James Randi extends the million dollar challenge
unc2701
Posts: 3,587
If you haven't heard of him, he's the guy who's had $1,000,000 sitting out there wait for anyone who can prove they have paranormal abilities. As yet, no one has claimed it... well, he added speaker cables to the challenge:
http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4
Any takers?
http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4
Any takers?
Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
Post edited by unc2701 on
Comments
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Sure! Think he'll come to my house?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You know what? That million is now very easy to get... just grab some 20g crappy wire and some good 12g speaker wire, not too expensive, but quality... Hell you can even use his crappy monster cable as the control... it doesn't matter.
Then put a digital scope on it and play the same signal with both, then do a compare to see the differences. I mean seriously... there is no electrical engineer in the world that will tell you all wire is the same no matter what guage or material. If this guy really did add speaker cable to the list, he just lost 1 million dollars.
It is physically impossible for even two wires from the same company to be exactly the same. Doesn't this guy know anything about physics, materials science, or just common sense?
Some people like to bash audiophiles for certain things... some things diserve bashing (clever little clocks, brilliant pebbles, nonsense) but when it comes to actual phyisical science, there is no way anyone can say that there are NO DIFFERENCES between two types of wire. All electrical conductors are subject to the laws of physics, and the limits of industrial manufacturing. -
He specifically gave two specific cables to compare - some Monster Cable and some 7500 dollar cable.If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
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I wouldn't be suprised if behind the scenes, M* sponsored this.
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From the Audio Critic:
"Any amplifier, regardless of topology, can be treated as a “black box” for the purpose of listening comparisons. If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them."
He has compared $5000 amplifiers with $300 amplifiers and nobody can tell the difference if the above requirements are met. There is one more requirement: both amplifiers sound level must have matched levels to within 0.10dB of each other. This requires a bit of time to set up with an accurate microphone, dB meter and signal generator.
Also, the person doing the A/B testing is allowed to listen to any music for any amount of time at any volume any place even in your home. After you are done listening with the A/B switch for as long as you need to get comforable with the set up he will match the sound level outputs to the speakers to with in 0.10dB. There is no rush to pick A or B, you take all the time you need.
No one has been able to tell any difference between the amplifiers.
Do you believe the Audio Critic? -
Nope. Audio signals are extremely detailed analog a/c electrical signals. It is phyisically impossible for two examples to be exactly the same. One tiny change in anything can have an effect on the signal without a doubt. We are living in a universe bound by the laws of physics, and under that, the laws of quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "indistinguishable" except on "paper" (as in conceptually).
Humans do not possess the technology to make this happen in the real world. I mean christ, sound passes through freaking AIR before it hits your ears... if there was ever a time when some people need to understand chaos theory it is these people making such claims.
Did we suddenly gain the ability to build poweramps and speaker wire on the atomic level? Am I just missing something here or are these people just ignorant? -
Nope. Audio signals are extremely detailed analog a/c electrical signals. It is phyisically impossible for two examples to be exactly the same. One tiny change in anything can have an effect on the signal without a doubt. We are living in a universe bound by the laws of physics, and under that, the laws of quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "indistinguishable" except on "paper" (as in conceptually).
Humans do not possess the technology to make this happen in the real world. I mean christ, sound passes through freaking AIR before it hits your ears... if there was ever a time when some people need to understand chaos theory it is these people making such claims.
Did we suddenly gain the ability to build poweramps and speaker wire on the atomic level? Am I just missing something here or are these people just ignorant?
You missed it. Nice rant though. -
Holy crap, it looks like a first year engineering student exploded in here, WTH guys...There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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Do you believe the Audio Critic?
Hell no!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Nope. Audio signals are extremely detailed analog a/c electrical signals. It is phyisically impossible for two examples to be exactly the same. One tiny change in anything can have an effect on the signal without a doubt. We are living in a universe bound by the laws of physics, and under that, the laws of quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as "indistinguishable" except on "paper" (as in conceptually).
Humans do not possess the technology to make this happen in the real world. I mean christ, sound passes through freaking AIR before it hits your ears... if there was ever a time when some people need to understand chaos theory it is these people making such claims.
Did we suddenly gain the ability to build poweramps and speaker wire on the atomic level? Am I just missing something here or are these people just ignorant?
The audio Critic is saying with A/B testing no one could tell the difference with their ears between the two amplifiers. You are correct that no signals are exactly the same. -
Hell no!
Well I have never taken his A/B test with his requirements but I find his test procedures very interesting and detailed.
Does anyone believe in these organizations, AES (Audio Engineering Society) and IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). The Audio Critic bases all his measurements and tests on the procedures as written up by them. -
I have been an audiophile a long time.
It had to be demonstrated to me, old beliefs die hard.
I dumped a Krell Transport and a Cal Audio Labs in favor of a JVC CD Changer.
Why ?
Because none of the 3 hard core audiophiles heard any difference.
Did a test with interconnects too, we all listened, as someone switched the interconnects behind a blind.
We ALL "heard differences" between interconnects 1, 2, and 3, LOL
Problem was, NOTHING was ever switched :eek:
I have a great amount of respect for the Audio Critic, he ONCE was "one of us" until he learned.
The MIND is a powerful thing.
It is interesting that Peter Walker of Quad used electrical extension cords as his speaker wire at shows.
And Dan Dagostino of Krell used to suggest no larger then 14 gauge wire!
EVEN on Apogees, and they were 1 ohm.
Yep, saw it for myself at a CES show in the Krell Room.
I DO hear differences in amps and preamps, for sure.
Hey,, remember Julian Hirsch from Stereo Review ?
Julian was a ham like me, and I talked to him on the air an several occasions.
I asked him why he said he did not hear differences in amps.
here is what he told me.
He said he DID hear small differences in amps, but did not consider them significant.
Unlike many of us, Julian USED tone controls.
He felt that after two amps were optimized with tone controls, differences disappeared.
So, I Tried it, and he was right for the most part, except for tube amps.
However, I do not use tone controls.
I really WISH I did not have so much "high end audiophile" in me, LOL
One of THE best overall systems I have ever had was an old Pioneer Top Of Line Receiver with Klipsch CF 4's version 1's.
The Pioneer is unique in that it has several memories powered by remote control.
You can program each of the 8 memories as you wish, like me more one would be bass plus two and treble minus one, memory two can be bass flat, treble up three, etc, etc, etc.
You then remotely switched between each memory as you played a CD.
I seldom found a Cd I could not make sound better with tone controls on the Klipsch CF 4's.
But, again my right brain battles my left brain,and like a dumb **** I sold the Klipsch CF 4's!
STILL got the old Pioneer, and it's remote.
STILL looking for Klipsch CF 4 Version ones too!
I had several audio friends hear them with tone controls, and not ONE said they did not sound better with tone controls then in bypass.
I once had a conversation with Richard Vandersteen.
He is not a friend, nor do I know him either.
I called him because there were a pair of old Vandersteen 4's on AudioGon.
he told me NOT to buy them.
he surprised the heck out of me when he told me that he felt the stupidest thing preamp manufacturers ever did was to take the tone controls OUT of today's preamps.
He said he uses tone controls for some recordings!
Peter Walker of Quad when asked about tone controls said "Of COURSE we use tone controls, we listen to music, NOT product". -
Ka7niq
I have a Revox amplifier that has remote controlled treble and bass.
And the balance and speaker A or B is remote controlled.
I use them also. -
Amps, cables, speaker wire, pre-amps all have changed the sound in my system. I do not believe in tone controls simply because the ones provided by manufacturer's don't have the ability to correctly compensate for shortcomings in source material. I don't believe in EQ's no matter how fancy or how the octaves are split. Now give me the multi track master recording and a good EQ and I'll have some fun.
The Audio Critic is allowed his opinion, but it's just that; his opinion. I won't ever believe what anyone says when my own hearing, with my own rig at my own place tells me different.
Blind tests are not consistently repeatable nor consistently reliable no matter in what situation they are applied. Taste tests, hearing tests, tactile tests, visual tests, memory tests, ect. none of these are absolute and any test can be set-up to skew a particular outcome.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
[QUOTE=Blind tests are not consistently repeateable nor consistently reliable no matter in what situation they are applied. Taste tests, hearing tests, tactile tests, visual tests, memory tests, ect. none of these are absolute and any test can be set-up to skew a particular outcome.
H9[/QUOTE]
Is there any A/B test data that would change your opinion?
You are right that the tests may not be absolute, but nothing is.
The A/B tests are used to determine is a pill helps a person get better.
Not trying to piss off anyone but I never knew about this type of A/B testing with very exact loudness matching of the levels. -
Is there any A/B test data that would change your opinion?
No......unless it corrolated to what my ears hear. I'm not big on data as it can be presented in such a way as to either reinforce or negate a POV just by manipulating it's presentation.
I know I sound like a paranoid delusional quack
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I just take all data in any situation with a grain of salt and then try to understand where the data is coming from and how it relates to the big picture."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
No......unless it corrolated to what my ears hear. I'm not big on data as it can be presented in such a way as to either reinforce or negate a POV just by manipulating it's presentation.
I know I sound like a paranoid delusional quack .
I just take all data in any situation with a grain of salt and then try to understand where the data is coming from and how it relates to the big picture.
You sound perfectly normal. Data can lie. Look at the Cold Fusion boys and their lies.
What if you set up the test and recorded the data? -
What I was trying to say was that if a difference is there, no matter how minute, it is going to be audible. We could go on all day about the varying sensitivity of the human ear and it's limits, but frankly, knowing the mind and body as well as I do, I would not trust anyone that says "no distinguishable difference" and then puts a period at the end.
If you can measure the difference on instruments, then there is a chance, no matter how minimal, that it can be heard. -
If you can measure the difference on instruments, then there is a chance, no matter how minimal, that it can be heard.
I will add that even if the difference is NOT measureable, we may still hear a difference.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Yes... A/B testing is flawed from the very start. You are taking random people, with random ears, with random understanding of audio, and asking them to try to find a difference between several examples.
Number 1: They do not know what to listen for.
Number 2: Every ear has a unique freq. response, and testers rarely (if ever) map the freq. response of the listeners ears to cross-compare to the original objective (assuming measurements were made to the audio with instruments prior to the test).
Number 3: Every doctor knows patients lie. There is no way to know with 100% accuracy the validity of hearing tests.
Number 4: Context, each listener in an a/b test has a different contextual history with respect to audio... a bias, if you will. There is no such thing as the perfect ear, just as there is no such thing as the perfect training for listening and reviewing, and besides, even if there was, there would still be bias towards what the listener prefers in musical taste, or just what they might find pleasing to the ear (Is this nature or nurture? How can you test for this?)
Number 4: A/B testing is akin to a focus group... and the results from these types of tests are still being debated whether they help or hurt. An expert in one area would have a different opinion than an expert in another area... and this goes beyond field, bias is everywhere.
Number 5: There is not even a settled standard on how a proper A/B test should be administered, and who would oversee the test? Yet another human with his/her own tastes, biases, context and history with audio/music, ect. The very questions that the listeners are asked can even sway the results.
I do not trust A/B blind testing, and I do not think anyone should. Testing can very easily be arranged to sway the results in whatever direction one wants... there are any number of variables that can have an effect on the listener's choice that go well beyond the audio signal itself. (and yes, even with A/B testing, the signal must pass through chaotic matter, how many times can a test be administered to counteract this? How does one even go about figuring this out?)
In fact, this guy has proven this very thing with his stunts. If you read about his history, he has made himself known by "breaking" tests that appear to the outside observer, to be done in a controlled manor.
Heiney9: I agree completely with what you have said. The human brain is the most powerful computer that we have access to, and we barely understand it. There is no doubt there are things that have not been measured that still have an effect on the perception of sound. We have only begun to understand some of these things...
Your own ears are the ultimate test, for you, the listener, are the one that must live with what you buy and use... and it is not shameful to enjoy something because YOU think it sounds good, no matter how much it cost.
Either he wants to give away 1 million dollars, or he knows the same things that I just posted, and set his rules accordingly... -
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That is impressive.Ka7niq
I have a Revox amplifier that has remote controlled treble and bass.
And the balance and speaker A or B is remote controlled.
I use them also.
Shhhh don't tell anyone around here you use tone controls, you might get starangled with silver wire and beat with Cardas connectors:) -
I bet no one will ever claim the prize
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Sure, I could use 1 million dollars. WTF is he thinking?unc2701 wrote:Any takers?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Either he wants to give away 1 million dollars, or he knows the same things that I just posted, and set his rules accordingly...
Read up on the Randi challenge. He does not create the test protocol, you do. Obviously they must agree to the protocol, and determine there is no way for you to cheat. -
Sure, I could use 1 million dollars. WTF is he thinking?
Well what are you waiting for, here's your'e chance. -
I'm here for the challenge. I just want to have witnesses that verify HE is not cheating.
You know, since I can't see and all. ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Damn. All these years and I thought I was hearing great sound reproduction. I guess my ears should learn how to crunch physics equations, quantum or real. Maybe I should read the specs before I listen.
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You ARE hearing great sound if you feel like you are. That is the point of HiFi... Randi's challenge is not about good sound, it is about quantifying differences between types of wire.
For the record, I use tone controls on my NAD sometimes, but I know what differences they make and what the advantages are, to me, and what the downsides are.
An audiophile accepts that everything makes a difference, and decides what improvements are the most important vs. their negatives. It is a delicate balance that we try to maintain, all in the pursuit of good sound within our means (and sometimes beyond!). At the end of the day, we have to be happy with our own systems, and whether or not some washed up magician can hear the difference or not has little to do with the satisfaction that we get.
Actually, it should make us all feel damn good that we can easily hear the differences and this guy cannot. Our minds and ears are always open. Why close them?
