James Randi extends the million dollar challenge
Comments
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Actually, it should make us all feel damn good that we can easily hear the differences and this guy cannot. Our minds and ears are always open. Why close them?
So go collect the million dollars already. -
Randi's challenge is not about good sound, it is about quantifying differences between types of wire.
Have you read anything?
"we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation."
Also, its about Monster Cable versus Pear Cable. -
James Randi claims that you can't tell the difference by A/B testing between speaker wires.
If the speaker wires are of the same diameter and approximate distance, that is, they have the same impedance then the test may be valid. The test protocol is the most important item here. Nobody's defined the protocol so it's hard to comment of the protocol. -
Nobody's defined the protocol so it's hard to comment of the protocol.
As I said above, you design the protocol. From the rules:
>>>All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.<<<
They even conduct the test in your own home. You can use your own equipment. I really don't know what you guys are waiting for. If you can really tell the difference, you get 1 million dollars, and end the cable debate forever. -
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Do they say what that "relatively simple" preliminary test consists of???? they could very well doing something that basically makes it impossible to tell a difference? You know, even I can notice differences between some cables._________________________________________________
***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***
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SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
This should be an easy $1M for a lucky Pear Cable employee.
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I find it most interesting that one of the readers wrote in claiming he worked for Luca's sound...the same Luca's that created THX standards...the same standards that are so clearly advertised on Monster Cable packaging....talk about sticking your foot in your mouth. If a cable is a cable why have THX standards?
I love the second reader who wrote in talking about his friends speakers which were freshly unpacked with zero hours on them...I have a feeling many of the people who wrote into to support the 'million dollar offer' shop at Best Buy. -
I love the second reader who wrote in talking about his friends speakers which were freshly unpacked with zero hours on them...I have a feeling many of the people who wrote into to support the 'million dollar offer' shop at Best Buy.
I thought that was pretty misleading as well. I do believe in speaker break in.Sharp Elite 70
Anthem D2V 3D
Parasound 5250
Parasound HCA 1000 A
Parasound HCA 1000
Oppo BDP 95
Von Schweikert VR4 Jr R/L Fronts
Von Schweikert LCR 4 Center
Totem Mask Surrounds X4
Hsu ULS-15 Quad Drive Subwoofers
Sony PS3
Squeezebox Touch
Polk Atrium 7s on the patio just to keep my foot in the door. -
So who's applied for the test so far?
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Where do you sign up?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation."
The problem here is the wording "not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation" So, Randi is accepting that there are, indeed, differences that can be heard, and measured... so what is the point to this?
He admits that instrumentation AND perceptive ears can tell the difference between the wires... or at least may, yet he is trying to prove there are no performance differences?!?! It doesn't even make sense. What are his qualifications, that you must own at least one Bose Lifestyle system in your life and still love it to this day? That you must fail a basic hearing test to a certain degree? That you must listen ONLY to low bitrate lossy internet radio?
It doesn't make sense. Like I said, either it is very easy to get this million, or he has engineered this testing protocol to "weed out" anyone or anything that would come to the (rightful) conclusion that there are certainly going to be differences between wires.
I am beginning to agree with the people that say this is a monster products viral advert. -
He admits that instrumentation AND perceptive ears can tell the difference between the wires...
He said dogs ears, not "perseptive" ears. I believe it was meant to be a little sarcastic.Like I said, either it is very easy to get this million, or he has engineered this testing protocol to "weed out" anyone or anything that would come to the (rightful) conclusion that there are certainly going to be differences between wires.
Again, you create the testing protocol, it must be agreed upon by both parties. -
I think A/B testing is great for comparison. (Since simultaneous comparison is impossible.) I've come to the conclusion that living with speakers, or cables and listening to a variety of material over time is the best way to get to know them.
My tests have been fairly unscientific because I've been unable to control all the variables like making sure both sources have the same volume, etc, but I've still learned a lot in the process playing around with how speakers sound in different rooms, and with different placement in the room, and three different humble AVR's.
I think quality makes a difference up to a point for an individual and then further improvements taper off or get you different but not necessarily better. Also, I think I have to be educated to notice and appreciate aspects of what I'm hearing so experience probably brings a lot to and speeds up the process for those who have it.
I think aspects which don't affect sound also influence our perception of sound - like how speakers look, how much they cost, etc. Still if someone is benefiting from a placebo effect, I wouldn't want to rob them of it.
This would be an awesome thing to try at Polkfests and be scientific about it. If kept private, it wouldn't put products or people on the spot. (No one would be forced to take the screen name tin ears.) A listener could listen to say 5 different sources or cables only being informed when a change was made and record for themselves what they noticed. Then the person at the controls could hand them a list of what they were hearing, just to help that individual discover what he or she liked.
Gotta play Time from DSOTM through different rigs and put markers (masking tape? Pictures of the clocks?) by where the different clocks are localized - cuckoo here, grandfather here - as a visual representation of the soundstage. Would be fun to discover the results. I guess you'd have to measure the results distance wise, b/c it'd be difficult to move the rigs around. Then graph and overlay the results with 3-D imaging software and view them through polarized glasses.
Maybe we could even try this at home and post individual results.
Nice post. I agree and would also like to take part in such a session. -
I've always believed this debate to be an endless circle with two camps (objective vs subjective) unwavering. While I won't state my own personal views (as it is, in the long run, immaterial); I think that if a person is content tweaking and buying items for either real or imagined benefits, more power to them. It's their money and if it brings contentment to them visually, aurally, or otherwise, who is to say they are 'wrong'? No amount of A/B testing, regardless of methodology will change that person's mind. And why does it have to be changed to begin with? This hobby is about fun and musicial enjoyment. I'm sure there are many paths to achieve it and to each their own. Just my .02 cents...
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I've always believed this debate to be an endless circle with two camps (objective vs subjective) unwavering. While I won't state my own personal views (as it is, in the long run, immaterial); I think that if a person is content tweaking and buying items for either real or imagined benefits, more power to them. It's their money and if it brings contentment to them visually, aurally, or otherwise, who is to say they are 'wrong'? No amount of A/B testing, regardless of methodology will change that person's mind. And why does it have to be changed to begin with? This hobby is about fun and musicial enjoyment. I'm sure there are many paths to achieve it and to each their own. Just my .02 cents...
Another nice post. WOW. I agree with your post completely.
Subjective impressions in audio are very important because they are real and new. But that doesn't mean they are related to new speaker wire or the new amplifier you just paid for. They could be related to the raise you just got or the meat that you ate last night that is repeating. The objective part can sometimes tell if the impressions are related to the wire or amplifier by doing the testing. Yes the testing is not perfect but if done correctly it will show that the impression is valid and repeatable. That is the benefit of good objective A/B testing, it can tell you if you ears are telling you the truth.
My ears have lied to me. -
That is the benefit of good objective A/B testing, it can tell you if you ears are telling you the truth.
My ears have lied to me.
Some people can't handle the truth. Which is fine, unless they are trying to get me to spend my money on their widgets. -
That was your brain, not your ears. The only way your ears lie is if you have spent your day next to a jackhammer or some ****.My ears have lied to me.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Mine too, LOLAnother nice post. WOW. I agree with your post completely.
Subjective impressions in audio are very important because they are real and new. But that doesn't mean they are related to new speaker wire or the new amplifier you just paid for. They could be related to the raise you just got or the meat that you ate last night that is repeating. The objective part can sometimes tell if the impressions are related to the wire or amplifier by doing the testing. Yes the testing is not perfect but if done correctly it will show that the impression is valid and repeatable. That is the benefit of good objective A/B testing, it can tell you if you ears are telling you the truth.
My ears have lied to me.
I HAD to learn the hard way myself.
I was into silver wire that George Cardas farted on, cryogenically treated connectors,etc, etc, etc.
Been there, done that, realized it was all BS.
I even had my freaking wires insulated off the floor!
Everything was silver soldered, only the "best" of everything, etc, etc, etc.
I HAD to learn myself by testing my ears played tricks on me.
I WAS a "die hard" at one time, and "looked down my nose" at those who dared to disagree.
Controlled listening showed me the light.
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There are differences in copper vs. silver. That's where I've heard the most noticeable change in sound on my rig. Not always positive, a change nonetheless.
All I care about is how cables/wire affects my system in my room with my music, so I really have no desire to try this little experiment. A million dollars wouild be nice, but I'm sure the test is set up in such a way so that it's next to impossible to win the money.
****YAWN****
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Mine too, LOL
I HAD to learn the hard way myself.
I was into silver wire that George Cardas farted on, cryogenically treated connectors,etc, etc, etc.
Been there, done that, realized it was all BS.
I even had my freaking wires insulated off the floor!
Everything was silver soldered, only the "best" of everything, etc, etc, etc.
I HAD to learn myself by testing my ears played tricks on me.
I WAS a "die hard" at one time, and "looked down my nose" at those who dared to disagree.
Controlled listening showed me the light.
Yet you will spend hundreds and hundreds on esoteric capacitors and pontificate about how they all sound different. How is that any different than silver vs. copper material?
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Again, you get to set the rules for the test. Can any of you guys read?There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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You know, it could have been your speakers not being resolute enough.Been there, done that, realized it was all BS.
I even had my freaking wires insulated off the floor!
Everything was silver soldered, only the "best" of everything, etc, etc, etc.
I HAD to learn myself by testing my ears played tricks on me.
I WAS a "die hard" at one time, and "looked down my nose" at those who dared to disagree.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
"Taste tests, hearing tests, tactile tests, visual tests, memory tests, ect. none of these are absolute and any test can be set-up to skew a particular outcome."
Really? How about the "Nothing Was Changed And All The Audiophiles Heard A Difference Test". By putting the cd player on pause for a few moments (to allow for the cables to "not" be changed out) and then restarting it? Skewze me, but, I don't think so. Now maybe if someone opened the window during the pause, letting in different air and changing the entire molecular structure of the room.... YES, this of course could've skewed everything. -
Different animal H9Yet you will spend hundreds and hundreds on esoteric capacitors and pontificate about how they all sound different. How is that any different than silver vs. copper material? -
Some of the Tests were done with Beverage 2 SW 2's Elecrostatics, arguably some of THE most detailed, iaging speakers ever made.You know, it could have been your speakers not being resolute enough.
I had Acoustat 1 + 1's electrostats when we "switched" interconnects, but NONE were ever switched.
We ALL heard a "difference" when no difference was to be heard, LOL
I do THINK I hear differences in capacitors, although no a/b test has ever been done.
Capacitors have measurable differences I believe to be audible, but I have never done a/b testing. -
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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Again, you get to set the rules for the test. Can any of you guys read?
They seem to keep ignoring this. They would rather make excuses, than collect 1 million dollars. Go figure. -
They seem to keep ignoring this. They would rather make excuses, than collect 1 million dollars. Go figure.
When are you going to win the $1M? You keep saying it's so easy, so put up......or (you know how the rest goes)"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
