should retire at 55 on my own terms and . . the Prom queen says "hi".

TroyD wrote: »

Lastly, the world is STILL a dangerous place. . . . ?

If we were not the Worlds' Jehovah Witnesses, knocking on everyones door, trying to save the world when it didn't want to be bothered, we wouldn't be as hated or be the big fat target we've become. You'd get a paid Holiday. We need to leave it alone, and regroup. It's time to fix things here, pay the equity line, and get on with it.

audiobliss

Holy crap. $100k - 150k is middle class?

I guess I should go stand on the street corner with a sign, then! :eek:

hearingimpared

audiobliss wrote: »

Holy crap. $100k - 150k is middle class?

I guess I should go stand on the street corner with a sign, then! :eek:

Na that is just the Boston area. Hell in a big city like Philadelphia that $150K is high end. New York City's middle class is much higher.

TroyD

Ok, first of all....if you are trying to drum up sympathy from me for folks making 100K a year as poor and downtrodden....sorry, that just doesn't wash with me. People, especially at that income level, have options. However, if you take a look at your numbers...even you own curve tells you that 150K a year is NOT middle class. I forget what the nat'l median income is but it's roughly a third of that and probably less. So you numbers don't jive.

Look at another way....the folks making 360K plus are paying 39% of the tax.....what percentage of the population is making 360K a year? I'd wager less than 5%. You are making my argument for me except we don't agree what constitutes middle class.

A flat tax will never pass. Ever. Forget it. For a number of reasons....the biggest is that it's a regressive tax. Let me explain, if you tax everyone accross the board at, say, 15 percent.....who gets screwed? The people at the low end of the spectrum. The get it dutch-door actually. One, they ain't paying 15 percent now (in many cases they pay none or actually profit) and on a percentage basis you can make the argument that it's inherently unfair to tax a homeless person at the same rate that Bill Gates pays. You can't have that argument both ways. When Bush proposed an accross the board roll back in tax rates, the left went batshit because that meant the rich would get more back in return. Now, I'm not saying that I don't think a flat tax has merit, but it won't fly. Ever.

Now, do the rich exploit the tax laws? Sure, why not? I mean, if it's legal....then why shouldn't they? It's THIER money. It's not the governments. It's not yours and it ain't mine...who are we to tell someone else what they MUST do with thier money?

Lastly, and I've used this anecdote over and over. If you try and put the bite on the rich....the little guy is the one that pays. How so? Luxury yacht tax. Years ago, someone had the bright idea to soak the rich by charging an exorbitant tax on luxury yachts. You guessed it, they stopped buying yachts. So who actually took it in the keister? They guys who WEREN'T rich that built boats, maintained boats etc etc. It didn't affect the rich put it put a world of hurt on some folks who really couldn't afford it.

BDT

nms

Lastly, and I've used this anecdote over and over. If you try and put the bite on the rich....the little guy is the one that pays. How so? Luxury yacht tax. Years ago, someone had the bright idea to soak the rich by charging an exorbitant tax on luxury yachts. You guessed it, they stopped buying yachts. So who actually took it in the keister? They guys who WEREN'T rich that built boats, maintained boats etc etc. It didn't affect the rich put it put a world of hurt on some folks who really couldn't afford it.

I know nothing about tax code, but there may be a way around that: classify the yacht as a second home. You have to spend a certain percentage of the year on it, but think of it like a forced vacation...

shadowofnight

audiobliss wrote: »

Holy crap. $100k - 150k is middle class?

I guess I should go stand on the street corner with a sign, then! :eek:

Its middle class here in the Bay area......

sucks2beme

What happend to the news?????

When I was young, I had a shortwave receiver. Listening to BBC or other newscasts
always was different. All domestic news sources have an angle
they use to look at events. All news is biased. That's a fact.
A someone different approach by BBC would give you a whole
new prospective to what was going on. Still biased, but different.
Best class I ever had was a media class. The goal of the class was
to see what was the hook advertisers or media was going for.
All editors at a newspaper follow a trend. Identify the trend,
and you can read between the lines to see the real picture.

Speaking of that, the local newspaper, who refuses tobacco ads,
had a Camel snus color glossy inset it and a free coupon.
It was small and kinda just falls out of the paper, demanding attention.
What the hell is snus? Polictically correct snuff?

hearingimpared

I think eliminating the income tax and instituting a Federal sales tax on all but necessities would solve all our tax problems. You can't avoid buying things. The only issue would be what to set the tax at.

This way everyone pays and if it put a hurting on the lower class or poor, apply exemptions for them that would make it fair.

BaggedLancer

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think eliminating the income tax and instituting a Federal sales tax on all but necessities would solve all our tax problems. You can't avoid buying things. The only issue would be what to set the tax at.

This way everyone pays and if it put a hurting on the lower class or poor, apply exemptions for them that would make it fair.

Cool idea. I'd like it better if we taxed imported goods say 8% and goods made in the USA 4%....or something along those lines. Need to start enforcing what MADE IN THE USA means.

bobman1235

BaggedLancer wrote: »

Need to start enforcing what MADE IN THE USA means.

To me, it means "it costs too much." Or, equally likely, "made by illegal Mexicans in the USA".

BaggedLancer

bobman1235 wrote: »

To me, it means "it costs too much." Or, equally likely, "made by illegal Mexicans in the USA".

I see that point as well.....the Great Wall of Mexico is sounding better and better.

There are still alot of companies in the USA that live up to the MADE IN USA name. Just a strange one I remember off the top of my head from hearing about it was Miller Welders which is why they are so expensive. But from what I heard they make the best of the best welders.

In the end I guess "Made in USA" can mean nothing or it can mean everything. Depends on the company and what is being produced.

McLoki

SKsolutions wrote: »

I consider 100K to 150K to really be middle class if you have have kids, at least in my neck of the woods

Here you go -
$30k-$62k per year is the middle 33% nation wide.

If you earn over $77.5K per year, you are in the top 25% of income earning households in america and become one of the greedy, selfish **** that actually think you are more entitled to your money than the government is.

Facts hurt.

BTW - $350K and up is the top 1% of wage earners. If $150K per year is median HH income in your area, you just live in a rich neighborhood. Everyone wants to consider them selves "middle class" and claim "rich" starts somewhere north of double your current income, but it often just aint so...

Michael

Sami

BaggedLancer wrote: »

Cool idea. I'd like it better if we taxed imported goods say 8% and goods made in the USA 4%....or something along those lines. Need to start enforcing what MADE IN THE USA means.

What happened to free trade?

The working class in US is pricing themselves out of competitive market but then again, Chinese are going to face the same problem as standard of living rises there. What I've heard from manager there is that their local workers have a very high rate of turn around, they will leave their jobs if they get $1 more annually from somewhere else.

TroyD

BL,

That idea has been tried and failed, back in the Depression....it was known as the Smoot-Hawley act.

Google it and do some reading.

BDT

tonyb

If it wasn't for the rich,the rest of us would be out of work.You think poor folks open warehouses,open dealerships,brokerage firms,law offices,retail stores? Now it is true poor folks can start their own gig but they won't employ the numbers the rich do.Like it or not we depend on the rich for jobs.Wanna be a big shot?? Put up the coin and risk it all,they did.Some didn't make it but some did.Why should they be penalized?Don't like your life? Then change it.Thats the beauty of this country.Yeah,it's hard to break old habits but you do what ya gotta do.What I am hearing here is a bunch of cry baby's who are upset they are not as well off as others.Sounds sooo familiar.........! Look,we all have the power to change our lives for the better,question is,are you willing to make the sacrifices that need to be made to get there?

sucks2beme

Play nice guys. Or I'll send in the angry nun with a ruler.

nms

sucks2beme wrote: »

Play nice guys. Or I'll send in the angry nun with a ruler.

Man the yardsticks!

MSALLA

The fact of the matter is, there is plenty of money to be made in this country. I know guys who quit high school who are making over $200 grand a year. One has a landscape business and the other a blacktop company. Both broke their asses and work 7 days a week 10 to 12 hour days. Taxes are never going to go down and will go up every year. If you want to raise your kids in a safe town, it's going to cost you. If you think most small business owners (the backbone of our country) work 9 to 5 your crazy. Most of the time they are the first ones in and the last to leave and the most stressed person in the office. All you need in this country to make money is to be willing to work as much as you can and use the brains god gave you.

There are people who complain about having to work so much and people who sign up to work christmas day because it pays double time and 1/2.

McLoki

tonyb wrote: »

If it wasn't for the rich,the rest of us would be out of work.You think poor folks open warehouses,open dealerships,brokerage firms,law offices,retail stores? Now it is true poor folks can start their own gig but they won't employ the numbers the rich do.Like it or not we depend on the rich for jobs.Wanna be a big shot?? Put up the coin and risk it all,they did.Some didn't make it but some did.Why should they be penalized?Don't like your life? Then change it.Thats the beauty of this country.Yeah,it's hard to break old habits but you do what ya gotta do.What I am hearing here is a bunch of cry baby's who are upset they are not as well off as others.Sounds sooo familiar.........! Look,we all have the power to change our lives for the better,question is,are you willing to make the sacrifices that need to be made to get there?

Tony for Prez....

hearingimpared

McLoki wrote: »

Tony for Prez....

He's already the Capo de Cavalier at the Knights of Columbus!:D

SKsolutions

McLoki wrote: »

Here you go -
$30k-$62k per year is the middle 33% nation wide.

If you earn over $77.5K per year, you are in the top 25% of income earning households in america and become one of the greedy, selfish **** that actually think you are more entitled to your money than the government is.

Facts hurt.

BTW - $350K and up is the top 1% of wage earners. If $150K per year is median HH income in your area, you just live in a rich neighborhood. Everyone wants to consider them selves "middle class" and claim "rich" startsomewhere north of double your current income, but it often just aint so...

Michael

Facts hurt? I'm not sure I follow, but here

~At no time did I ever state that 100-150K what middle class. I said "what I consider middle class in my neck of the woods", AND I also posted a link to the figures Nationwide for anyone that wanted to check.

~If you live in a metro region like SF, NYC or Boston, you can pay 200K for a parking spot, let alone daily expenses. So, income is relative to where you live, and what it costs to live there. To have the wherewithal to have an extra car that you like but don't need, or take more than a 1 week vacation to a different country every year are signs that you might be middle class. If you can't afford to take a month off because you are sick, and the rent or mortgage is due, you are not.

~The class stratification is increasing, and that is why the top 1% paid a little more over the last couple of years. As this continues, we work more, stress more, sleep less, eat crap, commute further, drink more:D, and die an average of 7 years less than similar countries. Something to think about.



Yes, my earning is above 77.5K per year, but it does not make me:

McLoki wrote: »

one of the greedy, selfish **** that actually think you are more entitled to your money than the government is.

Here is another fact: There is absolutely NO government money, ONLY taxpayer money.

Michael, I seen your living room, and you have no class:D middle or otherwise:eek:

JK,
Sean

mrbigbluelight

SKsolutions wrote: »

Here is another fact: There is absolutely NO government money, ONLY taxpayer money. Sean

I do believe it would be more accurate to say, "There is no government money, there is no taxpayer money, there is only federal reserve money."

McLoki

SKsolutions wrote: »

Michael, I seen your living room, and you have no class:D middle or otherwise:eek:

JK,
Sean

Just yankin' your chain (and of course, you are correct....)

Back to your regularly scheduled news watching....

Michael

tonyb

hearingimpared wrote: »

He's already the Capo de Cavalier at the Knights of Columbus!:D

WTF!!!! Joe,I said sshhhhhhh............:):p

jdhdiggs

SK, have you visited those countries? I have, and I've done business in almost all of them. If you think being taxed at 60-70% of your income just so all social services are paid for isn't socialism, or having someone be locked into a job and unable to be fired regardless of performance (by gov't mandate), well, I can't help you. There is such a thing as socialism in democracies. It isn't neccessarily one way or the other.... The US has several socialist policies like social securtiy, medicare/medicaid etc.... Fortunately we are still way down the ladder of that scale.

As for your comments about India, you may want to re-read my post. I was only comparing populations.

Joe: Read about the fair tax. It give you the rates and everything.

Anyway, my wife shoved two of her leg bones into the dirt after a fall while rockclimbing and I just spent the last 48 hrs travelling to get home so I'll be done with this thread and taking care of her now. Cheers!

Sami

jdhdiggs wrote: »

SK, have you visited those countries? I have, and I've done business in almost all of them. If you think being taxed at 60-70% of your income

If you're in that tax bracket then you'll still have plenty left to spend. The middle class would fall into the 30-40% most likely, depending on the country. I'm paying 30-35% here in the US after all SS, federal and medicair taxes and I'm probably in the upper middle class. Don't get free health care, although employee pays for it, don't get free education (college) for my kids like I would in Europe, don't get cheap government provided child care.

Sure, I make more here in the US after taxes but when you add up all the services you have to pay for, it's not as bad difference as it first seems. On top of that, if I want the same level of basic education for my kids, I'd have to put them to a private school in here and that costs a lot of money.

Sorry to hear about your wife, take good care of her!